Politics Abortion

[Jinnie]

I should also add that two of my little brothers should have been, by most prochoice standards, aborted as well...my youngest, Lee (who will be 12 in October), was a fetal alchohol syndrome premie. Today, he never misses the honor roll and shows no sign whatsoever of any health problems.

My second-youngest, Craig (who will be 13, I believe, in August), was a premie whose mother was a drug addict. Yet he's a star athlete who set a city record in track. His school results are hardly perfect (and fall short of Lee's success), but you'll never meet a kid who tries harder.

Prochoice advocates point to these while they are still in the womb as prime candidates to die (and let's stop using nicer words, pregnant mothers do not refer to their babies as their "fetuses"), because my brothers were far cries from "perfect" children. But look at them now. You know another society who killed citizens because they didn't meet a standard? Nazis.

I can't imagine telling a 15 or 16 year old girl who has been raped by her father and gotten pregnant by him that she has to carry the baby to term. To me that's disgusting. And although an extreme case, it does happen.

To me, saddling such a young child with a lifetime of post-abortion depression and other risks is a far worse crime than carrying the child to term and giving him/her to a loving family. Two wrongs don't make a right!

Pointing toward extreme cases to legalize all cases, to me, shows a transparent argument and sets a general standard where one cannot exist because no human being is born the same.

The end.

 

[sugababyboo]

I am not of the opinion that adoption is always the answer (in America at least). There are laws being created and passed restricting homosexuals from adopting or taking of foster kids. Americans are adopting kids from overseas instead of here, in their own country. I'm not saying that it's wrong, but it is a fact and for every overseas child an American adopts, one American child is still parentless. Like Jamison once said there are 127,000 children living in adoption agencies here in America.

I'm also on the same page when it comes to rape or incest, a woman shouldn't be forced to keep a child that was conceived in such horrendous circumstances.

The practice mainly disgusts me because it is used as a method of convenience - "Are you just too busy? Are you too much of a coward to face your parents? Are you poor? Have an abortion! It takes the problem away!"

I have family members who have had abortions and it wasn't a decision that they chose lightly. My cousin did so because she knew that she was too young and too selfish to become a mother. She and the rest of us knew that she would continue acting recklessly (smoking, drinking, drugs etc) while pregnant. She chose to abort the pregnancy.

My other cousin was in a horrible relationship with a man that constantly cheated on her. He had emotional issues as well. On two occasions, he had lied to her about using a condom while having sex with her. In this case, he was trying to "Trap" her. She got pregnant once and aborted it. She didn't want to bring a child into their situation.

Finally, years before I was born, my mother had an abortion. At the time, her, my father and my two older sisters had just arrived in America. My father enrolled himself in college and worked. She stayed home and watched my sisters. They were poor, dirt poor. They both had to work very hard and save to just be considered "lower class". She knew that they couldn't afford to take care of another child. When I was born, they were in a better financial situation and my father had already graduated from college.

In the case of my parents they were poor. This wasn't a decision that she chose without giving a second thought. She knew that she couldn't carry the child and then give it up for adoption because she had already been pregnant twice knowing what it was like to carry a life within her.

 

[Jamison]

I should also add that two of my little brothers should have been, by most prochoice standards, aborted as well...my youngest, Lee (who will be 12 in October), was a fetal alchohol syndrome premie. Today, he never misses the honor roll and shows no sign whatsoever of any health problems.

My second-youngest, Craig (who will be 13, I believe, in August), was a premie whose mother was a drug addict. Yet he's a star athlete who set a city record in track. His school results are hardly perfect (and fall short of Lee's success), but you'll never meet a kid who tries harder.

Prochoice advocates point to these while they are still in the womb as prime candidates to die (and let's stop using nicer words, pregnant mothers do not refer to their babies as their "fetuses"), because my brothers were far cries from "perfect" children. But look at them now. You know another society who killed citizens because they didn't meet a standard? Nazis.
To me, saddling such a young child with a lifetime of post-abortion depression and other risks is a far worse crime than carrying the child to term and giving him/her to a loving family. Two wrongs don't make a right!

Pointing toward extreme cases to legalize all cases, to me, shows a transparent argument and sets a general standard where one cannot exist because no human being is born the same.

The end.

[post="1366189"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]​

It is excellent about your brothers, but those could be looked at as extreme cases as well. Sadly a lot of children don't get adopted or raised in loving homes. A lot grow up in foster care or in poverty their entire lives.

And some women do refer to the baby as a fetus. I knew girls in high school who were getting abortions who did just that to separate themselves emotionally from the being growing inside of them.

It certainly isn't correct to draw a comparison to Nazism. Many pro-choicers don't see the baby/fetus as an actual independent being, and because of this it isn't murder or killing. Nazi's didn't kill fetuses, they killed children and babies who lived outside of the womb of their mother.

You say that you wouldn't want the girl in the example I give to live with post-abortion depression. But could you ever imagine carrying a baby under those conditions? I certainly hope no one has to go through that. But I think it's utterly disgusting to expect her to carry a baby that came from so much violence and hate the full 9 months. Talk about having depression.

And I definitely wasn't pointing towards extreme cases as reason why all abortions should be legal. I just haven't encountered someone who is against abortions in all cases, and therefore was using extremes as an example, since you are even against those. But that certainly isn't my argument as to why all abortions should be legal. I just used it because you are against abortions even in those extreme cases.

 

[sugababyboo]

Let's not forget that being pregnant and giving birth is emotional trying as well. Many women experience depression after giving birth, Marie Osmond did and Brooke Shields talks about it in her new book. She was even suicidal at one point.

Whether a woman has an abortion, gives up a child for adoption or becomes a mother earlier than she expected, she is going to go through the emotional wringer.

 

[Jamison]

Let's not forget that being pregnant and giving birth is emotional trying as well. Many women experience depression after giving birth, Marie Osmond did and Brooke Shields talks about it in her new book.  She was even suicidal at one point.

Whether a woman has an abortion, gives up a child for adoption or becomes a mother earlier than she expected, she is going to go through the emotional wringer.

[post="1366548"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]​

This is very true. Look at Andrea Yates. She was suffering from depression, and drowned her 5 children in a bathtub.

No matter which way you go, depression is a possibility. Especially if you carry the baby to term and it's not wanted.

 

[Sarkney_fan020]

In the case of the last... if you are a mother and not willing to give your life for your child, there's something wrong with you, quite frankly. My little brothers may annoy, but I'd die for them in a heartbeat.

So if a fourteen year old girl is raped and gets pregnant, and if she could possibly die from having that baby, she should be forced to anyway?

I think in the sad cases of rape the girl should definitely have the right to have an abortion. They didn't choose to be pregnant in the first place, why should they have to have a baby under those circumstances?

Nobody should be forced to have a baby that they might possibly die from having.

To me, saddling such a young child with a lifetime of post-abortion depression and other risks is a far worse crime than carrying the child to term and giving him/her to a loving family. Two wrongs don't make a right!

Well, if she was raped she'd be depressed either way. But that's just the thing: it's her choice.

I am not of the opinion that adoption is always the answer (in America at least). There are laws being created and passed restricting homosexuals from adopting or taking of foster kids. Americans are adopting kids from overseas instead of here, in their own country. I'm not saying that it's wrong, but it is a fact and for every overseas child an American adopts, one American child is still parentless. Like Jamison once said there are 127,000 children living in adoption agencies here in America.

Yeah. Adoption doesn't cover every kid.... So saying people should just have the baby and then let it be adopted isn't that simple. Just because some kids are adopted doesn't mean every baby will be.

 

[mystery_chick]

I agree with Jamison that by passing laws against gay couples from adopting only discourage a large amount of adoptions and drives gay couples to have their own bilogical child.

I was actually just doing an article on gay couples having biological children of their own for school the other day. Homosexual couples are actually now leaning towards having a child of their own, with their own sperm or egg with a doner egg or sperm and have a surrogate mother carry it. By preventing gay couples from adopting it only increases the number of unadopted children, but more on that in another topic.

With the issue of depressions, I really think that it's more of a mind set issue rather than of an experience issue. We can look at it two ways. We can say, the girl gets an abortion and later regrets it and she gets depressed or we can say the girl gets an abortion and was glad of the choice that she had made because she had a lot more chances to take because she didn't have a child. In the other case, the girl has the baby and is happy or the girl has the baby and everytime that she looks at the child, it reminds her for a traumatic experience and she regrets having the child and gets depressed. Depression isn't really a set thing becuase you're not going to get depression just because you had an abortion or have a child. Which is why I believe the choice is important because if a girl made a choice than she would take full responsibilities for it.


-Mandy

 

[sugababyboo]

I agree with Jamison that by passing laws against gay couples from adopting only discourage a large amount of adoptions and drives gay couples to have their own bilogical child.

I was actually just doing an article on gay couples having biological children of their own for school the other day. Homosexual couples are actually now leaning towards having a child of their own, with their own sperm or egg with a doner egg or sperm and have a surrogate mother carry it. By preventing gay couples from adopting it only increases the number of unadopted children, but more on that in another topic.

With the issue of depressions, I really think that it's more of a mind set issue rather than of an experience issue. We can look at it two ways. We can say, the girl gets an abortion and later regrets it and she gets depressed or we can say the girl gets an abortion and was glad of the choice that she had made because she had a lot more chances to take because she didn't have a child. In the other case, the girl has the baby and is happy or the girl has the baby and everytime that she looks at the child, it reminds her for a traumatic experience and she regrets having the child and gets depressed. Depression isn't really a set thing becuase you're not going to get depression just because you had an abortion or have a child. Which is why I believe the choice is important because if a girl made a choice than she would take full responsibilities for it.


-Mandy

[post="1366795"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]​

I agree hun and I'm pretty sure that I mentioned gay couples not being allowed to adopt.

 

[_AliasAngel]

With the issue of depressions, I really think that it's more of a mind set issue rather than of an experience issue. We can look at it two ways. We can say, the girl gets an abortion and later regrets it and she gets depressed or we can say the girl gets an abortion and was glad of the choice that she had made because she had a lot more chances to take because she didn't have a child. In the other case, the girl has the baby and is happy or the girl has the baby and everytime that she looks at the child, it reminds her for a traumatic experience and she regrets having the child and gets depressed. Depression isn't really a set thing becuase you're not going to get depression just because you had an abortion or have a child. Which is why I believe the choice is important because if a girl made a choice than she would take full responsibilities for it.

-Mandy

[post="1366795"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]​

I don't think someone who has been through such an awful experience such as let's say rape; would ever even be able to have a child, let alone raise it. Even if it would make someone happy, the aftermath of that kind of experience takes time to heal.
And it's more probable that you can't even think about the child without remebering the ordeal you went through.
And the reason for the depression is the experience. Becasue the mind is connected to the experience, your way of thinking gets totally BLOCKED.
It's true that in any case a girl should have a choice. Whatever the reason, but no one should be able to tell you what you should do with your body, not the governament, not the father of the child, it's YOUR body and YOUR choice.

 

[noggi16]

I don't think someone who has been through such an awful experience such as let's say rape; would ever even be able to have a child, let alone raise it. Even if it would make someone happy, the aftermath of that kind of experience takes time to heal.

I don't think you can make that genralisation. Rape is a horrible crime but to assume everyone that falls victim to it, becomes a victiom is not a good attitude to have. Think positive.

 

[Jamison]

I don't think you can make that genralisation. Rape is a horrible crime but to assume everyone that falls victim to it, becomes a victiom is not a good attitude to have. Think positive.

[post="1368629"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]​

I don't think it's that dangerous of a generalization. Sure some women cope with it better than others. But every woman who is raped is a victim and it does affect her life in one way or another. To force her to have a child that was conceived through so much violence shouldn't be allowed. She should have the choice.

 

[_AliasAngel]

Yeah. I mean it's not like that for EVERYONE. But for some, of course everyone has a different way of dealing.

 

[sugababyboo]

Yes. Rape is a horrific and tramautic crime that violates the victim in more ways than one.Yes, some victims can cope better than others as Jamison said but they are forever changed. It isn't some kind of boot camp where people choose to attend to make themselves stronger.

I think it's wonderful that some victims of rape share their experiences with others trying to help them cope. In that case they're not only victims but also survivors.

 

[Sarkney_fan020]

I don't think someone who has been through such an awful experience such as let's say rape; would ever even be able to have a child, let alone raise it. Even if it would make someone happy, the aftermath of that kind of experience takes time to heal.
And it's more probable that you can't even think about the child without remebering the ordeal you went through.
And the reason for the depression is the experience. Becasue the mind is connected to the experience, your way of thinking gets totally BLOCKED.
It's true that in any case a girl should have a choice. Whatever the reason, but no one should be able to tell you what you should do with your body, not the governament, not the father of the child, it's YOUR body and YOUR choice.

I totally agree. Forcing someone to have a child out of rape is disgusting. :angry:
I can't believe how anyone can say "they should just have the baby" after they went through that. Having a child from the person that raped them could(and most likely will) bring back bad memories. Why should she be forced to carry a child for nine months that she had NOTHING to do with? Unless she wants to, of course. But FORCING someone to do that is as almost a big a crime as rape in the first place, if you ask me.

 

[gurlygirl_89]

women that have been raped have been horribly victimized....so why would they want to turn aroumd and victimize their own child? It's not the child's doing that some basterd raped her. It's not her fault either. So why kill the innocent party? why would a woman that has been thru hell turn around and put her own child to death. It's the victim victimizing. Abortion because of rape is understandable but still not right.

 

[Osiris]

women that have been raped have been horribly victimized....so why would they want to turn aroumd and victimize their own child? It's not the child's doing that some basterd raped her. It's not her fault either. So why kill the innocent party? why would a woman that has been thru hell turn around and put her own child to death. It's the victim victimizing.  Abortion because of rape is understandable but still not right.

[post="1368764"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]​

if you don't want the child, then give him/her up for adoption. there was a famous lady who her mother was raped at the age of 15, and almost had an abortion, now if the mother had, her daughter would never have grown up to do all the wonderful things that she did.

and there was some other lady that didn't abort her daughter (from a rape) and when she first gave birth and looked at the baby, she saw her attacker. then she prayed and asked God to let her love this child anyways, and looked at the daughter and realized it didn't look anything like the attacker, but instead looked just like the lady's grandfather.

 

[Existentialist]

The practice mainly disgusts me because it is used as a method of convenience - "Are you just too busy? Are you too much of a coward to face your parents? Are you poor? Have an abortion! It takes the problem away!"

That kind of trivializes the reasons why women have abortions. I agree, some women do use it as birth control, which is very wrong. Plus, it's quite dangerous, 'cause the more abortions you have, the harder it is on your body, and the more likely that complications will occur. But you, nor anyone else, has the right to judge a woman who chooses to have an abortion (unless this is her third or fourth one, in which case you have to wonder).

To me, saddling such a young child with a lifetime of post-abortion depression and other risks is a far worse crime than carrying the child to term and giving him/her to a loving family. Two wrongs don't make a right!

First off... post-abortion depression is a MYTH. There is no good study (meaning, a scholarly and valid study) that shows post-abortion depression to be something the majority of women who've had abortions face... I've read the meta-analyses and scholarly articles from women's studies/psychology journals.

Secondly... not all children who are adopted get loving families. You and your brothers got lucky. There is no "loving family guarantee" when it comes to adoption.

I should also add that two of my little brothers should have been, by most prochoice standards, aborted as well...my youngest, Lee (who will be 12 in October), was a fetal alchohol syndrome premie. Today, he never misses the honor roll and shows no sign whatsoever of any health problems.

What "most prochoice standards" are you referring to? I'm about as pro-choice as they come, and I don't think alcoholics and drug abusers should necessarily have abortions. Abortion isn't cheap, and many acoholics/drug abusers can't afford to have abortions anyways. Fetal Alcohol Syndrome and babies born with drug addictions now stand a very good chance, even when born premature (as they usually are), thanks to excellent medical advances. Your brothers are evidence of that.

 

[ParadiseKendra]

Wow.  Sorry for my surprise, but I really believe you're the first person I've known who is against abortion in all cases.  Even some of my very religious friends agree that abortions should be allowed in those extremes.  I can't imagine telling a 15 or 16 year old girl who has been raped by her father and gotten pregnant by him that she has to carry the baby to term.  To me that's disgusting.  And although an extreme case, it does happen.
And not related to what I was saying, here are some statistics on abortion...in case anyone was wondering.

[post="1365936"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]​

I was surprised too. There is no way I would *ever* give my child up for adoption. I would never hand my child away to a stranger I don't know and trust them to take care of my child. I would choose abortion, which to me is the actual responsible choice. I know my child is safe, and will come to this earth again as a *wanted* child.

And when you are raped and become pregnant, you are *not* a mother. You are a mother when you choose to be one. It's a choice you make inside your soul. It is not forced inside you when a man inserts a foreign object into your body. You have no reason to become a mother for choices you never made.

You are the one who is innocent and deserves the love, comfort, and acceptance.

Also, yes, abortion is dangerous, but have we forgotten giving birth is also dangerous? How often women die from giving birth and how often the baby dies in the birthing process?

Would anti-choicers permit an abortion to save the mother's life is the baby is going to die anyway, or do they both get to die I wonder?

 

[sugababyboo]

I've never heard anyone compare abortion to Nazism before either. The only connection I can see is with Dr. Joesph Mengele and Dr. Gisella Perl.

Dr. Perl and her family were captured and sent to Auschwitz. She was then chosen to work alongside with Dr. Mengele aka the Angel of Death. She secretly(behind Dr. Mengele's back) performed abortions on camp prisoners because she and the women knew the kind of experimentation/torture their child would endure from Dr. Mengele or just from living in the concentration camp.

 

[noggi16]

I was surprised too. There is no way I would *ever* give my child up for adoption. I would never hand my child away to a stranger I don't know and trust them to take care of my child. I would choose abortion, which to me is the actual responsible choice. I know my child is safe, and will come to this earth again as a *wanted* child.

How is abortion any more responsible than giving a child up for adoption?