Alternate ways to open locks?

[Kuzzle]

ARG! I just typed this huge long thing, but when I went to post it, it was all "Cannot find server" So sit down and shut up, boys and girls, you're getting the chop shop version. Pay attention!

Someone said something about rogues unlocking stuff in town. That got me thinking, since in most games if you can't unlock something on the spot, you're screwed. What are some other ways to handle this?

1: Bashing the lock. Ok, everyone could do it, but stronger characters are better at it. In doing this, you run the risk of breaking the contents(If it's a box, not a door.), but that risk shrinks if you gain XP in lock bashing. There are also tools to help prevent the breaking of contents. Also, bashing a lock on a box requires a weapon, whereas bashing a lock on a door only requires a weapon if you don't want to take out the whole door. Some weapons are more suited for this than others, and weapons have a +/- rating...

2: Ever played Monster Hunter? In it, some of the quests involved you carrying eggs/ores and stuff. You walked at a snail's pace, and your running was none too fast, either. If you dropped it, it broke. Now, I was thinking something like this might work in Hero's Journey, but instead of the whole thing breaking, it would just risk some things breaking if you dropped a locked box. Why? Because, in all honesty, you're not going to break a club by dropping it. This could add the whole "Protect the dude hauling the chest around on his back!" aspect.

I prefer the second one. Discuss!

 

[Daax]

/signed for incredibly smart idea.

*huggles Kuzzle*

 

[Evran]

Rogues - Disable Device
Heroes often find coffers and treasure chests that are trapped and locked. Rogues are adept at disabling traps and locks, thereby helping their fellow adventurers gain access to their hard-won loot.

The most interesting thing I noticed when I looked this up to figure out how to respond was that they mention traps and locks. Perhaps as you say, other classes will be able to open the chests to get at the treasure (possibly not as easily as a rogue) but only rogues would be able to disarm the traps.

I'd actually prefer the method you mentioned in your preamble Kuzzle, so I'm going to add it to your list as option number three. I know you were looking for alternatives, but I just thought I'd give it some legitimacy.

3: Treasure chests drop as ... well, treasure. You accumulate them and then can take them back to town and have a rogue open them for you. Thus, effectively making this a non-combat ability (although if you have a rogue in your combat party, you could just conveniently do it on the spot)

 

[Jaraeth]

"traps & locks"... reminds me of D&D Online... but, I do like the idea, I just hope it doesn't turn into something WoW-esque.

~ Jaraeth

 

[Jaxtron]

There is always the option of a spell that can be cast my a mage of some sort to unlock a chest or door. Perhaps not as reliably as a mechanical unlocking by a rogue but still would give another alternative. Maybe it works 50% of the the time but if it fails, it won't work for that particular caster on that lock.

How about the "skeleton" key? Maybe you can find a universal key that will work in a small percentage of locks. Make them somewhat rare so not everyone has one but hopefully on average, one person in a group would have one. Maybe upon trying, you have a 10% chance the key "works" in that lock. If it doesn't work, no matter how many times you try, it won't work. Maybe you can get better keys that up the percentage to a max of like 25%? To keep the keys rare, give them a chance, upon use, that the key snaps, making the chest unopenable by anyone.

If no rogue, no mage, and no one has a key, let me bash the darn thing and take a chance of the items inside breaking. Shoot, a chance that an item will survive the crusing of the chest is better than no chance to open it at all.

To increase the power of the rogue in the picking, give the chest the possibility it will be trapped. Only the rogue can determine that, disarm the trap and successfully open the lock. Using magic, a key, or bashing the chest will always, upon success, trigger the trap.

Ultimately, a rogue should be the expert in picking locks but I sure hate being in a group, coming upon some chest only to find it locked and we have no way of getting into it. I just know that is going to hold the one item I have been adventuring for all day!!

 

[Sabastian]

In current Simu games:

Lockpicking to open boxes. With different levels of locks and lockpicks.
Take box to NPC locksmith in a town.
Magic Key and/or Door Knob - Point at locked box and turn. Box opens
Magic spell - lets caster reach through box and fish out an item.
Magic spell - cast to unlock box

I'm sure there are more, but those are the five I am familiar with from GS and DR.

 

[Thaos Nightwind]

3: Treasure chests drop as ... well, treasure. You accumulate them and then can take them back to town and have a rogue open them for you. Thus, effectively making this a non-combat ability (although if you have a rogue in your combat party, you could just conveniently do it on the spot)

Oh now I really like this one, along with those mentioned by Sabastian.

Reminds me of how in EQ2 you could still open treasure chest; but you'd better wait until you health regen'd because they were heavily booby-trapped and needed a Ranger or one other class to 'Disarm' them before opening.

But you guys have come up with some great ideas here.

 

[Jaxtron]

3: Treasure chests drop as ... well, treasure. You accumulate them and then can take them back to town and have a rogue open them for you. Thus, effectively making this a non-combat ability (although if you have a rogue in your combat party, you could just conveniently do it on the spot)

WOW pretty much does that. There are still the ocassional chests in dungeons that are stationary and may or may not be locked but monsters you fight have a chance of dropping a treasure chest that is locked. You put the chest into your inventory just like the other loot. You then find a rogue that is willing to unlock those chests so you can get the content.

 

[Oxlar]

Well I hate to be the opposing voice but...

I can tell you that with a long history of table top RPG experience, one of the things my players hated most was when other people had easy ways of accomplishing a skill that was one of the forte's of a character.

For example with the lock thing, yes there are ways in traditional RPGs that allow one to open a lock with such a spell or magic item or what have you. However, it was a huge letdown to the skilled player if those options were overly available to the party because it made others better at something that he spent his whole life trying to be the master of.

This game allows you to combine two classes and then add other Wyr skills to further customize your character. I think this will spread theif like skills out pretty good. I honestly don't think there will be a big lack of skills in this area. I'm not saying you shouldn't allow any other means to bypass a chest or lock, but you should definately make it less accessable and with less effect. I also don't think you should be able to just pack around a whole bunch of chests and then when you get back to town have a thief open them all for you. Chests should be very encumbersome. Maybe you can haul one back. Maybe chests can come in different sizes and have different burdens. The size of the chest can also limit what could possible be in it. If its the size of a pineapple then obviously your not getting any armor or non-small weapons out of it. I'm also not saying that the size of the chest should be an indicator of the potency of the loot inside, just what categories of items it could possibly contain.

On a side note, I do believe that traps and breakage should be instigated for the bashers who will risk it. Fragile items could quite possible be destroyed. And with the traps you could have traps that may destroy the contents or teleport the chest away from the one who triggered it, effectively removing it from the game. This would also give a reason to wanting the chest 'checked for traps' before just bashing away.

 

[Evran]

WOW pretty much does that. There are still the ocassional chests in dungeons that are stationary and may or may not be locked but monsters you fight have a chance of dropping a treasure chest that is locked. You put the chest into your inventory just like the other loot. You then find a rogue that is willing to unlock those chests so you can get the content.

Yeah, its pretty standard in a lot of graphic MMOs and almost universal in text based ones. I just thought I'd officially add it to the list so we didn't forget about it

Oxlar raises a good point about other classes being able to open chests. Wouldn't that debase the concept of a service ability? As long as there would be penalties to opening a chest without a rogue, I could see it working, but without any consequences the rogues of the world would feel pretty bad about their 'special' ability. Traps and item breakage sound like reasonable penalties to me.

 

[Kuzzle]

Well I hate to be the opposing voice but...

I can tell you that with a long history of table top RPG experience, one of the things my players hated most was when other people had easy ways of accomplishing a skill that was one of the forte's of a character.

For example with the lock thing, yes there are ways in traditional RPGs that allow one to open a lock with such a spell or magic item or what have you. However, it was a huge letdown to the skilled player if those options were overly available to the party because it made others better at something that he spent his whole life trying to be the master of.

This game allows you to combine two classes and then add other Wyr skills to further customize your character. I think this will spread theif like skills out pretty good. I honestly don't think there will be a big lack of skills in this area. I'm not saying you shouldn't allow any other means to bypass a chest or lock, but you should definately make it less accessable and with less effect. I also don't think you should be able to just pack around a whole bunch of chests and then when you get back to town have a thief open them all for you. Chests should be very encumbersome. Maybe you can haul one back. Maybe chests can come in different sizes and have different burdens. The size of the chest can also limit what could possible be in it. If its the size of a pineapple then obviously your not getting any armor or non-small weapons out of it. I'm also not saying that the size of the chest should be an indicator of the potency of the loot inside, just what categories of items it could possibly contain.

On a side note, I do believe that traps and breakage should be instigated for the bashers who will risk it. Fragile items could quite possible be destroyed. And with the traps you could have traps that may destroy the contents or teleport the chest away from the one who triggered it, effectively removing it from the game. This would also give a reason to wanting the chest 'checked for traps' before just bashing away.

Hence #2. I agree that you shouldn't remove the "specialness-ity" from the Rogue's lockpicking ability, and that you shouldn't be able to just haul treasure chests around, but you have to be able to transport them in some way... at least, I think so, anyway. Perhaps you could carry them around on a little cart if you don't like the idea of just carrying them around on their own. Or, perhaps the cart would just speed you up, or something...

Don't cha agree that there should also be magical locks, though? I mean, it makes sense... And sure, a rogue wouldn't really be able to pick those, so it'd be up to a wizard, or perhaps a bard. I don't really have a problem with that. I mean, it kind of makes sense for a bard... Not so much so for a wizard, but, yeah, you know what I'm talking about.

Or, and this one's more than a little cooky, a wizard could shrink the box down, making it easier to carry. 'Course, you'd need a wizard to "full size" it again, but I don't think that'd be a real problem.

 

[Luciro]

I know we hate paper, rock, scissors game play but for a treasure chest minigame it'd be fun. As implimented in many places as well...

Some treasure can be obtained by simply smashing the box.
Some can be mechnically manipulated.
Some can be magically opened.

The trick is knowing which. Say you got a basher who just likes bashing things. He'll get his if one of the other two types of locks are engaged. A spell can unseal magical locks, but the machines within a mechanical lock are just too complex and polluted with technology for them to unbind. A lock picker just can't handle the curses offered by the arcane, so they tend to avoid such things.

I think making it so if you do have an option to open a lot a universal 'test' skill can be added. If you don't mess with boxes much, then you don't have to invest in it. If you do, then invest. Be ye basher, caster, or picker.

That's kind of the standard. Tho' some quest designers could get really creative with it beyond such trivial means.

 

[Oxlar]

I think that a thief should be able to determine what type of trap/lock is in place whether its magical or mechanical. I think a mage/bard should only be able to tell if there is a trap if it is magical in nature. If it is mechanical then it still may be trapped. Even with rock/paper/sissors, the theif needs to have the greater weight since this is his forte. Maybe even high level theives can eventually learn how to disarm or unlock magical traps/locks, because that is what he does. Ultimately he could do it all where as others can do some but not all. This gives the least ability to the warrior, some ability to the mage/bard, and complete ability to the specialist thief.

 

[Evran]

The thing to keep in mind is that everyone has 2 classes, so the chances of having the ability to open locks is higher than otherwise. The mage/bard who wants to be able to open locks would just take rogue as the second class. Perhaps they might have a spell to improve chances, but a charcter with no rogue class shouldn't be able to do it completely on their own via the standard lockpicking mechanics. I have a hunch the system will be fairly simple and adding too much versatility across the classes would increase the chance of rogues losing out on their uniqueness with relation to this skill.

 

[gorkon]

In GS there were spells for unlocking and disarming as well as bashing. The big difference with GS and most graphical games I have played is the sense of community. People had Rogues open their boxes to help the rogues earn experience. I am sure that there were some people who had those skills/spells who used them exclusively for themselves and their friends; however, the vast majority of people still waited in line for a rogue.

I hope that with HJ the people will be less self centered than what I have found in the majority of graphical mmo's.