How exactly would space coordinates for planets work?

[Kevin]

So lately I've been rewatching Star Trek: Enterprise and had a random thought as a result of some of the plot elements... how exactly would space co-ordinates for planets work when you consider that planets are typically not in a fixed position?

Now I mentioned Star Trek but the use the coordinates is used by a lot of sci-fi movies, TV shows, and books and they generally all follow the same idea... here's a set of coordinates to a planet, let's go there. And, sure enough, they all end up exactly where the planet is. But how?

Now by contrast consider the gates and, more importantly, the Dial Home Device (DHD) as portrayed in the Stargate (SG) verse. There the DHD takes a chevron encoded address to a gate and then calculates where that gate should be to open a connection. A gate must exist at the destination, you just can't step into your local gate and end up wherever you want. In simpler terms, it's almost like a a computer locating another computer using its IP address.

When the planet is already known about, say humans visiting Vulcan, it'd be one thing to say that the navigation computers can take the co-ordinates and use them with the already known orbit of the planet to take into account where the planet should be currently but if all you have are just the coordinates then how do you end up in the exact spot you should be?

 

[Tom]

Interesting discussion topic!

With a StarGate device, Since they have harnessed ZPE and Nano Technology it is safe to assume that the stargates have a quantum 'Spooky' connection to each other. Which would mean that if the gate exists anywhere, it can be 'found' precisely. That's why moving them for a galactic corridor would work. The chevrons dialed up the quantum signatures of specific gates. The apature opens when that signature is locked in.

In Star Trek and other methods of travel, I imagine the nav computer makes in flight adjustments from sensor readings as the ship gets closer and closer to its destination. Just like NASA makes coarse corrections during its trajectories. NASA launches towards the destination then makes adjustments to accurately arrive at their target. I don't believe any nav is predetermined from the starting point.

In history, Nobody set sail for Plymouth Rock. The explorers headed in a general direction and made coarse corrections based on sexton & Sun. Even after Plymouth Rock was discovered and people knew where is should be, many seafarers missed the mark. As navigation got more refined, they missed the mark less and less.

Most starships in fiction have some kind of NavCom that does all the navigation calculations. The ships navigator sets the destination and the NavCom makes all the corrections in trajectory to arrive where they want.

In Dune, The Navigator Guildsmen, fold space to a thought destination. Their accuracy is based on how well the Steersman knows the planetary system. I liken it to an image drive but it is probably more complicated than that. (I did a short here that explores Thought Drives called Panel Training)

HHG2TG has an Improbability Drive. There is no actual navigation. The ship puts you randomly where its chaos incentive decides.

In Star Wars, Light Drive puts you in the vicinity of a system and thrusting takes you to specific destinations.

 

[Nick Edward Nixon]

This is an interesting question. It has to go like this:

First, you would have a computer network which contains the location and movement of every celestial body. Much as we do today, you set your course based on where that body will be when you "arrive" (speed x distance). (I'm pretty sure that's what we do now, with only minor, almost insignificant course corrections). The computers set your coordinates, make sure you won't be running into some planet mid-leap and bam, engage warp.

There would be instances where you aren't going to a known planet, but instead a spot in space. The coordinates for all space would have already been set up, presumably by some founding organization run by whichever group/government actually expands space travel to such an extent that such coordinates would be needed. (Barring the discovery or capture of some alien technology, that's not likely to happen for hundreds of years.) Then you'd tell your computer where you want to go, sit back and enjoy the ride. (Space Uber)

Aliens won't need to understand our coordinates, they'll have their own (and they won't be in English.)

 

[Kevin]

There would be instances where you aren't going to a known planet, but instead a spot in space. The coordinates for all space would have already been set up, presumably by some founding organization run by whichever group/government actually expands space travel to such an extent that such coordinates would be needed. (Barring the discovery or capture of some alien technology, that's not likely to happen for hundreds of years.) Then you'd tell your computer where you want to go, sit back and enjoy the ride.

But wouldn't that also mean that the corresponding orbits of the planets would also need to be tracked & entered into some type of mutually available database? Whatever organization (or person or probe) spots a new planet for the very first time then besides tracking where the planet is currently wouldn't it need to also stick around long enough to track it's orbital path in order to let others know where it might be using those coordinates?

And welcome to the Soup, Nick!

 

[Kevin]

Most starships in fiction have some kind of NavCom that does all the navigation calculations. The ships navigator sets the destination and the NavCom makes all the corrections in trajectory to arrive where they want.

But how would it do that the very first time you're given a set of coordinates?

 

[Nick Edward Nixon]

But wouldn't that also mean that the corresponding orbits of the planets would also need to be tracked & entered into some type of mutually available database? Whatever organization (or person or probe) spots a new planet for the very first time then besides tracking where the planet is currently wouldn't it need to also stick around long enough to track it's orbital path in order to let others know where it might be using those coordinates?

And welcome to the Soup, Nick!

Thanks. Like I said, it would be network of computers. When I said they'd know the location of every celestial body, I meant at any point in time, which means they would have to track it's movements (i.e., the orbit or whatever). This would be child's play for any decent Cray computer.

As far as the "first time" goes, not sure what you're getting at. Every vehicle would have a three dimensional map just like we have today (ours is more two dimensional). Any spot in space would have coordinates, just like you can walk across the desert and have coordinates (if you have a cell and some bars). Every point on earth has a coordinate. I reckon some countries had a summit a long time ago and came up with our current latitude/longitude system). The same will be done for space, just not any time soon.

The other question to me is how they would do time zones? Stardate? WTF is that?

 

[Kevin]

As far as the "first time" goes, not sure what you're getting at.

I get that the map would need to be 3D, the problem would be that each planet orbits on a axis and the path & axis of that orbit would vary for each planetary body (eg: Earth rotating around the sun versus Venus). Once the planet is spotted and is assigned a set of coordinates then it would also need to be known on what axis does that planet orbit and what is its path in order for a nav computer to then figure out where the planet is at any given time. If the axis & path are not taken into account then a ship coming out of warp could end up on the other side of a solar system with no planet in sight.

You brought up a another good point: The establishment of a starting time and a time measurement that is universally known. If the nav computer has the starting set of coordinate for a planet and if it knows that it takes 365 days to complete it's orbit then it would also have to know which date the coordinates were established in order to calculate it's current position.

 

[Nick Edward Nixon]

There'd be a giant database dedicated to this celestial map. It would contain all map-relevant info, size, mass and movement. If you found a new planet or whatever, your on-board computer would immediately notify all other computers. Information would have to be approved before going system wide, but it would include orbit etc. How would you determine its orbit? I would have to think that the computers figure this out instantaneously based on your movement in relation to it and in relation to all the other stars. It would also figure out the body around which it is orbiting. Even comets have orbits, I think. Might be wrong here, but I don't think orbits are circular in reality.

 

[astonwest]

Massive supercomputers on-board can do all the calculations based on current position, future position, and in-transit maneuvers based on databases, as already mentioned. I don't think that the "empty space coordinates" are that different, because they would just be a spot located some distance and vector from a known position. New information to the database could be a correlation of scanned data from craft that travel through that uncharted region of space, which could easily extrapolate orbits and relativistic motion using time-based data of positions, etc. The more data collected, the more accurate the navigation information available to the remaining users.

That was an interesting tidbit on the "time zones" earlier...for a truly universal navigation system that was time-based (to determine positions of bodies), the passage of time would need to be developed as a constant for everyone, regardless of your local time frame reference (how long your "days" and "years" were, for example), would it not?

 

[Nick Edward Nixon]

Any artificial system would be essentially meaningless to a given species. Creatures on planets will always think in terms of days, and probably years. Unless everyone on a spaceship grew up on that ship, they would too. That would be the exception, I suppose.

 

[Tom]

with only minor, almost insignificant course corrections

In space, over the long distances, minor course corrections equal major changes at the destination.

the corresponding orbits of the planets would also need to be tracked & entered into some type of mutually available database

Not to mention all the debris associated with the entire path to the destination including asteroids, comets and heavy dust clouds.

But how would it do that the very first time you're given a set of coordinates?

The NavCom system includes long range sensors. It 'reads' parsecs of space ahead of the ship over time. Movement is tracked by the super computer and minor adjustments are made to the course. We do the same thing with our eyes when we drive an unknown road.

The same will be done for space, just not any time soon.

Space does have a coordinate grid system. We also know the general movement direction and speed of major celestial objects.

Every vehicle would have a three dimensional map just like we have today

There would be no need for a map. In Star Trek TNG, the Stellar Cartography room was there for research not for navigation. The computer (NavCom) created the display the people looked at. A NavCom will not need a map, It is a map. A smart map that changes constantly in real-time.

on what axis does that planet orbit and what is its path in order for a nav computer to then figure out where the planet is at any given time.

That is like a glass of water against Lake Michigan. For navigating to a planet in a star stystem that is not our own, you would need to know much more about the system than a planets orbital dynamics. The mass and composition of the star and the destination planet, the movement of the star in its galactic plane (the Sun moves up and down in the Milky Way rotational plane), Moons, asteriod belts, comet paths, CME patterns, revolutionary speed changes of planetary orbits and on and on.

The establishment of a starting time and a time measurement that is universally known. If the nav computer has the starting set of coordinate for a planet and if it knows that it takes 365 days to complete it's orbit then it would also have to know which date the coordinates were established in order to calculate it's current position.

Time is subject to relativity. Computer time not human time would be the defining factor. Your laptop operates on a different time scale than a Cray super computer. We liken it to calculations per second but a computer standard time parameter would need to be set between the computers. What you think of as a second may be hours or days in computer awareness. NavComs would be making minute course corrections to the nano-second or faster. A fractional change now might end up in a destination change of an entire parsec. It may take less than a fraction of a second for a NavCom to determine that a sensed object is rolling away and to the top and that course will intersect you unless a minute change is made now.

There'd be a giant database dedicated to this celestial map. It would contain all map-relevant info, size, mass and movement.

More likely, a set of quantum databases for all explored space. NavCom calls up the dataset for the region of space in its destination. Determines its own exact current location and scans for changes in the data that will intersect the desired course.

If you found a new planet or whatever, your on-board computer would immediately notify all other computers.

Like I said - Quantum

I don't think orbits are circular in reality.

Space is big. The Earth does not have a circular orbit but that doesn't mean nothing does. Space is big. There are many unknowns. Sensor data must be collected in detail for any sucessful navigation. The Voyager Probes are much like rocks that are thrown into space. I find it amazing that they have not collided with anything yet. It just tell me that space is big and very sparsely populated, well, at least here in our parent star's influence. Once they leave the safety of the Sun's influence anything goes.

That was an interesting tidbit on the "time zones" earlier...for a truly universal navigation system that was time-based (to determine positions of bodies), the passage of time would need to be developed as a constant for everyone, regardless of your local time frame reference (how long your "days" and "years" were, for example), would it not?

I think the idea of 'Time Zones' is a misleading term. Time Zones are man-made areas related to position. Time needs to be defined as a duration. Right now, we humans have everything set to the second. Even pico-seconds are based on the duration of a second. The super-computers that will be required to navigate the great distances involved with interstellar or intergalactic travel will need to have their own definition of a standard duration. Perhaps future computer time will be set to the duration of the change from matter to energy or energy to matter. It could be the duration of a single quantum change. Perhaps computers will determine the base time as the duration of a single cycle of the Universe's vibration frequency. For humans, time and speed are relevant. That may not be the case for machine intelligence.
All sensor data is gathered and evaluated as past data. When you see something, it is always how it was not how it is. It takes duration for the information to be registered. This stands true whether it is an image you see or a sensor data being processed by a computer. The stars you see tonight are not where they actually are right now. They are where they were when the light left their surface on its path to your eye.
Time in a different part of the solar system, galaxy, Universe is exactly the same. Mars has a wider orbit than the Earth. We live on the Earth so 1 year is relevant to us. On Mars, 1 year is still a year for us. It is just not a year for Mars. On Proxima 1b, We will still experience a year but a native to Proxima 1b may not even acknowledge their year, day, month, hour or second. They may base their detection of duration on anything.
With the computing requirements that will be required for interstellar navigation it is likely that quantum communication will be common. Thus, no matter where you are it will be the same time as any other place.
If it is 4:30 PM at UTC on Earth, it is 4:30 PM everywhere else. It all depends upon where your quantum base is at. That is how StarDate in Star Trek can work.

Creatures on planets will always think in terms of days, and probably years. Unless everyone on a spaceship grew up on that ship, they would too.

To think that the entire Universe is based on human standards is shallow thinking. We have animals (creatures) on our own planet that do not think in human terms. As a matter of fact, humans are the ONLY creatures on this planet that think in human terms. Does your dog recognize how many days are in a year or how many seconds are in a minute? What about a worm? A horse? a chimpanzee? A dolphin?

One of the things I hate about Scifi Space travel movies is that ships arrive at their destinations oriented exactly on the same plane. The Federation and the Romulans arrive at a planet or a destination in open space and they are oriented the same? This could actually happen but why would it?
Think about it. You just traveled a very long distance to your destination. But before you arrive, you adjust your ship to match the orientation of the other ship?

Now, take that scenario and plug in the navigation concept that your destination is predetermined at the start. What is keeping the Romulans from colliding with the Federation at the destination? The NavCom senses and adjusts for the other ship. Navigation is like a cone. The tip of the cone is the destination and the wide part is the origin. The NavCom sets the destination and uses the funneling effect to get there by constantly adjusting its course.

 

[Nick Edward Nixon]

I envision space travel as happening at speeds approaching the speed of light if not warp speeds. I would think that the movements of planets and the tracking thereof is precise enough that there really wouldn't be any corrections to speak of. It would probably depend on the precision of the propulsion system.

I would think any coordinate system we have now would pale in comparison to what would be needed for interstellar travel. Precision and complexity would increase a thousand fold.

Any creature intelligent enough for space travel, having evolved on a planet that has days and nights, and seasons, would measure time using the length of those "days" as its basis. That would translate to all their technology going forward.

 

[Kevin]

@astonwest Thanks for joining the conversation. As you're the creator & author of a series of books dealing with space travelers I was interested in seeing your opinion from a creative perspective on how the problem is handled.


If one day Aston encounters an hereto before unknown alien race and the only thing he has is a set of coordinates provided by the aliens, what, if anything, could Aston do with them?

 

[Kevin]

Any creature intelligent enough for space travel, having evolved on a planet that has days and nights, and seasons, would measure time using the length of those "days" as its basis. That would translate to all their technology going forward.

But in order to share coordinates between races that developed on potentially totally different planets there still needs to be a shared time point of reference and an origin point of reference to allow the sharing of coordinates between them. If there are no established points of reference then any coordinates shared between the two races would be pointless because they'd have different meanings.

 

[Tom]

All depends on IF the alien races consider time and space the same as we do.
To assume that a species from a different part of the galaxy has anything in common with us is ludicrous.
Too many variables both significant and insignificant.

there still needs to be a shared time point of reference and an origin point of reference to allow the sharing of coordinates between them

Encyclopedia Universe

the movements of planets and the tracking thereof is precise enough that there really wouldn't be any corrections to speak of.

Sure, navpoints might get you to the destination but course corrections will still be needed for the actual journey. At sub-light, light and warp speeds even an iron cloud of dust could seriously damage your ship. Yes, you might have deflectors but deflectors are only useful for the space being detected. As far as I know, there is no science fiction ships that project a deflector the entire course of their journey from the gitgo.
Plus, things in space move. Not just planets, stars and galaxies. The only way I see to avoid having to perform course corrections is to instantaneously arrive at point B from point A.

If there are no established points of reference then any coordinates shared between the two races would be pointless because they'd have different meanings.

Like one alien race from the Virgo Super-Cluster trying to tell a race from the Coma Super-cluster to turn right at 7-11 and and its the 3rd planet on the left.

Space is really, really big. Here is a view with a 1 Billion light-year diameter centered on us in the Virgo Super-Cluster. The Universe has been measured to a 14 billion light year diameter. There are 13 BILLION more light years not shown.

There are "things" between the Virgo and Coma super-clusters that will need to be navigated. Things like neutron stars, black holes and great clouds of dust and gas. There are GRB, hyper-novas, super-novas and all sorts of mean nasty things and conditions you probably will not want to fly your ship into.
It may look pretty simple to go from Hydra to Leo but its not going to be a straight shot without unknown perils. Unless you are GOD and have complete knowledge of the entire Universe there is no way you can predict all conditions along the way.

Stand at the top of the stairs.
Have someone put things on the stairs like metal jacks, marbles and clothing.
Walk down the stairs without stepping on anything.
Now, walk back up.
Blindfold yourself but do not move anything on the stairs.
You know your origin.
You know your destination - you have been there before.
Now walk down those stairs.
Try doing that when someone is tossing things randomly in front of you.
The number you will want is 911.

If you put sensors on your feet that beep when you are about to step on something
even blindfolded you will be able to make the journey as long as you heed the warnings and correct your course.

I reread the original post and I believe it has been answered.
Mid-Flight course corrections

 

[Tom]

Here's something that will twist your brain a bit...

You have set up a trade route with a planet in a far off star system.
The navigation is all cut and dry to make the journey.
You engage warp and your deflector dish clears a path to your destination.
You arrive without issue.

During a routine shipment your systems deflect a comet from your path without incident.
That deflection sent the comet into collision with another heavy body that in turn collided with a nearby moon, altering its rotation causing it to crash into a planet. That planet, with its increased or decreased mass now peturbs the rest of the celestial bodies in the system, changing your safe passage to an unknown variable.

The next time you take the trip you find a planet in your way. If you don't have mid-flight course corrections you either stop or you plow your ship into the planet and hope your sheilds are stronger.

 

[Tom]

regardless of your local time frame reference (how long your "days" and "years" were, for example)

Gave this a bit of thought.
Considering the technological advancement required for a species to have interstellar travel it makes sense that they would also have the knowledge of precisely how old the Universe is. Its age down to the pico or nano second may be a Universal time frame.
Depending upon how precise that alien race might be, It might be represented as a number or an equation that is constantly growing by whatever method of measurement they choose. In human terms it may grow by nano seconds. In alien terms it may be tracked by quantum moments or lepton spins or something even more precise.

Since space and time move. Those precise measurements of the age of the Universe might also be included in coordinate systems. Such and such was there at 64 tetra-google lepton spins.

Technological evolution may remove all outdated forms of timeframes from an aliens perspective to the point that days, weeks, hours and minutes are nonsense. Having precision timekeeping ability might make every other reference obsolete.

A Universe Constant would work for any species advanced enough to track it.
Those species would need to know:
The Exact Moment of the Creation of the Universe
The Constant Rate of Duration at which the Universe continues to exist.

From those two calculations any species could subtract the constant rate of time to determine any block of time for any range all the way back to the beginning of the Universe. Since the Constant Rate of Duration is predictable and measurable any species with enough knowledge could detect the same readings. What each species calls that would be up to them.
To translate that into a working common representation a primer of the representation of the birth of the Universe would need to be established then a representation of the Constant State of Duration would need to be established.
If the Constant Rate of Duration is the conversion of matter to energy or the state of frozen to moving, that would need to be represented in such a way that all species in the entire Universe would have the same reference.
Once a common reference is shared, communication would be possible.

 

[Verna]

Hi Kevin, thanks for the invite to the thread! I’ve enjoyed reading all of the theories here. Lots of good points made by all.

This is a very interesting thread for me because near the end of the most recent Rocket Babe, Ant Men, an old and very advanced alien race from Rigel makes contact with the main character. The first thing they do is provide a cipher that will allow her to communicate with them and many other races they say she will encounter. During her time with the Rigelians she learns a great deal about them and the space community within 2,000 light years of our system. They also share that they can easily and quickly cover vast distances, open worm holes at will and travel multiples of light speed. How soon Rocket Babe is able to do any of that is still undetermined but the next storyline will include traveling to a distant star.

For the first 3 books in our own sci-fi series, Rocket Babe, we have confined our travel to our own solar system and using mostly conventional means of flight (sub-light) with the exception of the early development of a basic antimatter reactor for our “space fighters” with a top speed of approx. 1/10th light speed. Think of them as a space version of an F-35 but much larger.

Most of the sci-fi shows I watch feature ships with multiple means of propulsion that give them access to worm holes or warp for distance, magnetic/antigravity or conventional, for local travel and atmospheric, depending on the planet.

As for the huge amount of information needed to arrive precisely at your destination, since the majority of us are probably most familiar with ST I’ll use it as an example. In that series you occasionally hear reference to Stellar Cartography. That's their star chart/mapping/reference system and it’s basically a compilation of computer navigation systems and maps using all members of the Federation to merge all the known information into a single computer nav-system. Beyond that, each star ship has a department for stellar cartography and they are constantly updating the system to provide greater accuracy.

For my 2 cents, I think I understand your question and the simple answer might be that you would begin with the stars and cataloging system you know and if an alien race were to give you co-ordinates to a place you were not familiar with, you would have to work with them to find a way to adapt their reference points to your system then begin plotting a course from a known reference, while allowing for the movement of all the bodies along the way, including your destination. That could only be done if the aliens gave you VERY complete information for your destination; a parabolic course with speed variations along the way as you slow or increase speed to allow objects along the way to clear your path. Even in Rocket Babe we have to "intercept" a planet as we travel. Due to limited speed and great distance we project a course to where it's going to be, not where it is at launch.

Verna

 

[Kevin]

Some really great input from everybody on this one!

Over on Reddit an interesting response came up...

The Golden Record Plaques fixed onto the Voyager 10 and Voyager 11 spacecraft use pulsar (essentially a beacon) locations as a means to help future civilizations locate us if they find/ intercept the spacecrafts.

From the Wikipedia article:
"The drawing in the lower left-hand corner of the cover is the pulsar map previously sent as part of the plaques on Pioneers 10 and 11. It shows the location of the solar system with respect to 14 pulsars, whose precise periods are given..." Citation for the content above.

Take note of the pulsar map in the bottom left-corner...
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipe...yager_Golden_Record_Cover_Explanation.svg.png

The description of the the 14 pulsars on how to find are planet is....

This diagram defines the location of our sun utilizing 14 pulsars of known directions from our sun. The binary code defines the frequency of the pulse.

So, are pulsars something that would be obvious to a traveler on how to identify them correctly across the galaxy?

 

[Tom]

If they navigate by light...who is to say how aliens might navigate? Perhaps they navigate by gravitational specifications. Who knows how precise their readings would be. Has anyone ever tried to quantify the precise gravitational readings of our Sun/Solar system as compared to all nearby and significant distant stars?
What if they have a method to detect systems with life and navigate by known systems with life? "Oh, you guys are almost halfway between the Formatides and the Jokalars"
Perhaps they have set nav beacons around the galaxy and navigate by those beacons. Maybe they navigate by arcs between black holes? Maybe they don't navigate at all and just go wherever their ship will take them.