Do you think Irina would be a good role model?

[K. Ackles]

Nope, you aren't. But back to wh@ smeghead and VH were saying, I think that Irina has her own motives, which we simply don't know of. She has been double-crossed in her lifetime, and I think that she is just as reluctant to reveal them. She has also been a spy for Irina-knows how long, and that "when in doubt rub'm out'" (and that made me laugh to smeg!) theory is her way of coping with ppl and their reactions. When did she kill in coldblood, without a good enough reason that I know of??? (haven't seen finalé)???

 

[Manu]

You mean I'm not the only one who feels this way?  :blink:

It would appear

When did she kill in coldblood, without a good enough reason that I know of?

I'm not sure. Maybe that guy at the end of Second Double. Come to think of it, it was for a "good" reason. Whatever. I don't care.

 

[K. Ackles]

It was Irina...when she's involved, there is always a good reason. Even if we don't know it.

 

[verdantheart]

That's is the one thing that has completely and utter baffled me     :blink: .  I've been watching the Season 2 episodes again and I'm trying to fit in why she did verything she did, and it just doesn't play out, so yet again I'm like  :blink: !

Exactly. The whole show seems to be like that now. And people wonder why I plan not to continue watching next season if it continues. I really do feel that too many things seem to have not been well thought out, and that annoys me. It makes me feel like I'm being jerked around, and I have little patience for that. I hope JJ tightens things up next season. I don't think it will take more than a few episodes to tell if that has happened. We'll see.

Well, her actions are baffling if you insist on her motives being honorable. If not, there are all sorts of "reasonable" explanations for her behavior. For example, she could be simply on a mission to grab power, hoping that she can somehow manage to repair her relationship with her family later on. So what if I've betrayed them, she rationalizes, when I have what I want, they'll see that it's all worthwhile. She might even talk herself into the notion that if she doesn't get a hold of the power, Sloane definitely will--so she ends up taking a risk and helping Sloane get it. But--the problem with a lot of this is that half the story is concealed from the viewer. And while that makes for a lot of entertaining surprises, it also potentially makes for a lot of confusing musing as well.

Basically the apparent conflict is she loves her family yet she betrays them. The solution: She has a goal that is so important that she believes that it is worth that sacrifice--a higher priority. She loves her family, but she wants something else more.

What's suggested by the text is that she is seeking the knowledge of Rambaldi. If there is a deeper purpose to this quest for her, we are not privy to it.

The conclusion that I draw from her behavior--in light of the limited information available--is that she probably does love Sydney and Jack, too--but that she has her priorities, and Jack and Sydney aren't at the top of her list. Jack realizes this, which is why she causes him so much pain--there is no higher priority than family for him.

 

[smegheadalways]

The conclusion that I draw from her behavior--in light of the limited information available--is that she probably does love Sydney and Jack, too--but that she has her priorities, and Jack and Sydney aren't at the top of her list. Jack realizes this, which is why she causes him so much pain--there is no higher priority than family for him.

I'm nodding me head along with a lot of what you say but the above. I believe she loves Syd/Jack more than her quest for Rambaldi, however there's much much more than meets the eye!

 

[verdantheart]

The conclusion that I draw from her behavior--in light of the limited information available--is that she probably does love Sydney and Jack, too--but that she has her priorities, and Jack and Sydney aren't at the top of her list. Jack realizes this, which is why she causes him so much pain--there is no higher priority than family for him.

I'm nodding me head along with a lot of what you say but the above. I believe she loves Syd/Jack more than her quest for Rambaldi, however there's much much more than meets the eye!

As I said,

If there is a deeper purpose to this quest for her, we are not privy to it.

However, I do not exclude that possibility and I have a couple of scenarios in mind that could explain it. But! The jury is out!

 

[Ophelia]

I just don't trust Irina. And if I were behaving as she has done, I wouldn't expect anyone to trust me either -- not unless I explained myself. I don't think she has even really begun to do that.

 

[Manu]

The conclusion that I draw from her behavior--in light of the limited information available--is that she probably does love Sydney and Jack, too--but that she has her priorities, and Jack and Sydney aren't at the top of her list

I'm nodding me head along with a lot of what you say but the above. I believe she loves Syd/Jack more than her quest for Rambaldi, however there's much much more than meets the eye!

WORD. I can't believe this is still an issue to some people.

I wouldn't expect anyone to trust me either -- not unless I explained myself. I don't think she has even really begun to do that

It's not like she never tried. That sure is the writers fault, not hers. They waste too much time on Sydney giving Vaughn a new drawer at her apartment instead of developing the real important and interesting storylines.

 

[verdantheart]

I wouldn't expect anyone to trust me either -- not unless I explained myself. I don't think she has even really begun to do that

It's not like she never tried. That sure is the writers fault, not hers. They waste too much time on Sydney giving Vaughn a new drawer at her apartment instead of developing the real important and interesting storylines.

Irina doesn't explain herself, and that is not the fault of the writers. That is Irina's character--consistently. She is not a plain speaker, she weaves lies and truth together constantly. She is never straight, exept, perhaps, when she simply told Sydney that she loved her. When she told her the tale of her plotting, it was clear that it wasn't straight because the facts were verifiably off. Was that a "mistake" by the writers? Heck, no! Irina knew what she was doing.

There seem to be a few people who love Irina so much and so want her to "be good" that they are angry with the writers even though they have written Irina consistently as charming, deceptive, and willing to sacrifice those she loves to a greater aim (at least put their lives at risk, even though she won't let them die needlessly; and more than willing to hurt them emotionally). In fact, it's a tribute to the writers and Ms Olin's performance that Irina has so completely charmed so many of the viewers that she seems to be much more widely beloved than Jack, who clearly puts Sydney first, when Irina does not (certainly not clearly).

 

[Manu]

Um.. and the fact that Sydney and Jack don't ask any questions is realistic how? Everytime she tries to talk to them they cut her off. They don't want to hear the truth because they're afraid of the truth.

There seem to be a few people who love Irina so much and so want her to "be good" that they are angry with the writers even though they have written Irina consistently as charming, deceptive, and willing to sacrifice those she loves to a greater aim

I've never met one of those people, really. In fact, if you go to the sd-1 boards (where most of her fanbase is) you'll see that no one feels that way. I'm one of the few people who are "happy" with the way JJ and co are developing the character of Irina. What's the point of finding out the truth about her in one season? All the mystery of her character would be gone and that mystery is one of the things that makes her so appealing imo.

 

[Ophelia]

Word, VH! Let's hear some plain talk from Irina, with no tasers and no hockey sticks -- just the plain, unvarnished truth and no supposedly profound catchphrases like "truth takes time." I guess I feel like Jack -- when she escaped in Panama, I felt betrayed too. Now I won't trust her again. Neither should Jack, and he probably won't. That's not to say he doesn't feel some compassion for Irina's situation -- he knows that her life was no bed of roses after she left 20-odd years ago -- but I couldn't imagine Jack ever allowing her to be in a position to hurt him again. I wonder if Irina is afraid of Jack now -- she has made no effort whatsoever to communicate with him since her escape in Panama.

Sydney and Jack don't want to hear the truth because they're afraid? I don't think so. Afraid of what, exactly? Irina has placed herself in a position where they dare not trust her. She has lied and manipulated her way through the second season, and that was fun up to a point, but I don't see how anyone could expect Jack and Sydney to ever place any trust in her again.

 

[Manu]

And with all of the new characters coming up I highly doubt we'll get any Irina backstory next season [shakes head]

 

[Ophelia]

All we can go on is what the writers give us -- it's too bad they decided to waste a perfectly good character like Irina by having her go off the deep end. I had been hoping that in time, she would reconcile with her family. That doesn't seem to be the direction we're headed, more's the pity.

 

[K. Ackles]

You guys write some wicked essays!!! ANd I agree and disagree with you...I still think that Irina is an awesome character, but you could be right, I'll have to wait and see.

VH...add all that to your book on Alias

 

[smegheadalways]

And with all of the new characters coming up I highly doubt we'll get any Irina backstory next season [shakes head]

That will so piss me off! :angry: Bring back Irina!!!!!!!!!

 

[K. Ackles]

Well...they have said they are keeping Irina in season 3, but I don't know how long that will be for...

 

[verdantheart]

Um.. and the fact that Sydney and Jack don't ask any questions is realistic how? Everytime she tries to talk to them they cut her off. They don't want to hear the truth because they're afraid of the truth.

Well, you said it for Sydney. And, except for the part about shooting her (pre-betrayal, once Sydney started talking to her mother), she never really "cut her off." The fact is, Irina doesn't offer much. She offers what she wants to, what suits her interests.

Jack is hardly afraid of what she has to say. Their lack of communication is based on something else entirely, as I suggest in my season summary:

A great deal of what we see between Jack and Irina, sadly, is a game--the game that Irina plays to achieve her goals. Jack is an unwilling challenger, but he plays. He loses, and wins. Irina gets what she wants, but Jack gets what he wants most, Sydney's freedom and relative emotional health. So she's disappointed in her mother. At least her mother didn't leave her standing on the dock with her guts hanging out. Jack took that bullet for her.

But the game requires that much remain unsaid between them. Jack's response to Elsa Caplan indicates his need to express some of his own enormous and pent-up pain and grief. These wounds have never healed and were only reopened and deepened by Irina's return. Yet he could not discuss any of his issues with her because he had to slip into his old role of trusting her as though it were a comfortable old shoe. Is Irina testing him when she brings up her meetings with her case officer at his hotel--is she probing to see if he'd bite back in resentment and pain, instead of the simple sadness she read in his eyes? Yet he needed to test Caplan for Sydney's sake, and it gave him the opportunity to spit out some of the bile that he'd held back so long. No wonder he went farther than necessary.

But not only did he need to hold back for his game; there was also the little matter of the fishbowl that Irina was living in. Jack can have no idea who is watching at any given time, and he is a private man. He certainly doesn't want to air his most private grief and continuing feelings in front of his colleagues, perhaps even his daughter. And he certainly couldn't bring it up during their short time in Panama. It could have ruined everything--and there was hardly time. There is too much anguish, betrayal, and pain between them to be run through in moments, even hours--years would hardly seem to be enough. So when they had the time, he hadn't the opportunity; and when they had the opportunity, they had no time--and there was always the game holding their tongues. So everything remained unspoken.

(Sorry that was so long) This, of course speaks to Jack's role in their game. Yet, obviously, if Irina spoke up about anything between them--their relationship, her real purpose--her mission would fail. So what was there to talk about? Sydney and CIA business.

There seem to be a few people who love Irina so much and so want her to "be good" that they are angry with the writers even though they have written Irina consistently as charming, deceptive, and willing to sacrifice those she loves to a greater aim 

I've never met one of those people, really. In fact, if you go to the sd-1 boards (where most of her fanbase is) you'll see that no one feels that way. I'm one of the few people who are "happy" with the way JJ and co are developing the character of Irina. What's the point of finding out the truth about her in one season? All the mystery of her character would be gone and that mystery is one of the things that makes her so appealing imo.

"I've never met one of those people, really." The she's-good/they're-writing-her-wrong camp? I seem to see comments like that around here. If the sd-1 folks aren't in that camp, what's their complaint? She's-bad/they're-writing-her-wrong? Or all-must-be-revealed? If it's the latter, sorry, she just isn't the self-revelatory kind--again with the why she won't explain herself to Sydney or Jack--it would kinda get in the way of successful missions if people could read her motives. (Sorry, I only have time for allalias . . .)

And with all of the new characters coming up I highly doubt we'll get any Irina backstory next season [shakes head]

I wouldn't count it out if I were you. It depends on whether they need to use what time they have with her to fill in backstory or move ahead. But I rather expect that if Lena Olin is to be a guest star, she will be featured.

 

[verdantheart]

Oops, I meant to say that after the betrayal, Sydney cuts off Irina because she's angry--but for some reason I can't edit that post (too darn long, maybe).

 

[smegheadalways]

By good you wrote a lot! I'm tired (long day) so a lot of it went right over my head, but picked up a few bits

This, of course speaks to Jack's role in their game. Yet, obviously, if Irina spoke up about anything between them--their relationship, her real purpose--her mission would fail. So what was there to talk about? Sydney and CIA business.

I agree

Well, you said it for Sydney. And, except for the part about shooting her (pre-betrayal, once Sydney started talking to her mother), she never really "cut her off." The fact is, Irina doesn't offer much. She offers what she wants to, what suits her interests.

and with this,

Look at that so much in only a few words, aren't I lazy!

 

[Manu]

I kind of agree with what you said but I just woke up so forgive me if I'm not making any sense

If the sd-1 folks aren't in that camp, what's their complaint?

Maybe I wasn't clear enough. They have no complaints (just like I don't) They just want some answers, like everyone else. But given the context of the show we all know that answers aren't something easy to get. Doesn't mean they don't agree with the way her character is written though.

But I rather expect that if Lena Olin is to be a guest star, she will be featured

Hopefully it won't come to this.