Does Jack trust Irina?

[Irina's Ho]

Rands, WORD!

Further to the Sydney point. Sydney is the most self-centered spybrat going. The world revolves around her. So it is of no great surprise that she neglected her mother. :lol: :lol:

They still spent time together. I don't recall Sydney saying..."I would have visited more often but Dad was here with you."

No. I'm not awarding that particular point to Jack.

As far as evidence. That is one point on which we will go around a circle. I see evidence that they had a tenuous partnership and you see it as evidence that Jack was giving Irina her freedom to protect Sydney. So be it.

 

[ms.katejones]

I'm sorry, but Irina is far from stupid as well. How can he put a passive transmitter on her without her knowledge?? Unless he knocked her out, which we know he didn't because he was still in one piece the next morning  :lol:

[post="1054299"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]​

I think it was implied that he put the tracker on her while they were having sex. That's why she didn't notice. I guess spydaddy did a pretty good job of distracting Irina.

 

[*IriS*]

I think it was implied that he put the tracker on her while they were having sex. That's why she didn't notice. I guess spydaddy did a pretty good job of distracting Irina.

[post="1054992"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]​

I'm aware of that. Let me rephrase my question. The tracker he put on her is not external, otherwise Irina would have removed without getting the electric shot. So the tracker was injected into her. Are you saying that she didn't see him pull out the syringe or whatever he used and she didn't feel anything when he actually injected it between her breasts? I mean, it's not an area you can easily miss :lol:

But you know, maybe you're right. It's not like I'm an expert on trackers.

As far as his bedding skills go, don't even get me started there (<--- that's meant as a positive comment)

 

[Irina's Ho]

I think it was implied that he put the tracker on her while they were having sex. That's why she didn't notice. I guess spydaddy did a pretty good job of distracting Irina.

:lol: h34r: :lol:

Even if Jack makes the ground shake in bed. (which I've no doubt about :lol: ) Ummm...yeah. Me thinks our girl Irina wouldn't have missed the tracker. Might not have happen til the glow faded but still. -_-

And please take this in the spirirt it is intended (ie: fun) <span style='font-size:8pt;line-height:100%'>[possibly objectionable comment removed by mod]</span>

 

[verdantheart]

After all this, Jack would have to be stupid to trust her implicitly and I think we can all agree that Jack is not stupid. He might love her (though whether you can love someone you can't trust is another topic) but I think he knows Irina cannot fully be trusted.

[post="1053685"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]​

So you're saying that she agreed to have the passive tracker implanted after maneuvering Jack into removing the active tracker? I could get into a lengthy discussion of character and action here, but if you'ree convinced that it was all playacting, that's fine with me. --Especially since arguing the point would involve ruminating over some details I'd rather not imagine, thank you. :blink:

That quote you're referring to came after a number episodes where Sydney was out of the country on a mission somewhere, including I think an episode or two where we didn't see Irina at all. I wish aliasinsider.com was up so I can properly back up my point. Anyway, I've always thought that the fact that Sydney was not visiting her mother was related to her not being available and not her father spending time with Irina.

[post="1054299"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]​

Fine, but even if you don't grant that point, the fact remains that Jack offered himself as patsy in Sydney's place, so Irina had no need to insert herself into Sydney's missions as she previously did. But isn't it a coincidence that after Jack started communicating with her, Irina's pressure on Sydney abated--she stopped finding so many excuses to become the pretext for her missions or becoming the "solution" to the problems that Sydney encountered on her missions--she had someone with more influence to influence. In any case, I'm happy to disagree with you; we've beaten this poor dead horse far too long, so I'm done with it.

 

[Irina's Ho]

[possibly objectionable comment removed by mod]

Zuh??? :blink:

Don't mind me I am waiting for the punchline.

I'm oh so puzzled how insertion warrants a censor.

So you're saying that she agreed to have the passive tracker implanted after maneuvering Jack into removing the active tracker?

Jack had no choice on removing the first transmitter. The whole deal was cooked otherwiseand they both knew it. I don't believe Jack is that easily manipulated.

And I submit yeah...very very possible Irina knew full well about the passive transmitter. It certainly covered Jack's behind with the CIA. And hers with Sloane/Sark.


Why would that be necesaary? Cause they were working together :lol:

Yeah yeah I know agree to disagree...dead horse...what have you.

 

[ms.katejones]

[post="1058372"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post][/right]

That can't be proven though. All we know is that Jack planted the passive tracker and then when Sark says there's a tracker on Irina she says, "Jack" in this kind of "I should have known" tones of voice. If she had known, why wouldn't she have had Sark zap the tracker earlier to avoid the CIA interfering in her plans? If she had known, why would she allow the tracker to lead Syd into a dangerous situation with a building about to explode? If Irina hadn't spotted Syd, she would have died.

Basically what I'm saying is that the writers never indicated that she knew about the tracker and so saying she did is speculation.

 

[verdantheart]

[quote name='Irina's Ho' date='Nov 8 2004, 05:42 PM']Zuh???  :blink:

[post="1058372"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]​

[/quote]
Just heading off trouble.

And on the whole "Jack must be working with Irina" before Sydney's apparent death and he would go to her because she would have an interest in finding her "killers" . . . let's cut to the chase.

I'll entertain the possibility if you can explain this to me. Why didn't Jack let Sydney know that she could trust her mother? (Instead, they set it up so that she would not--the opposite of what Irina had previously been working toward.) Even if Jack could not let the CIA know that this is his plan, there are times when he and Sydney are out of CIA oversight--and he certainly has ways of getting out if/when he wants to. And Jack allowing his daughter to believe that she cannot trust her mother when she can constitutes a betrayal of the most basic kind after all they went through during the second season, so this would make Jack quite the monster, wouldn't it? Evil Jack! Tsk, tsk. Further, keeping Sydney in the dark would tend to endanger both Sydney and any plans that Jack and Irina have together because Sydney would tend to undermine Irina's part in any such plans . . . Even if there were some secret that they were trying to keep from Sydney, I find it difficult to believe that there is any reason so compelling that they could not trust Sydney with the fact of their partnership. Surely they could lie their way around any deep, dark SAB 47-type secrets they needed to conceal. In any case, if you can come up with some (even completely speculative) way around this, please let me know.

 

[Irina's Ho]

Just heading off trouble.

Perhaps you could elaborate in a PM. Don't mind me, I've never been censored before and if there was a rule I missed I guess I'd like to know about it.

I'll happily answer the rest a bit later.

Why didn't Jack let Sydney know that she could trust her mother?

There could be several reasons. While I firmly believe that Jack & Irina had some sort of working relationship after Panama in no way...I repeat in NO WAY do I think that Jack has lost his mind and is blindly trusting Irina. Tenuous relationship from Jack's POV there certainly would be merit in working with her)

For that very reason, why would Jack tell Sydney? Why would he set her up to crash again in case Irina didn't come through? Oh and the whole idea of covert is to you know...be covert and not spill the game plan to other people. The more people that know the more likely it will be exposed.


It isn't like Jack hasn't kept little Ms. Syd in the dark about things before that could be considered a betrayal on the most basic of levels. I think if he was working with Irina he took the prudent route of keeping it to himself. S'all.

<span style='font-size:8pt;line-height:100%'>[merged double post - v]</span>

 

[verdantheart]

Your comments contained a double entendre (therefore the potential offense), whether it was intentional or not. That's the last I'll say on the matter. (Arguing on this point is not going to go anywhere, so let's drop it. As an admin I have to be sensitive and head off potential problems, and sometimes that means being hypersensitive.)

It isn't like Jack hasn't kept little Ms. Syd in the dark about things before that could be considered a betrayal on the most basic of levels. I think if he was working with Irina he took the prudent route of keeping it to himself. S'all.
<span style='font-size:8pt;line-height:100%'>[merged double post - v]</span>

[post="1059253"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]​

Fine, but now you have Irina agreeing to it and undermining all she's worked for for months, and what she perhaps wants as a mother. If you want to read it this way, fine, but I don't see it as holding together. For me, there are far too many indicators that pull the other direction, from Jack's lies to Irina (the Sydney/CIA thing) to Irina's "smarter than Kendall" remark. "I'll make Sydney hate me for the rest of her life--just in case"? hm.

 

[Irina's Ho]

"I'll make Sydney hate me for the rest of her life--just in case"? hm.

Not at all. Who said anything about the rest of her life?

Irina already told Sydney she planned from the get go to betray the CIA. But she wasn't betraying Syd & Jack.

And let's just say that ACTIONS do speak louder than words. Perhaps it would have been of no use to waste words on Sydney, rather Irina continued on her own to neutralize Sloane. I know you suspect everything Irina does...but one can't help but think that 'The truth takes time' was some indication that at some point Sydney would see the big picture where her mom was concerned.

If Irina was successful in accomplishing whatever it was she was setting out to do than she wouldn't need words because Syd would see the proof.

But then it is possible that plan got derailed when Syd went missing.

Speculation? Sure. Possible? Yep.

 

[spymaster]

Interesting discussion- I guess how I would answer the question is coloured by what kind of people I believe Jack and Irina to be, what kind of relationship they had, have and could have and whether actions or motives matter more......

I think Jack trusts Irina to a certain degree- not blindly, not completely by any means, but fragile trust is there, even if given unwillingly and against his instincts (and vice-versa). Jack trusted Irina enough to work together with her to look for Sydney during her disappearance and to ask for her help for Sydney in N. Korea. Those instances of Jack reaching out to Irina to help with the most important thing in his life definitely count as some kind of trust to me, regardless of what happened before. Truth is, neither Jack or Irina are trusting people, and perhaps they shouldn't be if they want to stay alive in their line of work. They've both been burned before and trust and truth is going to take a lot of time and work.

Hello, A!!!!!! Should have guessed it was you from your name! :lol: And congrats on being censored. Gawd... I am suffering from severe fic withdrawal! Miss your fics and the double entendres at sd-1 so very much! BTW, could the J/I icon in your sig be any more sexy??

 

[*IriS*]

Heee, look who decided to join the party!

 

[Irina's Ho]

Hello, A!!!!!! Should have guessed it was you from your name!

subtle I'm not.
Woot!!! *snoochies* Another cool Sd-1 refugeee.

Spymaster, I have a much bigger version of that manip without the words. It is The hawt. If you'd like a link PM.

I miss my fic fixes too. *sob*

but fragile trust is there, even if given unwillingly and against his instincts (and vice-versa).

Exactly!

Wow, I go away for a couple days and the discussion grinds to a halt.

 

[jamis77731]

Interesting discussion- I guess how I would answer the question is coloured by what kind of people I believe Jack and Irina to be, what kind of relationship they had, have and could have and whether actions or motives matter more......

Perfectly stated.

S2 seemed to be about the heart, about motives. Late S3 was about actions. If their actions are who they are, then, after S3, I find little reason to care about either.

 

[NumberSix]

I didn't trust Irina in S2, and I could understand Jack's feelings.  I actually felt sorry for him during S2, when he tried to tell Sydney and everyone not to trust her, and they wouldn't listen to him.  Then he had to watch his daughter forge a bond with this woman.

Indeed. The tragic thing (for Jack) is that events proved his initial fears to be all too well justified.

I posted my feelings about Jack's fears on another thread, but I'll repost that same thing now since it sums up my views fairly well.

Remember, Irina is not just another enemy in CIA custody, she's Sydney's mother. Sydney is old enough to remember her from before, but not old enough to remember her with an adult (or even a teenager's) perspective. She was Mommy, the perfect woman who took care of her and walked on water. Remember from the first season, when Syd decided to become a teacher to follow in Laura's footsteps? For most of her life since 1981, she's revered Laura's memory.

The thing is, Jack knows he made a bad mistake, in retrospect, though an understandable one. He knew the truth, but he allowed Sydney the memory of her sainted mother, he didn't destroy it. After all, why should he? She was safely dead, as far as he knew. If Sydney retained the memories untainted and undamaged, what harm did it do? What good would come of shattering those wonderful memories?

But then she turns up alive, and Sydney desperately wants her mother back. If she'd been younger when Irina left, so she couldn't recall her at all, it would be much easier for her to see Irina objectively. If she'd been older, a teen or an adult at the time of the separation, she might be able to remember her as being just a human being, able to see her more clearly.

But as it is, Sydney is exquisitely vulnerable to Irina. Even at the start, when she tells Irina that "You are not my mother!" and insists that she's going to deal with her purely as a CIA asset, Jack Bristow wasn't fooled for an instant. He knows Sydney too well, he knows she leads with her heart, that she worshipped her mother, and he knows how badly she wants Irina to be Laura. Jack wasn't just angry in those early season 2 episodes, he was damned terrified of how helpless Sydney was against Irina and her own desires.

Sydney simply cannot be sharp and savvy with Irina. She wants to love her, and be loved by her, too badly. She wants her mother back. It didn't take long at all before her cold facade started dissolving, with the Thanksgiving story, and all the rest. Jack saw his fears coming true right before his eyes. When he told his daughter, "Sydney, you're smarter than this!", he knew she wasn't, not where Irina was concerned. Irina, meanwhile, whether or not she's sincere in her feelings, is known to be one of the slickest liars and manipulators who ever lived.

No wonder the poor bastard was scared for his daughter.

 

[NumberSix]

From VHProof of this is why he went to see her in Cipher.  He did it because even though Syd said her relationship with Irina was strickly professional, Jack pointed out that it turned personnal the moment she told Irina she was a turkey in the school play.

[post="1053380"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]​

That moment was a key turning point. It was watching Sydney answer the question about the play (via the monitors) that set in motion the whole Madagascar idiocy that nearly backfired and destroyed Jack. It's a testament to how afraid and desperate he was that he did something so poorly planned and poorly executed.

 

[NumberSix]

counts[/i] on a mother to side against her child, and he of all people knew that she was capable of treachery.)

A positive: she didn't betray them in Kashmir, as Jack noted. Again, though, as Jack noted, that could mean her game plan was just longer-term, or it could mean that she cares about J and S but is still playing her own agenda.

A positive: as noted above, she risked her life to save Sydney from her bombs.

A positive: she saved Sydney again in the final episode of S2.

A positive: while she used and abused Tippen extensively, she did issue orders that he wasn't to be killed. That might count for something, and she did save Caplan from being executed by Sloane (though the fact that she might have needed his genius as well puts her intentions in doubt there).

But still, the positives all seem uncertain (except maybe saving Syd from her own bombs), the negatives are really nasty, and if Jack turned her loose and doesn't mind the needless 'collateral damage' she's causing, we have to question Jack's own agenda.

 

[NumberSix]

OK, Irina has betrayed Jack on numerous occasions. She married him just to steal CIA secrets, faked her own death, had an affair with his best friend, stole the Rambaldi book from the CIA while under Jack's watch in S2, and then stopped talking to him in S3 once he asked questions about the Passenger.

After all this, Jack would have to be stupid to trust her implicitly and I think we can all agree that Jack is not stupid. He might love her (though whether you can love someone you can't trust is another topic)

[post="1053685"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]​

I suppose it depends on your definition of the word 'love'.

 

[NumberSix]

I'm sorry, but Irina is far from stupid as well. How can he put a passive transmitter on her without her knowledge?? Unless he knocked her out, which we know he didn't because he was still in one piece the next morning  :lol:

[post="1054299"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]​

That's probably the strongest (indeed, it's really the ONLY) piece of evidence that might actually support the 'they're working together after Panama) theory. We know Jack is supposed to have planted it on her during sex, but exactly how he placed something inside her breast without alerting her is not clear.

OTOH, her reaction to discovering the existence of the tracer later looks quite strongly as if she's angry and embarrassed. That scene at the German biotech company just doesn't make any sense, if she she knew about the tracer.