Does Jack trust Irina?

[BristowDefender]

In Irina we continue to see a woman who demands everything and gives nothing in terms of trust. A woman who eagerly used Jack to further her professional goals last season with total disregard for his feelings or well-being. Why would I want to see them together? Because I enjoy seeing Jack tortured? (Well, the more angst Jack goes through, the more I see of him, so I guess there is some truth to that!

verdantheart, bravo to you and to Ophelia.

Although I would consider myself a J/I RELATIONshipper, I do not WHORship Irina, especially at Jack's expense.

I agree that she has not done anything to earn Jack's trust. However, that does not stop him from trusting her.

He trusted her enough to get her permission to use the CIA's computer. How did she replay that? She used the computer to communicate with Sloane or Sark, can't remember which one.

Then in Panama, who knows what really happened? Considering the actress chose only to fulfill her contact and nothing more, we don't know where that story would have gone, however, Jack did tell Syd that her mother betrayed them again.

However, even that didn't stop him from trusting her. After Syd's death, he turned to the only person he could trust, Irina.

That of course landed him back in jail.

How about the question on whether or not Irina was in contact with Syd? Remember the key she gave Sloane? It was in a code that Irina developed. That would imply that she was in contact with Syd. Why didn't she tell that to Jack?

Finally, when he needed her, when he asked for her help finding info on the Passenger. How does she show her trust for him? She cuts off communication.

No, she has not done anything to earn Jack's trust, but his love for her keeps getting in way of his better judgement.

I am, BTW, a J/I shipper. I just see Irina's flaws.

 

[Irina's Ho]

Although I would consider myself a J/I RELATIONshipper, I do not WHORship Irina, especially at Jack's expense.

*raises hand* Irina Whorshippper.... guess that would be me! Of course I see both J/I as badass Hos so I suppose it applies all the way around.


I adore Jack,though I tend to forego the dickvotion and have no need to blame all his flaws/errors on Irina. Jack's a brilliant complicated man. Irina is his equal. Umm.

No, she has not done anything to earn Jack's trust, but his love for her keeps getting in way of his better judgement.

:lol:

Me thinks we see a very different Jack freakin Bristow. No doubt that Irina is his achilles, but Jack has his own agenda.

 

[*IriS*]

He trusted her enough to get her permission to use the CIA's computer. How did she replay that? She used the computer to communicate with Sloane or Sark, can't remember which one.

Then in Panama, who knows what really happened? Considering the actress chose only to fulfill her contact and nothing more, we don't know where that story would have gone, however, Jack did tell Syd that her mother betrayed them again.

However, even that didn't stop him from trusting her. After Syd's death, he turned to the only person he could trust, Irina.

That of course landed him back in jail.

Well gee, either Jack is a very dumb person for trusting her again and again and again.. Or he knows exactly what he's doing.

Irina has her own share of flaws, but so does Jack. And that's why they are a perfect match, if we could say so :lol:

 

[verdantheart]

Well gee, either Jack is a very dumb person for trusting her again and again and again.. Or he knows exactly what he's doing.

[post="1050461"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]​

At this point, he knows exactly what he's getting into. Therefore, the tragic expression when he watched Irina leave in Panama. But how else was he going to get Irina out of Sydney's life? That was his priority--not to further the CIA's goals. He had attempted to reason with the CIA, but they were perfectly happy to trust in Irina, so he decided to assist them and reset the clock (so to speak), bringing forward the moment of Irina's betrayal and departure--and minimizing her negative impact on Sydney's life. Jack's decision was to take the brunt of the impact on himself. After all, he knew that he could take it because of his own experience.

What Jack's arrangement with Irina after Sydney's "death" was is a good question. However, although he says "the only one I could trust," naturally that would be an exaggeration. I fully believe that Irina discovered (if she did not know all along) that Sydney was alive and neglected to inform Jack of that fact (I suspect that the handwriting of the encoded message was, in fact, Sydney's and not a forgery). Certainly Jack, discovering that Sydney had survived, would realize that the ground rules had changed and Irina's interests would not necessarily be served by her informing Jack of Sydney's survival. After Sydney resurfaced at the CIA, however, we have reason to doubt that it was, in fact, Irina that Jack was communicating with. It could well have been Katya, who had every reason to use Irina's credentials in doing business. There is no reason for us to believe that Irina had a direct hand in anything that happened last season (unless you count giving birth to Nadia and the effects of those events that occurred many years ago).

Getting off topic here, but anyway . . . When you want to obtain the facts, but have nothing but untrustworthy sources (such as Irina) to get information from, you don't close off your untrustworthy sources--on the contrary! You find as many as possible! The more untrustworthy your sources, the more of them you need to compare to tease out the facts and start eliminating the false leads from the genuine ones. No matter how much falsehood there is, there are always genuine facts that can't be disguised (hard evidence). And within the flood of falsehoods, there are ways of weeding out the inconsistencies--and the greater the volume of falsehoods, the volume of inconsistency grows exponentially.

 

[Irina's Ho]

Hey VH...I'm A...now on with the show. :lol:

Therefore, the tragic expression when he watched Irina leave in Panama.

You know it is also possible that tragic expression was due to the fact that they had come to some sort of agreement and he's worried that A) He can't trust her or B) After re-connecting they are parting so quickly. It's hard to make up for 20+ lost years in one night. Though I bet they tried. :lol:

Jack's decision was to take the brunt of the impact on himself. After all, he knew that he could take it because of his own experience.

Or not. I'm not following the logic of how he diverted the impact. I don't think Jack can stay away from Irina. Forces of nature...dark forces drawn to each other.

However, although he says "the only one I could trust," naturally that would be an exaggeration.

Why?

Jack Bristow is AR. A genius. A precise genius. If anything Jack Bristow is given to understating things as opposed to exaggerating. Also, why does Jack not seem overly hostile towards Irina in Season III even after solitary?? They were helping each other other and bopping each other blind. :lol:

Now...tis quite possible that both Mama & Papa Bristow ended up knowing where the Spybrat was. Or Irina could have contacted Sydney after Jack's incarceration.

I'm with you on the reason to doubt who it is Jack was communicating with via the computer.


Your final paragraph. Is that Jack's rational for not being able to stay away from Irina? *snicker*

Irina proved fairly trustworthy during Season II. She didn't set Jack up to fry for a crime he didn't commit. :lol: She helped both Jack & Sydney out. She just didn't have much use for the CIA. And really can we blame her? -_-

Both Jack & Irina are playing to their own endgame. Both committed to doing whatever it takes to get there. I'm not convinced that they don't have a mutual interest. And it wWouldn't surprise me to find out that they had at least a tenuous working relationship along the way.

 

[BristowDefender]

verdantheart, I love you. :blush2:

 

[filmlover]

I never believed they were working together during Panama. I think Irina did her own thing without telling Jack, hence the look on his face.

I think Jack was counting on Irina's motherly feelings to help him find Sydney. Since she is Syd's mother, he believed she would be the only one that could help him on his quest. He couldn't use the CIA's help.

I didn't trust Irina in S2, and I could understand Jack's feelings. I actually felt sorry for him during S2, when he tried to tell Sydney and everyone not to trust her, and they wouldn't listen to him. Then he had to watch his daughter forge a bond with this woman.

 

[*IriS*]

I actually felt sorry for him during S2, when he tried to tell Sydney and everyone not to trust her, and they wouldn't listen to him.  Then he had to watch his daughter forge a bond with this woman.

[post="1051349"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]​

This comes to mind:

JACK: We may never have a better chance to get Sloane. Remember, without Irina's help, the operation in Kashmir would have been an embarrassment.
KENDALL: Jack, when the hell did we switch places? Derevko could be using this operation just to convince us that she's trustworthy.

That is a very good question, Mr. Kendall.

Re: the trust issue, the man said he trusted Irina, that's enough for me. I believe they've reached some sort of agreement, possibly after Panama, more surely during the year they spent looking for Sydney together.

 

[verdantheart]

Or not. I'm not following the logic of how he diverted the impact. I don't think Jack can stay away from Irina. Forces of nature...dark forces drawn to each other.

He diverted the impact on Sydney by taking the emotional hit himself. As he spent more time with Irina, Sydney spent more time with Vaughn. Just before Irina's departure, Sydney apologizes to her for not spending enough time with her.

Jack Bristow is AR. A genius. A precise genius. If anything Jack Bristow is given to understating things as opposed to exaggerating. Also, why does Jack not seem overly hostile towards Irina in Season III even after solitary??

Just because they are in contact does not mean that the two trust each other implicitly after season two. I suggest that Jack could not blindly trust Irina ever again unless he was extremely stupid, and you say yourself that Jack is a "genius." Sure, he's willing to work with her--to a point--but never to trust her. Sure he loves her, but he knows he can't trust her. I'd suspect that there is not a soul that Jack completely trusts, with the possible exception of Sydney. Therefore "trust" would be something of an exaggeration, despite Jack's usual tendency to avoid that. Blame the writers for this gaffe, if you like. (Perhaps they wanted to use this as part of the "upside-down" world that Sydney finds herself in at the outset of season 3.)

Irina proved fairly trustworthy during Season II.

I disagree with that. She served her own agenda. If she did not, why then did she manipulate the CIA into exposing the Di Regno heart so that it was ripe for plucking? It was Sloane who switched the artifacts for junk--so she says. Many are willing to take her word on this, but I refuse to take what Irina Derevko says at face value and leave it at that. The fact is that the Di Regno heart was safe where it was and it was Irina who manipulated them into moving it. She knew what she was doing. The extortion was merely a feint.

She didn't set Jack up to fry for a crime he didn't commit.  :lol: She helped both Jack & Sydney out. She just didn't have much use for the CIA. And really can we blame her?  -_-

She helps Jack and Sydney when her own agenda aligns with that. If not, she's sorry (as in "Passage"). That's fine, and I admire her single-mindedness and determination (and the fact that she can still find room in her heart to love Sydney and Jack without losing sight of her primary objective). Jack set her up because he saw her as a clear and present danger to Sydney. But, obviously, you can't just get rid of your daughter's mother without a significant emotional impact on your daughter. Jack had to find another solution.

Both Jack & Irina are playing to their own endgame. Both committed to doing whatever it takes to get there. I'm not convinced that they don't have a mutual interest. And it wWouldn't surprise me to find out that they had at least a tenuous working relationship along the way.

[post="1051012"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]​

And "tenuous" would be the operative word. They do not have anything resembling mutual trust, despite what emotional ties they might have. I agree that they probably have their own endgames, but that wouldn't exclude them from having a few goals in common from time to time (for example, had Sydney really been killed, the goal of punishing the killers). However, I would submit that Jack frequently compromises progress towards his endgame for the sake of his daughter. For example, I believe that Jack's agenda was set back a great deal by allowing the "Irina box" to be exposed (at Sydney's request)--it probably led to his having to free Sloane and allow him to escape with Nadia (which obviously made him angry, an emotion he is usually able to disguise or suppress). On the other hand, the evidence (for example, the trail of dead bodies she leaves in her wake) points to Irina being much more ruthless in the pursuit of her agenda.

Re: the trust issue, the man said he trusted Irina, that's enough for me.

You're saying that Jack never bends the truth or lies? (Of course Santa Claus exists.) And as for the "When did we switch places?" quote, after Irina escapes, Kendall comes back to Jack having realized that he's been set up. It's Jack's documentation regarding his continuing doubts about Irina that save him and allow him to replace Kendall after the fiasco--Kendall's been hung up to dry for allowing Irina to run rampant over the department. In other words, Kendall realizes that the "switching places" bit was a total con on Jack's part (this is where he calls Jack an SOB).

OK, now we're really off-topic! I'm going to have to think of a topic to spin all of this off into . . . Jack vs Irina, maybe? :lol:

 

[verdantheart]

I'm creating this poll question from an off-topic discussion that took off in another topic. I'll move the posts here. (Of course, they'll show up before this post.)

Please continue with anything that you want to add to the trust discussion and vote in the poll.

 

[*IriS*]

cool! I voted "yes" but I would like to add "to a certain degree"

He diverted the impact on Sydney by taking the emotional hit himself.

You know what? it's impossible for me to believe that Jack is so selfless. You're saying he spent all that time with Irina to keep her from Sydney. Do you honestly believe that's all there is to it? The man loves Irina, I'm sure there's a part of him (how big it is relevant to the fact if you're a shipper or not :lol that wanted to be with her!

You're saying that Jack never bends the truth or lies?

Not at all, I was addressing this particular issue. Why would he lie to his daughter about that? You say the whole point was for him to widen the cap between Sydney and her mother (which is a whole other issue by itself) so why would he tell her he trusted her? I am curious to know your take on this

Kendall's been hung up to dry for allowing Irina to run rampant over the department.

I didn't quote Kendall to point out how good a director he is, I used that particular quote because it could be seen as an indicator of a turning point in Jack and Irina's relationship, a hint from the writers. You dont have to agree, but that's how I see it.

 

[Irina's Ho]

Just because they are in contact does not mean that the two trust each other implicitly after season two. I suggest that Jack could not blindly trust Irina ever again unless he was extremely stupid, and you say yourself that Jack is a "genius." Sure, he's willing to work with her--to a point--but never to trust her. Sure he loves her, but he knows he can't trust her. I'd suspect that there is not a soul that Jack completely trusts, with the possible exception of Sydney.

Good points.

Blind trust between Jack & Irina? My god...I hope you don't think that was what I was suggesting. Never in a million years. :lol:

But saying she's the only one he could trust. Could also just mean that given all his other choices she is the one he trusted the most during that timeframe. I was never suggesting he blindly trusts her, or even trusts her implicitly. I don't think Jack even trusts Sydney implicitly.

Further, can you identify any fruit so far from this agreement?

The passive tracking device. Jack inserted it between her breast without her knowing. Yeah right! :lol:

I also don't buy that Jack spent more time with Irina so that Sydney spent less. I don't see any evidence to support that whatsoever.

Is Irina more ruthless? Good question. Hell yes.

And if they really had any such agreement, why didn't Irina tell him that Sydney was alive? (She didn't know? What, is she losing her touch?)

Umm, Jack didn't know she was alive.(and yet his own people did) Did he lose his touch? Irina isn't all knowing and all powerful.(8gasp* I know...that hurts) Is it possible she knew Syd was alive? Certainly, the code has to give one pause.

BTW, VH, your discussions are most enjoyable.

Oh when I said Irina was fairly trustworthy during Season II, I just meant she didn't you know...gut Jack or Syd. She even protected them on occassion.

 

[Natalia]

Does Jack trust Irina?

No.

 

[verdantheart]

You know what? it's impossible for me to believe that Jack is so selfless. You're saying he spent all that time with Irina to keep her from Sydney. Do you honestly believe that's all there is to it? The man loves Irina, I'm sure there's a part of him (how big it is relevant to the fact if you're a shipper or not :lol that wanted to be with her!

Did I state that this was his only reason? However, up until this point, he had scrupulously avoided entangling himself with her. Why? He was attempting to save himself the pain of being burned once again by the experience of becoming involved with her once again only to face eventual betrayal. Does this mean he doesn't enjoy being with her--quite the contrary! That's the problem, in fact. He wants her too much--it makes the consequences that much worse. He knows the betrayal is coming and what it will be like--but that doesn't make it less painful. Why do you think he stayed away from her all that time? Because he likes to deny himself pleasure? Because he enjoys staying away from the people he loves? My firm belief is that he undertook this to save Sydney a very similar experience of being betrayed by a loved one.

Not at all, I was addressing this particular issue. Why would he lie to his daughter about that? You say the whole point was for him to widen the cap between Sydney and her mother (which is a whole other issue by itself) so why would he tell her he trusted her? I am curious to know your take on this

I don't see why the nuances are so very important here, but here goes. Under the circumstances of Sydney's death, Jack could certainly trust Irina (if Sydney were dead they would both have an interest in discovering the killer--unless it were Irina)--but I still don't believe that he could ever completely trust her even if she is, as he says, "the only one I could trust." Under the time constraints they were under, is he going to go into a lot of detail about not really trusting her completely and what percentage he trusts her and how far he trusts her--blah blah blah blah blah? I don't think so.

I didn't quote Kendall to point out how good a director he is, I used that particular quote because it could be seen as an indicator of a turning point in Jack and Irina's relationship, a hint from the writers. You dont have to agree, but that's how I see it.

[post="1052632"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]​

The reason I responded is to point out that it is part of a plot that illustrates evidence supporting the opposite to the point you are making. That is, Jack's "switching places" was pretense, as Kendall realizes in the very next episode--therefore the SOB accusations. Kendall is angry because Jack knew the op he recommended and Kendall OK'd would blow up in their faces.

[post="1053325"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post][/right]

I see. So Sloane was "fairly trustworthy" by this standard as well. ^_^

 

[BristowDefender]

From VH

My firm belief is that he undertook this to save Sydney a very similar experience of being betrayed by a loved one.

Proof of this is why he went to see her in Cipher. He did it because even though Syd said her relationship with Irina was strickly professional, Jack pointed out that it turned personnal the moment she told Irina she was a turkey in the school play.

QUOTE(Irina's Ho @ Nov 4 2004, 08:30 AM)
I also don't buy that Jack spent more time with Irina so that Sydney spent less. I don't see any evidence to support that whatsoever.

Sure turned out that way, though.

Affirmative.

 

[Irina's Ho]

Sure turned out that way, though.

Did it? Not seeing that at all. Sydney spent time with Irina. They made a connection of sorts. JAck in no way monopolized Irina's time.

see. So Sloane was "fairly trustworthy" by this standard as well.

That is, Jack's "switching places" was pretense, as Kendall realizes in the very next episode--therefore the SOB accusations. Kendall is angry because Jack knew the op he recommended and Kendall OK'd would blow up in their faces.

No doubt about Jack playing Kendall. I contend it went even deeper.

Jack didn't 'lose' Irina he let her go...why? Cause they were working together. -_- But he had to look contrite...and the 'OMG she duped me again' worked well for their cover. :lol: Rogue Jack...working with Irina. You know it. :blink:

 

[filmlover]

I don't buy that Jack and Irina were working together in the Panama situation. He placed the tracker on her, because he wasn't stupid. SInce he took out the other tracker, he put a passive transmitter on her. I don't think he let her go, she betrayed him again and went and did her own thing. Until they tell us otherwise, I will continue to believe she betrayed him in Panama.

 

[verdantheart]

Sure, they made a connection--that's why Jack couldn't have Irina killed. But if Sydney was spending a lot of time with Irina after Jack started spending time with her, why then does Sydney apologize for spending so little time with Irina not long before she escaped? (sources for the citation are down right now . . .)

Rogue Jack...working with Irina. You know it.  :blink:

[post="1053506"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]​

Evidence? Or is it the "the only person I could trust" quote & the mere fact that he collaborated with her on Sydney's disappearance (a limited partnership which I will grant you)? He couldn't even be certain he was communicating with her last season . . . pretty tenuous partnership there, I'd say . . . :lol:

 

[ms.katejones]

OK, Irina has betrayed Jack on numerous occasions. She married him just to steal CIA secrets, faked her own death, had an affair with his best friend, stole the Rambaldi book from the CIA while under Jack's watch in S2, and then stopped talking to him in S3 once he asked questions about the Passenger.

After all this, Jack would have to be stupid to trust her implicitly and I think we can all agree that Jack is not stupid. He might love her (though whether you can love someone you can't trust is another topic) but I think he knows Irina cannot fully be trusted.

 

[*IriS*]

Sure, they made a connection--that's why Jack couldn't have Irina killed. But if Sydney was spending a lot of time with Irina after Jack started spending time with her, why then does Sydney apologize for spending so little time with Irina not long before she escaped? (sources for the citation are down right now . . .)

[post="1053549"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]​

I'm still not getting that. It's not like Jack camped out in front of Irina's cell. Yes he did spend time with her, but so did Sydney and I just can't see how his spending time with Irina is related to Sydney not spending time with her mother. That quote you're referring to came after a number episodes where Sydney was out of the country on a mission somewhere, including I think an episode or two where we didn't see Irina at all. I wish aliasinsider.com was up so I can properly back up my point. Anyway, I've always thought that the fact that Sydney was not visiting her mother was related to her not being available and not her father spending time with Irina.

He placed the tracker on her, because he wasn't stupid.

I'm sorry, but Irina is far from stupid as well. How can he put a passive transmitter on her without her knowledge?? Unless he knocked her out, which we know he didn't because he was still in one piece the next morning :lol: