End Game
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Morneblade
Cadet
OMG Red, you have SO totally hit the nail on the head!!!!
*Raises hand*My name is Jon, and I'm a recovering powergamer....
Yep, I powergame, or at least in the past. I 2-boxed in DaoC (Shammy/Skald Combo) in RvR and you couldn't tell it was one guy. I grind hard and I min/max to the point of driving my guildmates nuts. I used to be able to play 10+ a day, everyday and playing 15+ hours wasn't a big deal 5-10 years ago.
Now, it's a different story.
I have alot on my plate. I have my day job, and am a professional musician as well. And every once in a while I actually go outside and do something with friends and family. I have 2 nieces that mean the world to me. So, if i get 3-4 hours in a day to game, I'm real lucky. Thing is, I still want to be able to see everything and do everything even though I only have about 25-30% of the time I used to have. That, and I REALLY don't think I can grind content again. The last couple games I really tired that got nasty at the end I just couldn't do it (CoH, lvl 41 only *cry*). I did maxed SWG in like 3 weeks, before the overhaul but that was cake. I'm burned out on mindless grinding and sitting in a raid while my butt goes numb hoping that this being the 35th time I've done this raid in the last 2 months:
1. Something will drop I can use
2. I'll actually win the roll this time.
:blink:
Raiding isn't bad (and actually can be fun) if it's not all about the loot. Dragon and TG raids were ok in DaoC, once I decided I didn't give a rat's arse about that freakin' spear dropping (for my gimp @$$ hunter, and then having some n00b win the roll. What ever happend to being the 2nd lvl 50 on teh server?!?!?). But they didn't take 10+ hours either. And I need to work, practice and sleep sometimes. I'm old, and Uncle Jon needs his nappy-time! Still the fact that the EQ clones dominate MMO's is getting really old, and it seems like I've been EQ for 10 years, even though I quit years ago.
I just think there is so much more that could be done in MMO's, but instead of getting more dynamic and deverse, it's gotten less and less deverse since UO, EQ and AC.
And you're right Red, I DON'T want to grind like a madman, never really did. But I felt like I HAD to to compete and have fun with the cool stuff in the game. I remember playing EQ. The first server I played on was Rallos Zek (open PvP). Gah, I had no clue, it was the default server and had a low pop, so why not, right? Man, I was ganked to hell, most by me DE breatheren. Kin-killer was the call of the day. I made up my mind then that I was not going to be such a easy target, by playing nice and taking my time. Went to a PvE server and ground my Necro to the ground and Planes Raids. Hated the politics
Went to DAoC and leveled my Hunter to 50 like a madman, only to see him get nerfed into nothing due to the fact that Scouts and Rangers (not hunters, our bows sucked) were murder in PvP. 2-boxed my skald and shammy to 50 and ran in one of the nastiets gank groups ever on Bedevere.
Ok, this is long enough!
Most fun I ever had though was playing with my guildmates and friends, moving at a slower pace, and not feel like I was "missing out" on something by doing that. I'd play that game for years and years if HJ can bring it to me.
Edit: I just HAD to post your at my guild's website Redfang. I'm still laughing about them because they are so on the mark. Nothing could be closer to the truth.
That and well, I figured I'll try and start the "Get Morneblade into the HJ beta and show that you dont really have to powergame and still do the cool stuff by proving it to a powergamer" petition.
*Raises hand*My name is Jon, and I'm a recovering powergamer....
Yep, I powergame, or at least in the past. I 2-boxed in DaoC (Shammy/Skald Combo) in RvR and you couldn't tell it was one guy. I grind hard and I min/max to the point of driving my guildmates nuts. I used to be able to play 10+ a day, everyday and playing 15+ hours wasn't a big deal 5-10 years ago.
Now, it's a different story.
I have alot on my plate. I have my day job, and am a professional musician as well. And every once in a while I actually go outside and do something with friends and family. I have 2 nieces that mean the world to me. So, if i get 3-4 hours in a day to game, I'm real lucky. Thing is, I still want to be able to see everything and do everything even though I only have about 25-30% of the time I used to have. That, and I REALLY don't think I can grind content again. The last couple games I really tired that got nasty at the end I just couldn't do it (CoH, lvl 41 only *cry*). I did maxed SWG in like 3 weeks, before the overhaul but that was cake. I'm burned out on mindless grinding and sitting in a raid while my butt goes numb hoping that this being the 35th time I've done this raid in the last 2 months:
1. Something will drop I can use
2. I'll actually win the roll this time.
:blink:
Raiding isn't bad (and actually can be fun) if it's not all about the loot. Dragon and TG raids were ok in DaoC, once I decided I didn't give a rat's arse about that freakin' spear dropping (for my gimp @$$ hunter, and then having some n00b win the roll. What ever happend to being the 2nd lvl 50 on teh server?!?!?). But they didn't take 10+ hours either. And I need to work, practice and sleep sometimes. I'm old, and Uncle Jon needs his nappy-time! Still the fact that the EQ clones dominate MMO's is getting really old, and it seems like I've been EQ for 10 years, even though I quit years ago.
I just think there is so much more that could be done in MMO's, but instead of getting more dynamic and deverse, it's gotten less and less deverse since UO, EQ and AC.
And you're right Red, I DON'T want to grind like a madman, never really did. But I felt like I HAD to to compete and have fun with the cool stuff in the game. I remember playing EQ. The first server I played on was Rallos Zek (open PvP). Gah, I had no clue, it was the default server and had a low pop, so why not, right? Man, I was ganked to hell, most by me DE breatheren. Kin-killer was the call of the day. I made up my mind then that I was not going to be such a easy target, by playing nice and taking my time. Went to a PvE server and ground my Necro to the ground and Planes Raids. Hated the politics
Went to DAoC and leveled my Hunter to 50 like a madman, only to see him get nerfed into nothing due to the fact that Scouts and Rangers (not hunters, our bows sucked) were murder in PvP. 2-boxed my skald and shammy to 50 and ran in one of the nastiets gank groups ever on Bedevere.
Ok, this is long enough!
Most fun I ever had though was playing with my guildmates and friends, moving at a slower pace, and not feel like I was "missing out" on something by doing that. I'd play that game for years and years if HJ can bring it to me.
Edit: I just HAD to post your at my guild's website Redfang. I'm still laughing about them because they are so on the mark. Nothing could be closer to the truth.
That and well, I figured I'll try and start the "Get Morneblade into the HJ beta and show that you dont really have to powergame and still do the cool stuff by proving it to a powergamer" petition.
Morneblade
Cadet
B)Originally posted by Ikiru@May 27 2006, 05:55 PM
Yeah thanks alot Redfang....now we have to duck to get past Morne's head when we go to our guild page
Another snippet that I felt needed emphasis. If Simutronics has an endgame that only allows raiders to have the best equipment and requires numerous repeats for everyone to gear up (or wyr up, in this case), then I'll be back to where I am now hoping for either a new game that doesn't (in effect) punish nonraiders or for the game to quickly raise the level cap and add new items (or wyr). We talk a lot about balance and many games nerf and buff classes for balance but they don't apply those same nerfs and buffs to grouping styles so in the end the game will still be imbalanced, especially when dueling and pvp gets involved because one groupstyle (the raider style) is the only style that offers optimum gear. That's the biggest imbalance ever. I think instead of having one style be the only means of optimum gear make it so all styles have optimum gear rewards but make them different for each playstyle, raide drops should offer group buffs, small group drops should offer buffs that are a balance of group and solo buffs, and solo drops should have buffs that help the solo player but neither should be outright better than the other...just a different flavor.
F
frostydf2
Guest
I'd have to agree with Riceman. However, in HJ I would expect the level cap to increase a lot more rapidly then you would see in other games. Just becuase of the way the game is designed and built. Insta-content, people being able to alwyas play with lower level friends, etc.
You don't have that in other games, therefore the level cap could be increased montly, if not even bi-weekly.
You don't have that in other games, therefore the level cap could be increased montly, if not even bi-weekly.
Morneblade
Cadet
I totally agree, and while they could pour alot more filler content more quickly, why not just put level caps on, and make ALL the content really interesting? If the "endgame" is not end all and be all of HJ why push to make it higher and higher in levels. So we can only people that play a ton can take part in it?
Um, I thought that was what Simu was trying to avoid.
Make all the content fun and interesting. Make getting maxed out not a finish line, but simply another turn in your roadmap. Give us something different and truely Heroic to do at all times. Not just when you powergamed to the top, tearing through content like it was a empediment. And make it fun. Make us laugh, make us sweat, and make us grin as we relive it in out minds.
With all the GMs Simu promises, I hope 'end-game' will be a continuation of the world's story. Though it might be a waste of talent, those story-events go on for a limited time.
I have no problem with raiding. But it's hard to balance in terms of gameplay. Say 30 to 40 people get out to kill something, there are usually only three phases.
1) Learning to play together. Find out what to do in teamplay, find someone who can lead the bunch and progress slowly.
2) The raidgroup knows each other and plays as a team. Routine kicks in but there are still enemies that have to be beaten. Usually the most fun phase where you get the most satisfaction when completing a 'stage' (boss, realm conquered, etc.).
3) The grind. For items, exp, honor, whatever. Encounters are routine and could be done with ease even if the whole party is drunk to the toes. Fun fades.
I'd like to see limited story-events.
For example: Despana, the Queen of the undead hordes returns (I lack imagination right now, I know). It starts off as a Realm vs. Realm combat, players vs. GMs. The players have to battle seemingly endless hordes of undead to stop their advancement. After one month (realtime) Despana is able to summon her lieutenants. Players have to defeat these or all is lost. If a raidgroup slays the boss, it is permanently saved for each player of the group. Other groups can still kill the boss while the event is active (1-2 months).
RvR is still going on and can be grinded for rewards, if anyone would want that. Meanwhile a bard pops up in a major town and sings songs about how Despana was defeated in the first place and tells about a great artifact that needs to be found or forged. Players have to find the dark elves, find this and that component/artifact, do this or that for the war effort. These can be soloable quests, puzzles, riddles, group quests, raid quests or simple crafting. If some players have finished the quest chain and all ressources are gathered, it's time to strike back.
Several raids have to be done and single heroic events are required. Finally, in a server-wide event ,that is announced a week before, players need to coordinate in the final battle. Depending on the server population this can also be done instanced. The event lasts 3 days in which players can defeat Despana. As it is instanced, she can be defeated more than on time to not leave the majority of players out.
After 6 months the event is over everything goes back to normal until a new menace threatens Elanthia...
Or something like that...
I hope you get the point of what I think end-game could be. Limited story events. It would add to the experience for long-term players and give new players chance to play their part in the world.
It sure is a lot of effort for the world building and questing GMs, but old instances can surely be reused for story-events without changing the original quest for the instance.
I have no problem with raiding. But it's hard to balance in terms of gameplay. Say 30 to 40 people get out to kill something, there are usually only three phases.
1) Learning to play together. Find out what to do in teamplay, find someone who can lead the bunch and progress slowly.
2) The raidgroup knows each other and plays as a team. Routine kicks in but there are still enemies that have to be beaten. Usually the most fun phase where you get the most satisfaction when completing a 'stage' (boss, realm conquered, etc.).
3) The grind. For items, exp, honor, whatever. Encounters are routine and could be done with ease even if the whole party is drunk to the toes. Fun fades.
I'd like to see limited story-events.
For example: Despana, the Queen of the undead hordes returns (I lack imagination right now, I know). It starts off as a Realm vs. Realm combat, players vs. GMs. The players have to battle seemingly endless hordes of undead to stop their advancement. After one month (realtime) Despana is able to summon her lieutenants. Players have to defeat these or all is lost. If a raidgroup slays the boss, it is permanently saved for each player of the group. Other groups can still kill the boss while the event is active (1-2 months).
RvR is still going on and can be grinded for rewards, if anyone would want that. Meanwhile a bard pops up in a major town and sings songs about how Despana was defeated in the first place and tells about a great artifact that needs to be found or forged. Players have to find the dark elves, find this and that component/artifact, do this or that for the war effort. These can be soloable quests, puzzles, riddles, group quests, raid quests or simple crafting. If some players have finished the quest chain and all ressources are gathered, it's time to strike back.
Several raids have to be done and single heroic events are required. Finally, in a server-wide event ,that is announced a week before, players need to coordinate in the final battle. Depending on the server population this can also be done instanced. The event lasts 3 days in which players can defeat Despana. As it is instanced, she can be defeated more than on time to not leave the majority of players out.
After 6 months the event is over everything goes back to normal until a new menace threatens Elanthia...
Or something like that...
I hope you get the point of what I think end-game could be. Limited story events. It would add to the experience for long-term players and give new players chance to play their part in the world.
It sure is a lot of effort for the world building and questing GMs, but old instances can surely be reused for story-events without changing the original quest for the instance.
I don't want to see the typical end-game that is in all other MMOs.
I believe that Simu will incorporate something unique for the higher level players.
I think having an area for PvP will be neccessary since sometimes people just wanna go out and fight other players.
I think it would be cool to have one huge bad-ass boss mob event where everyone on the server would be included to fight. "Kill the evil lord or your world will perish" sort of a deal. Aren't we heroes suppose to save the world after all?
I guess that idea won't fit if people want to be evil heroes....
Well anyway, my general idea is some kind of a quest or event that will involve everyone (or everyone in the higher levels) server-wide.
I believe that Simu will incorporate something unique for the higher level players.
I think having an area for PvP will be neccessary since sometimes people just wanna go out and fight other players.
I think it would be cool to have one huge bad-ass boss mob event where everyone on the server would be included to fight. "Kill the evil lord or your world will perish" sort of a deal. Aren't we heroes suppose to save the world after all?
I guess that idea won't fit if people want to be evil heroes....
Well anyway, my general idea is some kind of a quest or event that will involve everyone (or everyone in the higher levels) server-wide.
Morneblade
Cadet
Yeah, "Evil Hero" is kinda a oxymoron.
Events like that are going to be well, Lag-O-licious. One of the reasons I have never considered events as being important to me. Usually They are next to impossible to really do much, due to lag. I haven't seen a game really handle lag from such things very well. It's stuff I'd like to do, but generally it's more of a pain in the butt.
Events like that are going to be well, Lag-O-licious. One of the reasons I have never considered events as being important to me. Usually They are next to impossible to really do much, due to lag. I haven't seen a game really handle lag from such things very well. It's stuff I'd like to do, but generally it's more of a pain in the butt.
F
frostydf2
Guest
Is evil really evil when you think what your doing is right? Did Stalin really believe he was evil? Did Hitler believe with every passion that he was evil?
Ask yourself that, then determine what evil is.
Ask yourself that, then determine what evil is.
Morneblade
Cadet
You're right dirtytofu, although their actions might not be "heroic" by most people's defintion, but "bad" people would certainly look to that person as a "Hero", and want to immulate him. I stand corrected.
As to your question Frosty, that's a pretty complex one, and one that I don't think has any absolutes. I'm sure that anything could be considered "evil" or "good" depending on their viewpoint or the paticular circumstances. Hitler suffered from syphillis which in it's advanced stages does terrible things to the brain. So, while he didn't think he was evil, he was insane. More on that later..
Most people that do terrible things probably do not think they are evil. But then that might be the part of what makes them evil to begin with. Lets say that 2 individuals commit murder under similar circumstances. Let's say for argument's sake it was not premeditated, and was something that happend during a emotional outburst. 1 person feels absolutely terrible about it, wishes that never happend, has nightmares about it and ends up in therapy due to guilt, probably not a evil person. Feels guilt, remorse, ext.
The other guy doesn't even bat a eye about it, thinks he did nothing wrong, and in fact would do it again if another "mother XXXXer tries that **** again". No guilt, no remorse.
Actually, I think "evil" is not so much doing something that is "wrong", but how you feel about doing it. In that case, if you don't think that murdering 6 million people (Hitler) because they don't fit your idea of what a "perfect person is" is wrong, and that you are doing the right thing?
You're Evil.
In essence, it's not so much what you do, but how you feel about doing it that I think defines "Evil".
As to your question Frosty, that's a pretty complex one, and one that I don't think has any absolutes. I'm sure that anything could be considered "evil" or "good" depending on their viewpoint or the paticular circumstances. Hitler suffered from syphillis which in it's advanced stages does terrible things to the brain. So, while he didn't think he was evil, he was insane. More on that later..
Most people that do terrible things probably do not think they are evil. But then that might be the part of what makes them evil to begin with. Lets say that 2 individuals commit murder under similar circumstances. Let's say for argument's sake it was not premeditated, and was something that happend during a emotional outburst. 1 person feels absolutely terrible about it, wishes that never happend, has nightmares about it and ends up in therapy due to guilt, probably not a evil person. Feels guilt, remorse, ext.
The other guy doesn't even bat a eye about it, thinks he did nothing wrong, and in fact would do it again if another "mother XXXXer tries that **** again". No guilt, no remorse.
Actually, I think "evil" is not so much doing something that is "wrong", but how you feel about doing it. In that case, if you don't think that murdering 6 million people (Hitler) because they don't fit your idea of what a "perfect person is" is wrong, and that you are doing the right thing?
You're Evil.
In essence, it's not so much what you do, but how you feel about doing it that I think defines "Evil".
