Evolution of The Machine

A few questions:

What is the reason the industry allowed the games to come into the state they're in? Sort of a static grindfest thing (I hate to keep using that word but thats the best anology out there). Or whatever phrase you'd like to use to convey what seems to be an overall dissatisfaction with some form of ... monotony? Is that it?

Was it $$??

These games rocked initially and our love affair with them seems neverending. We've watched games grow from pong to the MMO level of involvement but I think I read somewhere that the level of creativity that lies in HJ's potential has always been there but it had been overlooked. Why?

I don't think it was intentional but moreso that we've been witnessing the evolution of the industry? Or has it also been learning curve for game manufacturers as well?
 
Simple reason. Money.

Grind fest is the only set up that allows prolonged play. The longer you have to invest in a game, the longer you will play it. A lot of people will maintain that subscription, mainly just to wait and see if something will be changed, even if they hate the current system.. while they arent enjoying the game, it is all the same to the companies that make money from them.

Look at warcraft, i monitored warcraft, and everquest 2 forums. And both games had thousands of posts detailing what they didnt want game to be. And both games started out with that "fun" experience in mind. But both ended up changing. Warcraft went from being a casual fun experience, to being a chore.

It kind of ties into that breaking the mold thread. Grinding works, thats why all games, western and asian use it. They know people will bitch and complain about not liking it, but still buy the game and take part in it.

Now, i see what they do in console, and single player games, and i ask myself all the time, why they do certain things on offline games that they dont do on MMO. There are so many console games that captivated us for weeks mainly because they were fun, but you get online and they just become a chore. Look at final fantasy, i am a big final fantasy fan, played and passed everyone of them.. working on dirge of cerberus as i pop back and forth online. Fun games, some of the most creative stories and battle system. But then you get to the online game and its dissapointing. A boring grind, with a boring story. Now i can deal with the grind, if i actually care about whats going on at point Z, for me to travel through point A, B, C bla bla bla all the way to point Z. I like the way they tried to get you to be apart of the story with the cutscenes.. i wish more games would do that, but the story was boring, and i just didnt care about being a part of it.

Now, i think the biggest problem with most games is, they are based more from the companies who fund the games input and not the players expected to play the game. Final fantasy had zero player input, while warcraft had very little but was advertised as if they had a lot more. Now while i think player input is a must, Doing it via the forums is not the way to get something productive. I really think surveys should be conducted ingame, or advertising to certain suggestions on forums that are being concidered asking for everyones opinions. Because we all know, when it comes to online games, the forum community is only patroled by the hardcore. Which means only a small portion community is being represented any time a so called "player made" suggestion has been implemented in game.

Now it seems companies are hoping to steal gamers from other games by taking one or two failed concepts and improving it. Then making promising they will be different from game A or game B. 2007 has a lot of games comming out, that promise new and changing features. So the industry may be changing for the better.. or worst.
 
Blizzard and SE are by far the worst. Money grubbing leeches that listen to absolutely NO feedback left by players. And they probably don't even have anyone working for them to actually play the game. They just assume things and make nerfs and changes based upon those assumptions.
 
In Game Surveys?

Great replies guys.

Summing that up we’re saying that its as if players were tranced out through repetitive task while being promised a new and better game experience via changes made from feedback gathered from the seriously skewed hardcore forum posters. That in turn resulted in changes which positively affected only a fraction of the player base and left the illusion for the remaining majority that things were changing while the money just kept rolling in - with no really good way to gather proper feedback from the majority of players. ummm...WOW! I agree.

Makes me realize that its a really good idea to periodically have some sort of in game survey/questionnaire to get a truer sense of where those playing the game actually stand as opposed to implementing changes via forums and/or power lunches alone. This would seem to more so represent those actually playing the game.
  • Players would have to log into the game to take the survey.
  • The survey would last up to a week or more in order to gleam as many players as possible over time.
  • A ‘Comments/Suggestions’ section would be added to allow for some free expression.
  • Results of reviewing said survey would be posted and pinned in the game's forum website.
  • Survey would beoptional of course
Any other ideas how we can help HJ get even further ahead of the competition?
 
Excellent post Deserttfox, and I understand exactly where your position is. Like yourself, even if I don't play the game, I still follow it, and it's success. Games such as WoW, and EQ2 however drive me insane when people call them 'revolutionary', 'one of a kind', etc. The thing is, they aren't. In fact all WoW did was re-define old systems as you stated, revamp them, and improve off of them. Nothing revolutionary, nothing spectacular.

You're 100% right when you say companies take one or two failed projects, and try to make it their gold. I notice game, after game of this. Games that promise no grind, or games that promise the biggest PvP experiance you could ever partake of. Look at WoW for instance, it's the biggest success on the market, for the sole reason of advertising, and re-inventing the wheel.

I truely beleive that Hero's Journey is the only game coming out in the near future with any revolutionary ideas. Look at Wyr, some may call it sockets in D2, and granted it is similar, but to the extent of editing stats, appearance, skills, etc It does so much more. Then you look at new ideas like the 'Nemesis'. This is one thing that I cannot wait to play with. Putting the RP back in MMORPG, and many more things. Being able to influence nobles, villians, etc to do your bidding is going to throw in a giant twist as well. Their is just so much going for Hero's Journey that isn't for other games.
 
deserttfoxx said:
Simple reason. Money.
[...]
Grinding works, thats why all games, western and asian use it.
[...]
Now it seems companies are hoping to steal gamers from other games by taking one or two failed concepts and improving it. Then making promising they will be different from game A or game B. 2007 has a lot of games comming out, that promise new and changing features. So the industry may be changing for the better.. or worst.

I agree completely.
I think it is the same way with Holywood or the music-industry. The entertainment industry tends to take tried and tested designs, change a few details (the story, mainly), launch a massive PR-campaign explaining why the new product is groundbraking and You-Must-Have/See-It and then tries to make as much money with it as possible.
With the huge market that is MMORPGs, companies don't try (and don't have to try) groundbreaking new concepts, which may or may not work. After all, there a throngs of players who pay for it.

A second development which could be observed over the last few years in the gaming industry is that the single factor which seemed to determine if a new game was going to be successfull or not were it's graphics (there are exceptions, of course). Make use of new hardware, make the graphics a bit more polished, a touch more lifelike and you were practically guaranteed huge profits. There are some FPS titles, which admittedly looked pretty, but which you could play through in 2 hours and they still charged you 45 Euros (should be roughly the same in dollars, I suppose). Otoh, I have to admit, that I, too, got used to the eye-candy. Some of greatest games I have ever played stem from a time when SVGA graphics were still unheard of, and I still enjoy them today whenever I fire them up in some simulator, but I still find myself wishing they had better graphics.

Two things give hope though:
Firstly, the graphics can't improve at the same rate forever, photorealistic representation being the limit, I guess. At that point, at the latest, the industry will probably have to look for another selling point for new products, i.e. a new area to improve. Gameplay would be an excellent choice...
Secondly, games like HJ (hopefully), raise the bar for following games, i.e. improvements introduced by one game will probably be incorporated into future games as well. So, there seems to be some progress, we can hope.
 
Hmm, I'll have to think about this one a bit.

First off, as for the lack of leaping strides of innovation, you havbe to remember, the game playing public is a fickle crowd, with many varied tastes.
While some things may appeal to you or this whole community, that can't be taken as "this is what every gamer wants." And being able to cater to those needs/wants is a difficult task in itself, the most any game can really hope for is to please the audience it's aiming for. With the MMO market that can be RPers, PowerGamers, Achievement Monkeys, PVP nuts, etc.
Some games try and incoporate as much as they can to cover all the bases, but when you look at each game you start to see it's largest selling point, something it does better than any other factor (within its own game that is). Also, taking bigger risks may yield bigger rewards (as the saying goes) it can also yield bigger downfalls. There's alot of money involved in the development of these games, so a company can stand to either make a lot of money for being daring or get a nice mention in an article somewhere with "at least they took a chance." which they can read as they're selling off all the server equipment and watching closed accounts whistle by as they have to shut-down the game.

Put yourself in their shoes, you'e the one responsible for the financial security of the company, so no only do their books, but your job, rests on the ability to make the correct decisions on green-lighting a project. You have two developers come up to you, both equal in skill, but with two wildly different ideas for MMO's. One is very, very innovative (Option A). Incorporating completley new ideas and game designs. The other is a more standard approach (Option B), maybe a fewminor innovations, but a lot of design that is already in use elsewhere, jsut with some minor tweaks so it's not an exact duplicate. Now you take both ideas, and do some market sampling. Option A has definately sparked some interest for all it's innovations, but the numbers show it to be more a more niche or cult hit than a mainstream hit. Option B, while hearing some grumblings of "Oh...more of THAT.." still pulls much higher numbers. Looking at strictly numbers (completley off the top of my head) Option A looks to have about a 43% of being a hit and financially successful, Option B has a slightly better 65% chance. Which do you choose?

I, for one, give kudos to comapnies that strive for different things in their games. It's the only way games advance, but it's also a huge risk, and alot of these companies have to look at the hear and now. For smaller comapnies with a "Nothing to lose and everything to gain", it may be a different story. For companies on the brink, it's much more pronounced. For larger mega-firms, it could be very well that they would take the felgercarb shoot and roll on the little innovative guy, as long as they feel they can afford and recoup the loss should it fail.

As for the "grindfests", well to me there are two resons for that. One, a lot of Asian developed games tend to play heavily into that role, it's just an aspect of their game design. Does it make a game inherently bad? To you maybe, but that's a matter of taste/prefference, not any indicationt hat the game is bad. A lot of western gamers like instant gratification, or at least much more rapid gratification, not all, but a majority, look at the numbers of western players on WoW vs. FFXI for example.

Now it also stands to reason that everygame is going to have some amount of "grind" in it. It's not exactly cheap for these companies to use, maintain and upgrade all those servers, plus the manpower involved with maintaining an MMO, so they need to do what they can to maintain player involvement, if that means installing some "grindfest" methodology, then that's what they have to do. Remember, one of the first goals of any company is to continue to make profit, whether that's good or bad is to be left to philosophers.
It's easy to call a company a "money grubbing -----", but that's the other side of the coin as to what they're there for. One side is to provide an enjoyable, quality product for their consumers, the other is to make a profit off of those same consumers.

As for the belief out there on so many of the gaming forums same companies never listening to their consumers? That's an ignorant and gross overstatement. For one, you have to consider the amount of input that they would have to deal with if they were to simply open the floodgates. But for the most part, you will find that there are ways in which the player-base does have input ont he games they play. Open or in-game surveys would be interesting, but not the only means. If a game has official forums, such as WoW, a lot of player input is taken into consideration. But they also have to be able to gauge how well it will be received by the entire population of their game, bot just by the 15 who posted about it. Outside of forums, there are almost always e-mails or even street addys that can be written to, get the support of the games community behind you. Discuss it on the most popular forums, where you're sure to get a lot of people's attention and therefore their voice and start a letter writing campaign.

The change of the Dragoon's two-hour ability had been something that had been on the mind of the FFXI dev's for a long time, but not until they began to hear more and more from the player community was it something that was implemented. And look at the upcoming Burning Crusade, ther was enough feedback from the player base that Blizzard is capping many of the instances at 25-man. This of course also works within their game design and doesn't destroy balance.

Probably one of the best phrases I can think of is: "Don't complain if you don't intend to do something about it." I see a lot of game forums with players complaining about this or that, but not doing anything outside of that to effect a change. THese companies want the player-bases business, they need it, and therefore strive to provide you with an enjoyable, quality experience. But that can't be expected to know what's on everyones mind.

As for the quality f the content, once again, that's personal prefference, not a definitive fact. I, for one amongst many others, find the plot-line of FFXI to be very enjoyable and the use of it fun. On the same token, using Fox's example, I could say that Dirge of Cerberus and every FF game after 9 are vapid wastes of time, but once again that would be my personal opinion, not making the games bad or junk, just not in my realm of tastes.
Which is one of the reasons I don't read game reviews unless they tap into specific technical issues (major bugs, glitches, etc.)

Anyways, just my .02¢
 
Ah! Snap out of it, man! *Slaps Anduril across the face.* Two cents?! More like $12.50!

Whoo... Deep breaths, man. Deep breaths...
 
QuantumWire said:
Firstly, the graphics can't improve at the same rate forever, photorealistic representation being the limit, I guess. At that point, at the latest, the industry will probably have to look for another selling point for new products, i.e. a new area to improve. Gameplay would be an excellent choice...

You bring up another great point here. The idea that as the limits of technology are reached, only then will the focus turn to quality of gameplay is a poignant additive to the mix. When in fact it should be the other way around.

Instead its almost as if the industry is watching after itself in an even broader spectrum because new advances in technology also fuel the purchase of new PC upgrades, soundcards, graphics card, hard drives, even to the point of getting rid of an older model PC in favor of a new one.

Nonetheless, in order to put a serious dent in the mechanism that directly contributes to this broad reaching general dissatisfaction with a lot of the MMO's out there do you guys think periodic in game surveys would help stem the tide of mindless changes brought on by hardcore forum posters and manufacturer board meetings who only represent a fraction of the gaming public?

Dez made an excellent idea IMHO with that suggestion:

I really think surveys should be conducted ingame...

I think we can safely assume that a large majority of players don't participate in forums. How else would or could we ensure that a greater voice is heard when it comes to player's points of views?

I'm asking because, like Daax, i'm really fighting to keep an MMO on my entertainment horizon. But if the trend keeps up I wouldn't be able to bring myself to do it any longer. So whatever can be done to help get this game off to a great start i'm up for. Ingame surveys sound like a solid idea in this regard.
 
I hate to sound like a swinger on a rope, but Andurial did make some excelent points. I still have to say that companies should always go for being innovative, and that's my right as a consumer to think that way. That's the glory of it, I can pick, and choose the best. I don't have to worry about being the best. I do understand that Hero's Journey is going out on a limb, but at the same time they are retaining enough of the 'old mmo aspects', that they shouldn't need to worry.

Have the old, and add the new.

Grindfests as Andurial pointed out is a matter of opinion. Although some companeis do better than others at hiding it. It shouldn't however be eliminated. I don't understand how the game would be much if if their wasn't an incentive to spend more time playing than others. I of course wouldn't enjoy that type of playing style. I want to be #1, and if little bobby can join up 2 years later, and be as fitted as I am. their is something terribly wrong.

Amazingly enough though, some people do enjoy the grind. I find the grind entertaining at times. In Lineage 2 hunting Cruma tower with a bunch of your friends for hours on end was a blast, repetative, yet fun still. It was almost mind-numbing, you wouldn't even think about it that's how repetative it was.

I don't think my post matches Andurial's at all, but thats my half a copper.
 
frostydf2 said:
Amazingly enough though, some people do enjoy the grind. I find the grind entertaining at times. In Lineage 2 hunting Cruma tower with a bunch of your friends for hours on end was a blast, repetative, yet fun still. It was almost mind-numbing, you wouldn't even think about it that's how repetative it was.

Frosty makes a great point here that slipped my mind (as many thngs do these days *cry*)
No matter how well, or how poorly a game designer attempts to hide the grind element. It can really come down to the players. You could spend, like Frosty said, hours doing repetitive stuff like that, but if you're with a good group of friends and havign a great time just hanging out together doing that, then you don't really notice the endlessness of it all.
One time in FFXI I was in a group of friends and some new peopel along with my ex-fiancee hunting for some coffer keys in Zvhal, which to those who've been there, know how absolutely wretched that drop rate is...anyways, we msut of spent a good 4 or 5 hours down there before sleep finally took over, but we never noticed it because we were jsut havig a blast hanging out together and such. :D
 
Kuzzle said:
Ah! Snap out of it, man! *Slaps Anduril across the face.* Two cents?! More like $12.50!

Whoo... Deep breaths, man. Deep breaths...

LOL... more like $49.99 Hardback Edition.

Now there is a way to satisfy every gamer out there. I know what it is and I think HJ knows what it is but, i'm not tellin' La.. La.. La...La.

Anduril pointed out several things in that magnificently voluminous rebutal, all of which; though seeming noble, also seem to be factors in the reasons why things are the way they are. Its mostly not working to satisfy a craving for more diversity from the player base. Not as in 'Give us a particular feature' but more so 'Let us unfold our own story'.

This is an area where HJ is going to tred new ground imho. Older familiar features will still be in the game but factors will be in place to make every player's experience a little different. That alone breaks the mold. No more "cookie cutter" characters in either appearance nor gameplay experience.
 
Thaos Nightwind said:
LOL... more like $49.99 Hardback Edition.

Now there is a way to satisfy every gamer out there. I know what it is and I think HJ knows what it is but, i'm not tellin' La.. La.. La...La.

Anduril pointed out several things in that magnificently voluminous rebutal, all of which; though seeming noble, also seem to be factors in the reasons why things are the way they are. Its mostly not working to satisfy a craving for more diversity from the player base. Not as in 'Give us a particular feature' but more so 'Let us unfold our own story'.

This is an area where HJ is going to tred new ground imho. Older familiar features will still be in the game but factors will be in place to make every player's experience a little different. That alone breaks the mold. No more "cookie cutter" characters in either appearnace nor gameplay experience.


Me typesum words gewd :D

lol, I get what you're trying to..uh..get at, I just hope it doesn't turn out to be another Molyneuxesque promise.
 
Heh, but Peter Molyneux doesn't have his fingers in this game, right? Lets hope not or we may get the curse ;)

As for the topic of this thread... Keep in mind that the industry didn't really let it become this way, it kind of started out that way. We just haven't evolved yet.
 
Peter Molyneux is the designer behind such games as Populous, Black&White and Fable. He always makes grand promises of groundbreaking gameplay, but doesn't always follow through to the level he claims. The above three games were his successes. There are several more that have ended back on the drawing room floor so to speak.
 
Fable wasnt that great either. And a lot of devs make huge promises that they break. And it works cause players arent willing to just say "NO". Not willing to just sit back and say, "This game didnt follow through, im not buying it." And that is more so true for MMOs then any other genre, because players have the hope that devs will add their promises later on, in some sort of update.

Ive stopped doing that. I will easily drop HJ if certain elements dont get implemented, I know whats being offered and i know what i am tired of experiencing. 2007 demands changes, nothingless will suffice.

Someone mentioned that there will be a point were pretty graphics wont mean anything, im pretty sure 2008 will be the highest point graphics will hit. Looking at games like project offset, theres no need to improve graphics anymore. Now its time to concentrate on AI, and gameplay features. Comps powerfull enough to do almost anything devs can think of, i think its time to truly break the mold, and step outside the box.

Stop with the medevil themes, and lets try modern, or futuristic. or even a mix of all.
 
I'm going to do something less than shocking, and disagree with the whole lot of you.
Blizzard and SoE enjoy making money and they've made tons. On what tho'? Us, the players.
The games turn into what they are, by how we as gamers like to play. If something innovative in game play comes along it's usually blasted as being too hard and what not. I think MMOs are grindfests because the majority of players are NOT good at any other type of game. I think they're boring because generally the exploration and the action elements are dumbed down into chores because if they were any more difficult some 35 year old house wife being forced to play a healer for her old school D&D playing husband wanting his dwarf warrior to be uber. If these were action games, more action minded and with throughly thought provoking react or die situations. Then I feel the market would have completely changed.
Ultima Online and EverQuest 1 are perfect examples of this. They were simple in their game play, but in a lot of aspects really unforgiving. Such as in EQ1 you could roam anywhere at any level. Now it seems there's restrictions, if not by levels then you have players or big red text saying.. (you're too noob to be here, go kill rats).
That's why I went off the handle with HJ's Steph and her post on MMORPG saying that HJ won't do anything surprising in the game play. That it'll follow everyone else's example of making folks take baby steps through a prescripted existance from levels 1-10.. 10-30.. 30-Cap.. Cap-Endless single zone raiding.
That's why pretty much any MMO that isn't actually breaking the mold with AI, game play, world design, open ended mechanics (to me) is just going to end up being the same ol' felgercarb.
AND I TRULY THINK... That most companies know just a few minor innovations on things that already exist packaged over the same ol felgercarb, with a pretty picture presenting it is a safe and sound way to make cash. As far as grinding goes in the end, it all basically is. With the AI always thinking the same, or rather not really thinking at all, you're just beating up the same mobile with a different skin on it. Maybe a bit more HP, but when will they actually start flanking and using the same spells players get in return. Following the same situations we always do. Hell, I guess most player groups get into the limited AI mode when playing a game long enough. Taunt, damage, heal.

And in the end I do give Blizzard more credit than Sony for trying to be innovative, but there's only so much you can do with the MMO crowd there.

This is why I think Age of Conan and Warhammer will be the next gen games to contend with. I need a action game to be satisfied now. Even if I have to go smash 1,000 lizardmen to gain enough faction for an old wizard to talk to me to start me on a new quest to smash 10,000 trogdors ;), if I get to control exactly how I get to smash them. Then I don't mind grinding at all.
 
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