History of Jack and Sloane

C

ChewsterGirl

Cadet
Hi,
this is my first "new topic." I just wanted to put out there in the peanut gallery my most lingering idea about Alias. I have always wanted there to be an episode, or a few episodes about Jack and Sloane in the early days, beginning at the CIA, or even later in the 70s when Jack marries Irina, Syd is born, Sloane and Irina have their affair (or maybe some Sloane and Emily stuff, how they met, married, etc.)
And also the car accident, ladeedah.
I just think that would be awesome.

Zara
 
Yeah, that would be interesting. They have a very complex relationship. I get the idea that Jack still considered Sloane to be a friend even when he was a double agent. From what Jack says, it sounds like he only stopped being friends with Sloane when Sydney got recruited. That seems a bit strange to me. How could Jack still be his friend when he knew that Sloane was doing bad things? It's all very interesting. I'd love to learn more.
 
MissingSark said:
Yeah, that would be interesting.  They have a very complex relationship.  I get the idea that Jack still considered Sloane to be a friend even when he was a double agent.  From what Jack says, it sounds like he only stopped being friends with Sloane when Sydney got recruited.  That seems a bit strange to me.  How could Jack still be his friend when he knew that Sloane was doing bad things?  It's all very interesting.  I'd love to learn more.
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Well, remember that Jack went very dark after Laura/Irina's car accident, and that's why he went Alliance anyway, right? So he was probably doing "bad things" too for awhile. But then Syd was recruited and he was so devastated by the idea of his daughter being caught up in that, it kind of shocked him into reform. That's kinda the impression I've gotten from the whole thing.

zara
 
^^See, I always thought that he was a double agent from the very beginning of SD-6. Maybe that's left up to personal opinion. I refuse to believe that Jack was ever actually a bad guy. He's always a good guy in disguise.
 
I've always believed the key to Sloane's endgame lies in his relationship with Jack. I wouldn't be surprised if Jack has some Rambaldi connection. Even he said in 'Breaking Point' when Sloane claimed it'd be easier for him to finish his evil work if Jack & Syd were both dead:

"Or you need us for something," Jack suggested. "Something only we can provide."

I must admit, though, I like it all being a bit mysterious between them. If J. J & co went and did flashback episodes, it would take that away. The truth will out eventually, i'm sure. And I bet it's nothing like we expected...
 
^^Agreed. I've always thought that Jack had some Rambaldi connection. That's, in part, why he's still alive. I don't believe that it's because Sloane's seeking absolution (as he said at one point). Jack's relevant to Sloane's endgame. I just wonder if Jack knows it.

I enjoy getting tidbits about their relationship. It adds so much. If there was a flashback episode, that might give too much away, but I think it would be fun for one of them to tell a story about something that happened early on in their relationship. I don't care if it's a happy or sad story. It'd be interesting either way.
 
AJB said:
I've always believed the key to Sloane's endgame lies in his relationship with Jack. I wouldn't be surprised if Jack has some Rambaldi connection. Even he said in 'Breaking Point' when Sloane claimed it'd be easier for him to finish his evil work if Jack & Syd were both dead:

"Or you need us for something," Jack suggested. "Something only we can provide."

I must admit, though, I like it all being a bit mysterious between them. If J. J & co went and did flashback episodes, it would take that away. The truth will out eventually, i'm sure. And I bet it's nothing like we expected...
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I remember this moment you are refering to but I remember it differently. I thought Jack asked Sloane why he doesn't just kill him (Jack) & Syd, and Sloane said that Jack & Syd were the last 2 people he had that meant anything to him, and Jack said, "Or you just need us for something... Something only we can provide."

I don't have the DVDs so I can't go check. Maybe someone can do a verification for us?

zara
 
You're actually both right. I looked it up just to make sure.

From Breaking Point:
Jack: I’ve been trying to think of a single reason why you saved my life… The only conclusion I’ve come to is that it would incur some feeling of debt on my part.

Sloane: As usual, Jack, you’re in danger or outsmarting yourself. The US Government has pardoned me for my crimes. The international community regards me as a humanitarian. But you and Sydney still believe I am pursuing some hidden agenda. Now, whatever you may perceive that agenda to be, clearly it would be easier to attain if you were both dead, given that you’re my most vocal detractors, my most capable antagonists.

Jack: Or you need us for something…something you believe only we can provide.

Sloane: Well….Well, you’re right about that. No humanitarian endeavor can ever fill the void left by my past crimes…like the death of my wife. You and Sydney are my absolution, my penance. You’re all I have left.
 
MissingSark said:
^^See, I always thought that he was a double agent from the very beginning of SD-6.  Maybe that's left up to personal opinion.  I refuse to believe that Jack was ever actually a bad guy.  He's always a good guy in disguise.
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I am sorry to be so argumentative. I don't like disagreeing but I have to point out this... remember when Sloane confronted Jack at that outdoor restaurant and asked Jack when he started being a double agent? Jack said "It was the moment you recruited Sydney." ?

zara
 
^^Actually, the quote is: "When did our friendship end?" "When you recruited Sydney over my objections." In another episode (I can't remember which one), Jack talks about how he had thought about recruiting Sydney into the CIA but Sloane got to her first - a mistake that he will never live down. So, that would seem to indicate that he was a CIA agent (and therefore a double) before Syd got recruited. I think Jack acts like he's an experienced double agent - like he's had a lot more than 7 years practice at it.

I don't think you're being argumentative. It helps me figure out things.
 
MissingSark said:
^^Actually, the quote is: "When did our friendship end?"  "When you recruited Sydney over my objections."  In another episode (I can't remember which one), Jack talks about how he had thought about recruiting Sydney into the CIA but Sloane got to her first - a mistake that he will never live down.  So, that would seem to indicate that he was a CIA agent (and therefore a double) before Syd got recruited.  I think Jack acts like he's an experienced double agent - like he's had a lot more than 7 years practice at it.

I don't think you're being argumentative.  It helps me figure out things.
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You are right! Wow! Thank, God Bless you for setting me straight! As I consider myself to be a serious Jack Bristow fanatic, I am very relieved to be set right on this important detail, that he was, indeed, a double agent from day one of his Alliance career. That's cool. I never thought badly about Jack because of this issue (I simply thought that the trauma of learning his wife was KGB, her "death", and his ordeal when suspected of collaborating with her made him bitter about the CIA) but, nevertheless, it is very, very good to know the actualities, obviously. So thanks again!
 
Yeah, Jack was always with the CIA. Remember also in Ep Madagascar in that scene in the car when Jack confirmed to Syd that Irina was alive? He said that he did something that he never did before, and that was to betray the CIA's trust. So, it seems like he was always loyal to the CIA and a double agent from the begining at SD-6.

I love Jack/Sloane. I want to learn more about their history and relationship. Not everything, of course but some things would be nice hear.

It does seem like Sloane needs Jack for something. He always wants Jack around. I wonder about him taking a bullet for Jack.
 
^^Ooo, good one! Anything that proves that SpyDaddy was always loyal is greatly appreciated. I've just always wondered how Jack could be friends with Sloane even when he was working against him, because I think they really were friends in the past. I just don't see how that works. It's all very complicated, but highly intriguing.
 
I don't see how they could be friends either, but maybe Jack was just seeing what he was doing earlier as just doing his job. He was going against the Alliance not Sloane. Maybe he tried to rationalize it that way, and maybe hoping that Sloane would come back from the dark side of the force, haha. I don't know. Once Sloane recruited Sydney, I guess that was the end to the rationalizing. They were definitely friends in the past. Even Irina said in S2 that he and Sloane were true friends. Sloane was his superiour so maybe Jack even looked up to Sloane as a mentor.

We don't even know how Jack was approached. After his term in solitary, did Sloane approach him to join the Alliance? After Sloane made his offer, did Jack like a good loyal agent report it to the CIA, and told him that being a double agent would be the best way to keep the Alliance from succeeding? Did the CIA, approach Jack and told him to approach Sloane to work?
 
Maybe Jack saw that Rambaldi was Sloane's endgame and not anything that the Alliance had in mind. Maybe that made it easier for him to be friends with Sloane. Maybe he DID hope to bring Sloane "back". That idea might not be too far off.

It would be interesting to learn when Jack became a double. It might be after the solitary confinement bit after Irina left. Sloane could have viewed it as an opportunity to capitalize on Jack's annoyance at the government for suspecting him. However, I think that it was before this that he became a double. Jack made that comment once about how he and Sloane had a similar devotion to their wives and a similar discontent with government (or something like that) - which makes me think that he was working with Sloane and SD-6 before Irina left. I think that Young Jack was a good loyal agent (dare I use the term "boyscout"?) and did things exactly like he was supposed to. I think it was Irina's departure and the 6 months in solitary that turned Young Jack into the Jack we know now. I think he used that to increase his standing in SD-6 because Sloane would believe that Jack hated the government. I don't know. It's just a thought.
 
On the plane in ADT, he told Irina that he and Sloane were devoted to their wives and had unsentimental patriotism. They were both loyal to their country. Jack said that Sloane had changed, and Rambaldi changed him. I think that Jack became a double at SD-6 after Irina left and his stint in solitary. I think Sloane probably thought it would be easier for Jack to leave the CIA, if he thought he was bitter etc.

I too think that Jack was sort of a boyscout and very loyal back in his younger years. Actually, he is still loyal to his country, I think. He is just a more cynical and bitter version of Vaughn and Weiss etc, because of his wife's betrayal and stuff.

Yeah, it is possible that Jack saw Sloane's endgame was Rambaldi. That was all Sloane cared about, and not the Alliance's endgame of world domination. So, it was easy to undermine the Alliance and maybe not Sloane or whatever.
 
Thanks for the ADT clarification. I forgot about the "Sloane changed" part. I do agree that it would have been logical for Sloane to approach Jack after his stint in solitary confinement. That definitely makes sense.
 
Geez, Senior Handler Filmlover and Senior Agent Missing Sark have been kicking butt on the "when did Jack become a double" question! I agree with everything.... seriously great points. Missing Sark, I do think you hit the nail on the head when you said that SLOANE believed he was sucking Jack into SD-6 at a vunerable time after Irina's death/Jack's imprisonment.

On the issue of why Jack was always friends with Sloane, I think Jack and Sloane became so close in the old days together in the CIA that Jack would have known Sloane's endgame all along. Like filmlover said, he probably rationalized it by telling himself Sloane was doing all those morally questionable things because he is blinded by the Rambaldi obsession. and Jack probably would add to himself, "but he's really a good guy..." Until of course Sloane had Sydney recruited, at which point Jack probably wanted to choke him.

Unless I'm missing or forgetting something, Jack had it in for Sloane from that moment until Breaking Point. there are too many examples of this but one was in Season 1
when Jack was reproaching Sydney for enlisting Sloane's help to find Irina and he said she could never bargain with a man like Sloane because he'd make her regret it everyday, or something like that (I know FL or MS can provide the ep title and the *Accurate* paraphrase, lol).
Another is in Season 3 when Jack went to visit Sloane in Geneva for the first time since his release from solitary.

So assuming Jack hated Sloane between Syd's recruitment and S3_BP, I wonder what was going on in that mind of his, hating the best friend he ever had.
 
Yeah, Jack was telling Sydney that if she asked Sloane for a favor, then she would spend more time than she cared to paying it back, or something along those lines. It was in ep Madagascar, I believed. I loved when Jack confronted Sloane about helping Syd find her mother. Jack said that she would only find disappointment whatever the outcome, and Sloane said that depends on what Syd is expecting and that her and Jack are two different people. I wonder what he meant by that. That was also when Sloane made that jab about being there for Syd when Jack was indisposed. I guess he was referring to Jack's drinking problem.

Yeah, it does seem like Jack didn't care much for Sloane until S3 Breaking Point, and him helping rescue Sydney. In S3, it seemed like maybe Jack was starting to like him again. In ep After Six, Jack went to see Sloane, and he felt bad about the assassination attempt on Sloane. Jack didn't seem too happy about that. Then when Sloane was framed by the Covenant, and Jack went to arrest him, he didn't seem happy about that either. He was trying to help Sloane by finding information on the Trust. Only when Jack learned about the affair did it seem that his dislike for Sloane came back.

I do wonder about goes on in Jack's mind. Especially Sloane. It does seem like Sloane has been the best friend Jack has had. He has also been a constant figure in Jack's life. They have known each other for over 30 yrs. Sloane seems to know alot about Jack, if not the most about him.

They have a strange relationship. Even all through S3, Sloane was saying Jack was one of the most important people in his life.
 
In terms of the timeline, I think I remember Jack saying in the pilot that the Alliance was formed 10 years before. That would put it around 1990. Syd was born in 1975 (I think) and Irina left when she was 5/6? That would put Jack's first imprisonment sometime around 1980/81. If my memory is right about the dates then there is a gap of about 10 years between him being released and becoming a double agent. Can anyone confirm these dates, or not, as the case may be?

Because if this is right then Irina's "death" and Jack's subsequent imprisonment can't have been the direct reason for Arvin inviting him to join the Alliance.

IMO, Jack and Sloane continued at the CIA until just before the Alliance formed. Both became increasingly disillusioned, although for different reasons, and, like friends do, they windged (spelling??) about things to each other. Then, when Arvin was approached to join the Alliance, his immediate thought was to bring his equally ticked off best friend over with him.

When did Jack become a double? I see three options here (please don't hit me for the first two, they are only options!) -

1) Jack was genuinely with the Alliance until Sloane recruited Sydney. This caused Jack to re-evaluate his position and rush back to the CIA with the offer of becoming a double agent.

2) Jack was orignally a triple agent. He and Arvin agreed that he would remain with the CIA, report Sloane's attempted recruitment of him and offer to act as a double agent in the organisation Sloane was setting up. This would allow Sloane to know what the CIA was up to and feed them disinformation if necessary. Again, Sloane's recruitment of Sydney was the catalyst for him to return his loyalty truely to the CIA.

3) Jack reported Sloane and was a double agent from the start but until Arvin recruited Sydney he never had any intention of personally betraying him. If the axe were finanlly to fall on SD6, I see him intending to turn up at Sloane's house the night before the raid, tell him the truth and hustling him and Emily out onto a waiting plane to take them away to safety.
 
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