Harm minus justice = evil. A hero is someone who protects others from being unjustifiably harmed or avenges those who have been. That being established, a villain can perform heroic deeds and indeed be a hero to someone. Most people are neither purely good or purely evil, they are mixtures of both but will lean more towards one than the other. Oh yeah, I remember my point now. City of heroes was expanded by City of villains. Perhaps Heroes journey can be expanded by Villains journey. That would be cool.
End Game
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Ikiru
Cadet
:lol: well said :lol:Originally posted by dirtytofu@May 29 2006, 02:03 AM
wow this thread went off topic <_<
To sum up what Morneblade said.
God and Evil is based on point of view
Everyone has a different opinion on what a hero is. Some say athletes are heroes though I see them more as role models. With HJ though were in a fantasy world and most have an image of a fantasy hero. Characters such as Author, Merlin, The Fellowship from Lord of the Rings, Saint George, Luke Skywalker are most likely going to be images everyone will be modeling their characters after at least in some part. A good read on the subject is Joseph Campell's " A Hero with a Thousand Faces"
You just blew my mind :blink:
Morneblade
Cadet
Ok, back on topic.....
First, let's define the "endgame". To me, it's something that occours inevitably in games that use levels and classes. Basically you can't advance your character much beyond getting better gear. Most games put their most interesting content, best loot, and spend more time creating this part of the game. However I'd like to see Simu try something else.
Since the game is called Hero's Journy, lets make the entire game real interesting, not just after you have reached the level cap. My brother (who is a bigger powergamer than I am) tends to look at the endgame as "the game" and the actual levleing up process as merely a tutorial to learning how play "the game".
How screwed up is that?!
Or is it, when you see how devs create the games. With so much emphasis on creating something for you and 200 of you not so closest friends, the rest of the game can really pale in comparison. And I think this really needs to be re-though.
Some things I'd like to see:
Events that are for lower level players only. If you are out of the level range nothing you do will have any effect on the event, ever.
Give "Epic" feeling quests to players at all levels. I'd much rather have fewer quest, that really mean something and reward a large amount of exp and take some time to finish than 500 fed-ex quests.
Content for level capped players should not be drastically different from content made for uncapped players. In other words, if you don't make the "endgame" more fun, more interesting and "the real game", you eliminate any good reasons for people to push to get capped. Make it merely an extention.
Make PvP an afterthough. Yeah, I know I'm going to piss some people off with this. First, I'd like to say that I like PvP, but I really don't think it should be a emphasis in this game world. It doesnt really fit.
At least untill the "DarkHero's Journey" expansion, hehe.
But PvP in a class based system tends to do 2 things;
1. Suck
2. Screw up the PvE.
Now let me explain myself on these counts.
1. It sucks, because lets face it, most of what you do in PvP (in a level/class system) is based solely on your level/class build. It ain't about your skill so much, as what class and skills/powers/gear you picked up. Your "skill" doesn't mean much here. So you really are not testing yourself, just your class and skills/gear. Don't /flex your e-peen here.
2. I don't think I really need to explain this, but the mindboggling amount of "nerfs" that occur spesifically due to PvP ruin the PvE aspect of the game, which negatively affects many, many more players.
I say, but PvP on a server, let those guys fight it out and not worry about balancing that server for PvP in any asepect. Worry about the how classes work in PvE, only. PvP balanceing tends to max/min devs to death (maximum effort, minumum results) so I say don't waste you time trying to, it never works. It's not the focus of the game, so dont bother with balancing.
Remove as many 'greed factor" aspects from the game as you can. Player economies SUCK. Why, because they are run by exploiting, greedy power-hungery players. Don't make players "have" to grind to make cash, find money dupes, scam other players. Remove the need to farm gold, you get rid of the gold farmers. Add NPC merchants that sell almsot everything, no way players can over-charge players on rare Wyr. Or just make it all "no drop" or bind on pick-up. Don't have super great Wyr be a result of being high level and farming, make it quest-only. Give absolutely no "gear" insentive to Raid.
First, let's define the "endgame". To me, it's something that occours inevitably in games that use levels and classes. Basically you can't advance your character much beyond getting better gear. Most games put their most interesting content, best loot, and spend more time creating this part of the game. However I'd like to see Simu try something else.
Since the game is called Hero's Journy, lets make the entire game real interesting, not just after you have reached the level cap. My brother (who is a bigger powergamer than I am) tends to look at the endgame as "the game" and the actual levleing up process as merely a tutorial to learning how play "the game".
How screwed up is that?!
Or is it, when you see how devs create the games. With so much emphasis on creating something for you and 200 of you not so closest friends, the rest of the game can really pale in comparison. And I think this really needs to be re-though.
Some things I'd like to see:
Events that are for lower level players only. If you are out of the level range nothing you do will have any effect on the event, ever.
Give "Epic" feeling quests to players at all levels. I'd much rather have fewer quest, that really mean something and reward a large amount of exp and take some time to finish than 500 fed-ex quests.
Content for level capped players should not be drastically different from content made for uncapped players. In other words, if you don't make the "endgame" more fun, more interesting and "the real game", you eliminate any good reasons for people to push to get capped. Make it merely an extention.
Make PvP an afterthough. Yeah, I know I'm going to piss some people off with this. First, I'd like to say that I like PvP, but I really don't think it should be a emphasis in this game world. It doesnt really fit.
At least untill the "DarkHero's Journey" expansion, hehe.
But PvP in a class based system tends to do 2 things;
1. Suck
2. Screw up the PvE.
Now let me explain myself on these counts.
1. It sucks, because lets face it, most of what you do in PvP (in a level/class system) is based solely on your level/class build. It ain't about your skill so much, as what class and skills/powers/gear you picked up. Your "skill" doesn't mean much here. So you really are not testing yourself, just your class and skills/gear. Don't /flex your e-peen here.
2. I don't think I really need to explain this, but the mindboggling amount of "nerfs" that occur spesifically due to PvP ruin the PvE aspect of the game, which negatively affects many, many more players.
I say, but PvP on a server, let those guys fight it out and not worry about balancing that server for PvP in any asepect. Worry about the how classes work in PvE, only. PvP balanceing tends to max/min devs to death (maximum effort, minumum results) so I say don't waste you time trying to, it never works. It's not the focus of the game, so dont bother with balancing.
Remove as many 'greed factor" aspects from the game as you can. Player economies SUCK. Why, because they are run by exploiting, greedy power-hungery players. Don't make players "have" to grind to make cash, find money dupes, scam other players. Remove the need to farm gold, you get rid of the gold farmers. Add NPC merchants that sell almsot everything, no way players can over-charge players on rare Wyr. Or just make it all "no drop" or bind on pick-up. Don't have super great Wyr be a result of being high level and farming, make it quest-only. Give absolutely no "gear" insentive to Raid.
Morneblade
Cadet
What essential parts are you refering to? I ask becuase I didn't think I had done so in my post. Please, feel free to point this out to me.
What essential parts are you refering to? I ask becuase I didn't think I had done so in my post. Please, feel free to point this out to me. [/b][/quote]
I think Riceman and myself have a similar vision of games, so I am going to try answering this for him.
Your previous post suggested a major devaluation of the following activities:
I - Fighting other players
II - Trading with other players
Both go to reduce your options for interaction with other players, effectively making it less of a multiplayer game, and more of a potentially laggy (because of all those bastads running around killing *your* monsters :angry
singleplayer game with a built in chat room (since talking to other people seems to be the only type of player interaction you seem happy with).If they are serious about their dynamic faction status, they will have to put a fair bit of thought into PvP, so the Arcanum can have a good fight while they crush everyone under their cloven hoof.
I have concerns over some of your other suggestions as well.
Having lower-level only events effectively penalises people for levelling, and that's bad. I know you hate all those people who actually gain levels, but levelling is in many ways a measure of how much time a person stays with the game (I am well aware there are power gamers who fly up the levels in not much time, but they are not the majority by any means). The company wants to see people continue playing the game month after month (paying the associated bills
). To achieve this they make the higher-level game more enticing by giving people more options or other such rewards.I honestly fail to see the concern over higher level events in Hero's Journey anyway. Thus far *all* items we have seen are percentile-based rather than point-based. Combine that with a grouping system that pulls you up to the level of the highest character, and it's easy for everyone to take part in any event.
Karetyr
Cadet
Crisis, once again you've succinctly explained my point of view. I'm beginning to wonder if you aren't telepathic....
However, I don't think Morneblade was suggesting that events only be for lowbies. I think he meant that there should be level-restricted events for all level ranges, including lowbies. I fail to see how this is different from the low-level dungeons in World of Warcraft, though.
However, I don't think Morneblade was suggesting that events only be for lowbies. I think he meant that there should be level-restricted events for all level ranges, including lowbies. I fail to see how this is different from the low-level dungeons in World of Warcraft, though.
Well, I am working towards a career in public relations so it's natural for me to assume the role as spokesman for the Riceman administration
As far as my comments on events, I think we have slightly divergent concepts of "events". To you the word appears to be associated with special instances, whereas I got the Dragonrealms habit of thinking of events as GM-driven activities such as an invasion led by a GMNPC, a GM-supervised quest where he drops us clues and such, or any variation of what is in some ways an online version of a pen-and-paper game session.
Karetyr
Cadet
Well, I am working towards a career in public relations so it's natural for me to assume the role as spokesman for the Riceman administration
As far as my comments on events, I think we have slightly divergent concepts of "events". To you the word appears to be associated with special instances, whereas I got the Dragonrealms habit of thinking of events as GM-driven activities such as an invasion led by a GMNPC, a GM-supervised quest where he drops us clues and such, or any variation of what is in some ways an online version of a pen-and-paper game session. [/b][/quote]
Yeah....I'm trained by MMORPGs like WoW, CoH, SWG, etc. I'm so used to never having GM-run events that it's become habit to assume that "event" means "raid instance" or "dungeon." :lol:
PvE servers. You have described PvE servers as they currently exist in most major mmos and especially on WoW. As primarily a PvE player there is definitely value in not having your PvE character adjusted for PvP balancing reasons. Why should PvE players be screwed with for PvP balancing when they don't even PvP and are not even on a PvP server?Originally posted by crisisfox@May 31 2006, 11:23 AM
Both go to reduce your options for interaction with other players, effectively making it less of a multiplayer game, and more of a potentially laggy (because of all those bastads running around killing *your* monsters :angry
You made a valid point regarding events since levels scale so that all players can participate regardless of level there will be no need for low level only events. As for items and selling, somewhat moot since either way it goes because the effectiveness of even the suit you had after character creation can scale in effectiveness along with you. You really don't have to buy any new gear. It would be nice if some of the essential services could be bought from npcs to reduce the tedium of finding someone to buy the service from who won't price gouge you such as npc healers and npc repair shops.
Morneblade
Cadet
Ok, lets start with things that were completely misunderstood. When I was talking about lower level events, I was not stating that higher level and level capped players should not have events tailored to them. Generally speaking they get more of those kinds of events anyway, and some might argue that they should. I was not stating that they should not have events talored to them, but that they should not be allowed to ruin events for lower level players. Which if you have ever seen the few events for lower leverl players, that is usually what happens. So, my point was to keep a bored lvl 50 from ruining a event for lvl 5-10 players.
"Having lower-level only events effectively penalises people for levelling, and that's bad. I know you hate all those people who actually gain levels, but levelling is in many ways a measure of how much time a person stays with the game."
I'd like to know how it penalizes people for leveling? Get a alt on for it if you feel the need to paticipate. And how does having all the really "good" stuff for maxed out players treat people that dont powergame? Like 2nd class citizens?
My points on PvP are very valid. As I stated, I enjoy PvP. Even more so when it fits into the story of the game, and actually has a purpose. The problem is that in a class/level based system, it is impossible to remotely "balance" classes, and it ends up nerfing classes to the point where they are unplayable in PvE. Thing is, it's always going to be a big problem no matter how much thought Simu puts into the PvP balacne problem, and all that means is that is less content for everyon, because they are trying "balance". PvP works alot better in a skill based system and it is flawed in a lvl/class system. It will be flawed in HJ, there is no getting around it.
I'll give you the "trading with players" point. I hate crafting, I dont like crafters much (too many greedy ones) and hate the way player economies spiral out of control. I'd gladly get rid of that if it meant getting rid of gold farmers.
OK, I'm going to have to really get on a couple of points now. You mention that:
" I know you hate all those people who actually gain levels, but levelling is in many ways a measure of how much time a person stays with the game (I am well aware there are power gamers who fly up the levels in not much time, but they are not the majority by any means). "
:blink: :blink: :blink:
Man, you got off on the wrong stop.
I'm a powergamer
But I don't really want to be. I powergame because most content before you cap is trivial. And powergamers (the ones that tear through content) DO NOT STAY IN THE GAME. They bitch and moan about there being nothing to do, then leave. I've been accused of that in the past myself.
Oh, I might need to point out that I would rather not grind for 6 months like a madman to cap out, while it wasould take a normal person 18 months to do the same. it should move (the leveling process) at a nice pace, where you feel like you accomplishing something even if you tend to take your time and do other things.
Thing is I would just like to actually play the game the way it was meant to be played, and have fun doing it. Most games dont give you much fun till you get capped.
"Both go to reduce your options for interaction with other players, effectively making it less of a multiplayer game, and more of a potentially laggy (because of all those bastads running around killing *your* monsters :angry singleplayer game with a built in chat room (since talking to other people seems to be the only type of player interaction you seem happy with)."
Once again, well off the mark. I much prefer to group than solo (but I like to be able to solo as well). I like PvP (already mentioned). Ok, I don't like crafting, but I dont see how that is really much interaction, rather than "forced reliance". Now in Horizons (a game in which crafting was HUGE) I man times played bodyguard to our crafters that needed to gather materials in areas that would have been suicide for them. That part was fun actually.
"To achieve this they make the higher-level game more enticing by giving people more options or other such rewards."
All this does is make people want to get to the end, not enjoy the Journey.
"Having lower-level only events effectively penalises people for levelling, and that's bad. I know you hate all those people who actually gain levels, but levelling is in many ways a measure of how much time a person stays with the game."
I'd like to know how it penalizes people for leveling? Get a alt on for it if you feel the need to paticipate. And how does having all the really "good" stuff for maxed out players treat people that dont powergame? Like 2nd class citizens?
My points on PvP are very valid. As I stated, I enjoy PvP. Even more so when it fits into the story of the game, and actually has a purpose. The problem is that in a class/level based system, it is impossible to remotely "balance" classes, and it ends up nerfing classes to the point where they are unplayable in PvE. Thing is, it's always going to be a big problem no matter how much thought Simu puts into the PvP balacne problem, and all that means is that is less content for everyon, because they are trying "balance". PvP works alot better in a skill based system and it is flawed in a lvl/class system. It will be flawed in HJ, there is no getting around it.
I'll give you the "trading with players" point. I hate crafting, I dont like crafters much (too many greedy ones) and hate the way player economies spiral out of control. I'd gladly get rid of that if it meant getting rid of gold farmers.
OK, I'm going to have to really get on a couple of points now. You mention that:
" I know you hate all those people who actually gain levels, but levelling is in many ways a measure of how much time a person stays with the game (I am well aware there are power gamers who fly up the levels in not much time, but they are not the majority by any means). "
:blink: :blink: :blink:
Man, you got off on the wrong stop.
I'm a powergamer
But I don't really want to be. I powergame because most content before you cap is trivial. And powergamers (the ones that tear through content) DO NOT STAY IN THE GAME. They bitch and moan about there being nothing to do, then leave. I've been accused of that in the past myself.
Oh, I might need to point out that I would rather not grind for 6 months like a madman to cap out, while it wasould take a normal person 18 months to do the same. it should move (the leveling process) at a nice pace, where you feel like you accomplishing something even if you tend to take your time and do other things.
Thing is I would just like to actually play the game the way it was meant to be played, and have fun doing it. Most games dont give you much fun till you get capped.
"Both go to reduce your options for interaction with other players, effectively making it less of a multiplayer game, and more of a potentially laggy (because of all those bastads running around killing *your* monsters :angry
singleplayer game with a built in chat room (since talking to other people seems to be the only type of player interaction you seem happy with)."Once again, well off the mark. I much prefer to group than solo (but I like to be able to solo as well). I like PvP (already mentioned). Ok, I don't like crafting, but I dont see how that is really much interaction, rather than "forced reliance". Now in Horizons (a game in which crafting was HUGE) I man times played bodyguard to our crafters that needed to gather materials in areas that would have been suicide for them. That part was fun actually.
"To achieve this they make the higher-level game more enticing by giving people more options or other such rewards."
All this does is make people want to get to the end, not enjoy the Journey.
Exactly. I don't want to rush through the game because all the "BEST" content is at the end. I want to progess my character and think that maybe he/she has some affect on the community from beginning to end (when I hang up his/her sword and retire).
Raiding over and over and over with 200 of my closest "friends" does not really appeal to me. Nor do guilds (at least as I have seen in GW and WoW), though the small tidbits that have floated down the pike for this particular game are interesting. I enjoy PVP , but only PVP with a reason not just slaughtering other characters simply because they are there. (unless, as I have said before, I am actually playing a homocidal maniac)
I suppose I'm just echoing Mourneblade here, but I would really like the focus to shift from Huge Party/Guild Raiding of Endgame "bosses" to smaller party questing. I really prefer the smaller party dynamics to just faceless mobs beating on some fool dragon.
JonDDA
Cadet
Raiding should not be the only endgame option. Like in WoW, you would raid to get your gear, once you got it you would....PvP....and....uh....get your gear for PvP....than....wait for the next patch with new gear to raid for than wait, than raid and loot and wait and raid and loot and wait.....
Why not have multiple "end game" rolls. For example, you get your hero to the cap, and you HATE raiding, but you love PvP. They should have an arena type area with sort of a bracket system, so you fight your way to the top and than you are the champeen, until another hardy hero comes along and overthrows you.
Or, retire from adventuring and become a grand lorist, telling of all the adventures you had.
Or you can go the "raiding" way and make the Elanthia safer for all.
Join up with a small group of friends and go around keeping the peace, or disturbing it.
Become a renouned fisherman.
You should not be stuck to tedium.
A much overused but meaningful quote.
Less tedium, more fun.
Why not have multiple "end game" rolls. For example, you get your hero to the cap, and you HATE raiding, but you love PvP. They should have an arena type area with sort of a bracket system, so you fight your way to the top and than you are the champeen, until another hardy hero comes along and overthrows you.
Or, retire from adventuring and become a grand lorist, telling of all the adventures you had.
Or you can go the "raiding" way and make the Elanthia safer for all.
Join up with a small group of friends and go around keeping the peace, or disturbing it.
Become a renouned fisherman.
You should not be stuck to tedium.
A much overused but meaningful quote.
Less tedium, more fun.
Morneblade
Cadet
After having a chance to look at this again, I like you ideas there JonDDA. Mulitple endgames? What a concept. Now, I guess the hard part would be to "balance" them so that no matter which part (or parts) you wish to participate in, they are all worthwhile endevors. I think I have voiced my view on raiding in general, but say to defend Elanthia, where it's more of the whole community vs. some really not so nice person, and say 10,000 of his closest friends. Ok, I vote that is freakin' cool (lag permitting). Become a grand lorist, maybe you get to write some of the history in the game, veiwable by all. Wanna fish? How about fishing tournaments? Maybe even competative tournaments of "parlor games" of darts, cards, ect. A arena and bracket system for PvP, so we can find out just how is really the best. 1 on 1, team on team contests could be run, and people could watch from the stands, with the winners name or team broadcast thought the land.
Yeah, some very cool stuff to keep people occupied.
Yeah, some very cool stuff to keep people occupied.
