Season 3 Isn't that what family's for?

V

verdantheart

Guest
[I might want to amend this, but I want to get it out . . . so here goes . . .]

In “Crossings” (3:12), several lines are drawn which cannot be subsequently erased. But more about those later--we must summarize, first. The episode begins as we see Sydney and Vaughn kiss before they are taken before the firing squad, Sydney giving a certain prisoner a significant look on her way out. Sydney and Vaughn exchange glances as the squad aims to fire.

Cut to 72 hours earlier during a briefing with Dixon. Dixon is discussing a certain phantom account that they’ve uncovered that contained an encoded message instead of assets. The message is from a Covenant official who wants to defect--someone with top-tier access. Dixon send sends Vaughn and Sydney to Gai-Li, North Korea to pick him up during the small 15-minute window he’s given them. After the meeting, Lauren invites Sydney to dinner during Vaughn’s hockey night.

Lauren meets with her Covenant handler, Mr Zisman, to discuss this turn of events. He says he will send an agent to intercept the defector and asks what airfield Sydney and Vaughn are leaving from because they are to be eliminated. Lauren hesitates, causing Zisman to request an explanation, but she tells him that there’s no problem, she’ll get the information.

Lauren nervously approaches Vaughn’s station to get the information. Vaughn interrupts, asking why she asked Sydney to dinner, but Lauren says she wants things to be less awkward. She gets the information on the airfield and relays it. The Covenant deploys men to shoot the pilots with an agent to sicken them.

Zisman tells Sark that the plane has been taken care of and sends him to intercept the defector. Sark wants to know who the mole in the CIA is. Zisman won’t tell him. Sark complains that after coughing up 800 million, the Covenant has proven to be ineffectual, disorganized, and disrespectful to its benefactors (namely him)--but he heads out on his mission.

In the plane, the pilots begin to get ill. Vaughn is distant toward Sydney, who finally confronts him, saying, “OK, this isn’t going to work . . . When we get back, one of us has to go.” At this point, the plane starts going down and as they get it back under control, missiles are fired on them. They turn off the engines, causing the heat-seeking missiles to find each other, but they can’t restart the engines in time and crash.

In the resulting chaos at CIA headquarters in LA, Marshall can’t bring himself to tell Lauren what happened, deferring to Jack, who calmly outlines what they know. The plane is down in North Korea and it looks like the Covenant fired missiles on the plane. Dixon calls them into his office and explains that they’ve been ordered to stand down and disavow the operation. Jack strides out of the room. Dixon continues, “Unofficially, I say screw ‘em.”

Jack contacts Irina in the parking garage asking for help. She says she might know someone and will contact him.

In North Korea, Sydney and Vaughn have emerged from the plane crash oddly unscathed. Sydney tries to contact the CIA without success. Vaughn’s arm is injured, but not seriously. The North Korean military appears and Vaughn blows up the plane as they make their escape.

As Jack continues to work feverishly, he receives an email:

SYDNEY’S APARTMENT. 8PM.

As he reads this, Jack takes a call from Sloane, who offers his help, citing OmniFam’s ties with the Premier of China. Jack tells him that he’s pursuing other options and that “If I need your help, I’ll let you know.”

In North Korea, Sydney wraps Vaughn’s arm, but she makes sure to give him a little twinge at the end. “That’s for being a jerk on the plane,” she says. Still anxious to make the meet, she heads out to look for transportation.

In Sydney’s apartment, Jack reads Sydney’s copy of Alice in Wonderland and awaits his meet. He answers the door and lets a dark-haired woman in who reports that Sydney and Vaughn are both alive. She won’t say who she is, but in exchange for the return of Sydney and Vaughn, she demands that Jack assassinate Sloane.

At LA CIA HQ, Weiss lets Lauren know that Sydney and Vaughn have survived. She must report to Zisman that they are still in play.

In North Korea, Sydney and Vaughn find a truck and repair it. As they do this, Vaughn admits that it’s been difficult for him to be around Sydney because it has always been so easy to be with her and now that’s gone. Sydney lets him know that she slept with Will and is moving on. The truck starts and they get moving.

In Koreatown, LA, Jack and his new acquaintance approach a building where a bodyguard blocks their way. Jack’s companion tells the bodyguard, “The Black Sparrow seeks an audience with Mr Cho.” She is allowed in, and insists upon entering unannounced. She explains the situation, but Mr Cho declines to offer assistance, saying that it is too dangerous. However, Ms Sparrow grabs a pair of chopsticks and impales Mr Cho’s hands with them. Meanwhile, Jack takes out Mr Cho’s bodyguards, taking a slice to the side in the process. Ms Sparrow convinces Mr Cho that he can help after all, warning him, “Don’t fail me.”

In Gai-Li, Sydney and Vaughn arrive to find that Sark is intercepting their package. Sydney puts a knife to Sark’s crotch to persuade him not to kill the defector. However, authorities arrive, upsetting the stand-off. The defector decides to bolt, Sark tries to shoot, Sydney deflects the shot, stabbing Sark in the process. The authorities manage to take Vaughn, Sydney, and the defector into custody, yet the stabbed Sark (aka Houdini) still manages to escape.

Back in LA, Jack’s guest examines his wound. Jack tells her that he needs her to check his liver to make sure that it’s intact. He then inquires which of Irina’s sisters she is, Elena or Ykaterina. She tells him that she is Katya, and that obviously Irina didn’t tell him about her. She goes on to remind him that he has a job to do for her: assassinate Arvin Sloane--and that she can “call off Mr Quan.”

In North Korea, the defector gives up Sydney and Vaughn as CIA. Sydney and Vaughn are then beaten with rifle butts.

Jack arrives at OmniFam in Zurich, game face on. Katya has a security feed and can see Jack standing in the lobby. She calls Sloane and warns him, then she calls Jack and aborts the hit. Jack is forced to cover by telling Sloane that he has a meeting locally and stopped by to let Sloane know that he is making progress in extracting Sydney and Vaughn. Sloane tells him a story about narrowly avoiding assassination by K-Directorate forces, saying, “You never forget what that feels like--to barely escape with your life”--a message to Jack that he realizes what has happened.

In the North Korean prison, Vaughn admits to Sydney that she is the “only . . . person” in his life and tries to explain why he pushed her away, but Sydney won’t let him finish. As the guards approach, she affirms, “We’ll find each other--We always find each other.” They kiss, and with that, the guards enter and take them past the defector’s cell to the firing squad. They take a last look at each other and face the guns.

But instead of the squad firing upon Sydney and Vaughn, Quan fires upon the squad and commander, taking them out. They collect the defector, whom Sydney punches out amidst his apologies.

They enter HQ in LA with their defector, greeted by handshakes and pats on the shoulder from a smiling Dixon, and a double hug from Marshall. Vaughn catches sight of Lauren and strides over to embrace her. Sydney seems a little saddened as she chats with Marshall, but when she sees Jack enter, she runs into his arms for a tight hug. Jack lets her know that he got assistance from her mother (but doesn’t tell her about the price tag).

Jack meets with Katya and complains that her maneuver with Sloane served to destroy the trust he was building up with him. They chat about Irina’s and Katya’s possible motives for this without (of course) resolve. Jack thanks her for helping Sydney and Katya responds, “Isn’t that what family’s for?” She then gives Jack a chaste kiss, telling him it’s from Irina. Immediately, she follows this up with a passionate kiss (which Jack returns). Jack, surprised, asks whom that was from, but Katya simply says, “Too many questions.”


Analysis . . .

Well, the most obvious answer, that Lauren is working for the Covenant appears to be the correct one. However, we still have a significant problem in the department of her competence. If she was a Covenant spy from day one, it doesn’t make sense. Why not? It doesn’t make sense because she is incredibly nervous. Look at the jumpy way she approaches Vaughn’s workstation. She is terrified that she might be caught. She thinks she is caught when Vaughn says, “What are you doing . . .” only to be relieved when he continued “inviting Sydney to dinner?” Then look at her expressions--she shouldn’t have the disappointment and worry written all over her face where others might be able to see her in the office--even if Weiss can’t. This does not jibe well with the woman who responded with dismay when she came upon Sydney’s foiled escape in detention. She could not have been acting then because she is not that good an actress--she is not doing a good job now. She could not have been acting as a spy when she was at ease before because she is nervous now.

Yet her Covenant handler, Zisman, appears to expect her to suffer no emotional consequences from betraying her CIA colleagues. So what’s going on here? The nerves would tend to rule out sleeper, Project Christmas (!), or brainwash, which leaves what? Very little. Extortion, perhaps, but not much else. Do they have something on her father, perhaps? They will have to come up with something that explains her mien as well as her actions.

The Covenant is now willing to kill Sydney, which means either 1) they have everything they need, eggs and Rambaldi DNA to bring about the “second coming” or 2) the Rambaldi DNA was destroyed, so Sydney is no longer of any use to them.

Moving on to the other person who needs to explain himself. You know of whom I’m speaking. Vaughn. First, Sydney explains that she’s moving on:

Sydney: I slept with Will.

Vaughn: How am I supposed to react to that? . . . Bad enough being a fugitive in North Korea, now I have to find out that you slept with Will?

S: I-I want you to know that I’m moving on. Not with Will, just generally--if it helps.

But it doesn’t help, as they both know. As they face death, admissions start to surface:

V: In my life there is only one person. The only reason I pushed you away--

. . . (Sydney stops him . . .)

S: We’ll find each other--We always find each other.

Sydney’s admission to Vaughn that she slept with Will is expected. She has always been honest with him and I, for one, expected to hear her let him know this sooner rather than later. But she’s not telling him this to make him jealous--although that is the result--but to let him know that she will be OK and will be able to move on despite how she feels about him. But Vaughn crosses the line in prison. Facing death, he admits his love for Sydney and only her. Sydney, in return, pledges the beyond-death sort of love poets wax, well, poetical over (yes, I can hear the romanticists fainting right now . . .). If I sound just a little less than fully impressed, it’s because Vaughn draws a line that can’t be erased (yes, one of the ones that I mentioned up top) and then immediately attempts to rub his foot over it by hurrying into Lauren’s arms as soon as he sees her in LA.

Sydney should ask herself, “What is wrong with this picture?” Vaughn doesn’t love Lauren--certainly not as he loves Sydney. The Vaughn-moved-on theory is washing less and less and less. Which would mean that Vaughn is keeping something from Sydney--he’d d--n well better have a better reason than last time (as you recall, his reason for keeping his investigation of Irina from Sydney was basically that Sydney wouldn’t like it and would be angry with him and give him a hard time). Well, this wouldn’t be a surprise--I’ve been suggesting this possibility for weeks now--but just what would he be keeping from her?

If Vaughn didn’t marry Lauren for love and she isn’t a cold-blooded agent, how does this equation balance? If Lauren is being blackmailed--say, her father’s dirty or part of the Covenant--perhaps Vaughn married her to investigate them (perhaps even as a way of investigating Sydney’s death). But as he adjusted to this extreme compromise, he came to be fond of Lauren, albeit not in love with her as he is with Sydney.

Wouldn’t it be nice to know if this was something that Kendall--or Dixon--knew about or was running? Clearly, if this is the shape of the weirdness surrounding Vaughn, Jack is unaware of it, as his warnings to Vaughn clearly demonstrate. But would Jack act so very differently if this were indeed the case and he were aware of it? He would definitely want Vaughn to back off for the duration--and in my estimation, he’d have the most severe reservations about the level of trust between Sydney and Vaughn that Vaughn is both willing and able to withhold this information from her.

And we can look to Jack’s own behavior to back this opinion up. Katya gives form to a question that’s been nagging at the back of my mind for some time--that Jack might well have known about Irina’s status well before things blew up and she disappeared. “As observant as you are, you were married to my sister for five years [until 1976, after Sydney was born] without suspecting who she really was. Her love must have been intoxicating.” So, did Irina, realizing that Jack was catching on, do the one thing she knew that would keep him from acting on his knowledge--become pregnant? Irina, knowing the type of man that Jack is, would know that he’d put his child first, before country. Or was that simply a happy circumstance for her? For Jack could not stand to take Sydney’s mother away from her in appalling circumstances, as a reviled foreign spy--an assassin. He could not be responsible for that. So there was, in fact, solid basis for the government’s suspecting Jack of conspiring with the enemy.

One wonders if Jack found out about Irina before he confronted her (longer than the five years). However, I doubt he could have found out before Sydney’s conception because in that case Jack would have been compelled to turn Irina in. What Irina was doing was too damaging and the betrayal was too great. Without Sydney, I don’t see how Jack could live with it, as much as he loves Irina. He might give her a running start, but that is all.

So Jack’s torment began far earlier than we had imagined. For more about how I think this might have affected Jack and his marriage, please see the Spy dad column, which I hope will come soon.

Meanwhile, Katya uses this opportunity to send Sloane a message: “Back off Irina.” This suggests that Sloane is applying some sort of pressure on Irina. Or is it something else? A message to Irina through Sloane to back off of her (Katya)? Or to stop working with Irina? No matter how you read it, it’s problematic. (If the message is ambiguous, one can understand why Sloane would respond, “I’m not sure how I’m supposed to take that.”) If the message comes from Irina, you have a mother threatening her daughter’s life to coerce the father of her child into assassinating a “friend”; if not (Katya working as her own agent to send a message back through Sloane), you have the mixed message of Katya telling Irina to back off by threatening Sloane’s life--how does this make sense? Either way, the message is more than that. By sending Jack as the assassin, she says, “No matter how protected you think you are, you’re not--even from your friends--even from [Jack]. Your continuing life is a favor from me [either Irina or Katya, likely Katya].” It is another line--one that Jack crosses and cannot erase. Jack assumes the likely conclusion that Irina and Katya are working more or less together (how will this play to Irina’s advantage--or your own?).

The problem is, the kind of opportunity to coerce a man like Jack (extreme danger to Sydney that he depends on you to save her from), doesn’t exactly come along every day. Katya can’t just call up Jack and say, “Could you go shoot Sloane for me today, honey? There’s a good boy.”

But just what is the relationship between Sloane and Irina right now? There are teasing hints that there must be something (see last week). Yet there are few clues indeed. Let’s set that aside.

Katya sends Jack to show Sloane how easy it would be to send someone close to him to kill him. And Sloane tips Jack off that Katya tipped him off. Sloane wants Jack to know how he’s been used. Jack is upset that the trust that he’s built up with Sloane has been compromised and wonders how this works to Irina’s--or Katya’s--advantage.

So what was the primary purpose of this exercise? Showing Sloane that he can be reached? Or undermining Jack’s level of trust with Sloane? Sloane is depending on Jack to partner with him, so the aim might well be to undermine Jack’s plans of regaining some of Sloane’s trust.

Meanwhile, just what is family for? Only a Derevko would demand a murder in exchange for her daughter’s--or even her niece’s life. Is it Irina or Katya who makes this demand? Note that Jack only hesitates to ask a question or two before heading to Zurich--he doesn’t dare assume that blood is thicker than water with the Derevko sisters. And who knows what--or how much--he knows about Katya.

Examining Jack’s own motives, why exactly does he turn to Irina and not Sloane? Jack earlier turned to Sloane for help in rescuing Sydney as we saw. He now turns to Irina, although, as Sloane points out, Sloane has connections that could save both Sydney and Vaughn as well--potentially without the price that Katya eventually binds Jack to. We cannot be certain, of course, that Jack wouldn’t have attempted to stage Sloane’s death--although at that stage of events Jack might have been unwilling to gamble with his daughter’s life--but he certainly plays it straight on his way into the lobby where he could have been watched.

Does Jack need to maintain trust with Irina for the same reasons that he does with Sloane? Jack clearly wants to maintain ties with both of them, creating a triangle between Sloane, Jack, and Irina. It almost looks as though Jack were the prize in some sort of interesting war between Sloane and Irina. Do they want Jack to get to Sydney? Or does he hold a key of his own?

To Jack’s credit, he tells Sydney that he obtained her mother’s help in getting them out. However, you note that he did not tell her about the price tag. Is this because he wants to protect Sydney from knowing yet another bad thing about her mother (a potentially dangerous course) or because he cannot know whether the price was applied by Irina or by Katya? Jack seems to believe that he still must attempt to shield Sydney from dealings with her mother--and why not? In his previous experience, Sydney proved anything but capable of handling the task of coping with her mother’s manipulative prowess in the face of Sydney’s own deep need for a loving mother--based on a tissue of happy memories that we now know were propped up by the brute will of Jack himself, determined not to allow his own tragedy to spill over into the life of his daughter--apparently a tragedy of loss and betrayal that he could forestall, but not erase--lines long ago crossed, bridges forever burned.

Again, we see all kinds of parallels with and echoes from episodes past . . . Katya demands that Jack assassinate Sloane in exchange for Sydney and Vaughn’s lives and aborts the mission; in “Counteragent” (2:07), Sark demands that Sydney assassinate Sloane in exchange for Vaughn’s life and revives Sloane. “Crossings” has resonance with “Passage” (2:08-09) in that both involved family ties and difficulties in foreign territory (and in the names of the episodes themselves). Further, the scene in which Katya examines Jack has an odd resonance with “A Dark Turn” (2:17) as the two almost seem to use examining Jack’s wound (vs removing Irina’s tracking chip) as a peculiar way of flirting--and, of course, that was the last time that Jack seems to have received a romantic kiss.


Random thoughts . . .

Our little family has been enlarged by one (Katya, Irina’s sister), and another possible character (Elena, another sister) has been mentioned. Too bad Jack doesn’t seem to have any family. He could use a couple of brothers to even up the teams . . .

To those who guess that Katya is Irina: Please, give Jack a little credit! If he can guess that this woman is one of Irina's sisters, don’t you think he could guess that she’s the woman that he spent all that time with? Especially after that final kiss? Plus, with a lack of helix technology, there's a bit of a height difference . . . (Besides, I don’t think that the production team is quite ready to give up on Ms Olin yet. They are going to let the fans work on her a little . . .)

Yes, I noticed that Jack was reading Sydney’s copy of Alice in Wonderland all by myself.

Yes, it was nice to see Mr Vosloo as Mr Zisman. And Sark? Can we say “petulant”?

OK, loving the fact that Sydney ran to her father’s arms as soon as she saw him. At last he knows some of the joy of feeling that his love is returned--that Sydney is beginning to understand that he does, in fact, love her--that Sydney can now begin turning to him for some comfort in times of sadness. And now Jack can hold his daughter instead of forever holding back.


Discuss . . .

Why do you think the Covenant is willing to kill Sydney? Do you think they still have Rambaldi DNA and her eggs on ice, or do you think Rambaldi’s DNA was destroyed in the raid?

Why do you think Jack turns to Irina for help rather than Sloane? He has turned to Sloane in the past.

What do you think Irina’s agenda is? Do you think Katya’s is the same?

Do you think the order to assassinate Sloane came from Irina or Katya? What do you think of Irina’s/Katya’s placing a price tag on saving her own daughter/niece?

Do you think Katya’s more important agenda was to 1) deliver the message to back off; 2) tell Sloane that they can reach him with whomever they want whenever they want; or 3) drive a wedge between Jack and Sloane?

Do you think the case is that Irina is working more closely with Sloane or more closely with Katya--that is, is the message “Sloane, back off of Irina,” or “Sloane, tell Irina to back off [of me]”?

Why do you think Sloane let Jack know that he was tipped off to the assassination attempt?

Do you think Irina and Sloane are vying for Jack’s loyalties? (Although Jack’s loyalty is expected to lie steadfastly with Sydney and only tentatively with either of these two.)

Compare Sydney’s policy of honesty with Vaughn (telling him about her interlude with Will for example) with his history of withholding from her. Do you agree that she was right to let him know about this as a way of letting him know she’s moving on?

Do you agree that Vaughn is withholding something (something that he began to explain)? If so, what? Do you think he cares for Lauren? How much?

In a related question, do you really think that Lauren has been a Covenant spy all along? If so, how do you explain her nerves and incompetence? Do you think she cares for Vaughn?

Do you think that Sydney and Vaughn are, indeed, soul mates? If so, how do you account for Vaughn’s tendency to break trust with Sydney? (To really put an edge on the point, let me tease you with this: Is he playing Irina to Sydney’s Jack?) Going on from my hypothetical thought, do you think Jack and Irina are soul mates? Which union do you think is most tragic?


Next:
Good question. We have another long wait. * heavy sigh *
 
Verdantheart, wonderful job as always. (y) (y)
And as always you have given me more questions!!!!!!

1. I can't believe the Covenant would go to all the trouble they have without having a backup. I think they are trying to kill Syd because she is not only the solution to their problems (the harvested eggs) but, she is also the biggest potential threat (If anyone could stop them Syd could)

2.Jack turned to Irina for one reason - she is Syd's mother, Jack is keeping it "in the family." Since Irina is MIA she has greater freedom than Sloane, who is still on a CIA leash.

3. Who knows. I don't think anyone has any idea if Irina's motivations and I suspect Katya will be the same

4. I think Irina sent Katya to help out, but the plan itself is Katya's, this makes more sense with the price tag. Katya has never met Syd and I believe you're right by saying blood is not always thicker that water in the Derevko family. The price tag could be Katya working her own angle.

5. ummmm 1,2,3, all of the above. Who knows??

6.I'm leaning towards Katya working closely with Irina. Irina is weary of Sloane especially where it concerns Syd ie. "Never speak of your love for my daughter again"

7. Once again who knows? It could be to mess with him a little, or it could be a sort of 'I know and I understand' without saying it. Sloane know how devoted Jack is to Syd and what lengths he would go to in order to protect her (If he didn't he does now :lol:smiley:

8. Almost certainly, Jack for whatever reason is important to both Sloane and Irina.

9.Yes!! Vaughn told her he has moved on now she's telling him. It took her long enough though.

10. Beats me, but I do think he does care for Lauren but Syd holds his heart.

11. I can't envision her as always working for the covenant, not in her current state anyway, yet she would kill her husband and Syd for them and she has killed Lazarey.
Something very strange is going on here.... They must be holding something huge over her that she is willing to throw away her life for.

12. Syd and Vaughn??? I don't know. But I am a J/I shipper so I have to say yeah Jack and Irina are soulmates, they are each others equals yet opposites. J/I is more tragic - Irina damn near broke Jack when she left and he still loves her.

Phew!!! my fingers need a holiday after that!!!
 
Great column VH!! (y) (y) can't believe i'm first to reply for once...unless someone beats me while i waffle on!! :P

Why do you think the Covenant is willing to kill Sydney? Do you think they still have Rambaldi DNA and her eggs on ice, or do you think Rambaldi’s DNA was destroyed in the raid?
i actually didn't even notice :blink: - typical that you pick out something so major and it just washed right over me. :lol: but now u pointed it out - i'm not sure really - it would be sad if the DNA was gone cos that would be the end of the Rambaldi story!! :(

Why do you think Jack turns to Irina for help rather than Sloane? He has turned to Sloane in the past.
Cos Syd is their daughter - I think it's that simple ^_^ - he found a lead and followed it through knowing it would be good.

What do you think Irina’s agenda is? Do you think Katya’s is the same?
God knows - i still think Irina , Sloane and Sark are all connected somehow - i've been saying it since the start of the season.....dunno what her plans are though if its not about rambaldi anymore. :thinking:

Do you think the order to assassinate Sloane came from Irina or Katya? What do you think of Irina’s/Katya’s placing a price tag on saving her own daughter/niece?
Not sure - seemed to be from Irina cos of the "back off Irina" quote - trading a baddie for her daughter didn't suprise me at all. :smiley:

Do you think Katya’s more important agenda was to 1) deliver the message to back off; 2) tell Sloane that they can reach him with whomever they want whenever they want; or 3) drive a wedge between Jack and Sloane?
All three!!! :Ph34r: I think Irina saw her chance and pounced! :Ph34r:

Do you think the case is that Irina is working more closely with Sloane or more closely with Katya--that is, is the message “Sloane, back off of Irina,” or “Sloane, tell Irina to back off [of me]”?
I saw the message as BACK OFF IRINA - implying Sloane is doing something to her, pressurising Irina somehow.

Why do you think Sloane let Jack know that he was tipped off to the assassination attempt?
to let Jack know he crossed a line. :cool:

Do you think Irina and Sloane are vying for Jack’s loyalties? (Although Jack’s loyalty is expected to lie steadfastly with Sydney and only tentatively with either of these two.)
Maybe yes. Although i think they have probably both realised Jacks one and only agenda is Syd!!!!

Compare Sydney’s policy of honesty with Vaughn (telling him about her interlude with Will for example) with his history of withholding from her. Do you agree that she was right to let him know about this as a way of letting him know she’s moving on?
Syd did herself proud by being the honest, open girl she always has been with Vaughn. Telling him about Will was a good way of letting him know she's moving on plus she probably felt a little bad for sleeping with Will (cos to her it was only a few weeks/months since her and vaughn). What i loved was the way she explained it away - "we got drunk" - as though it wouldn't have happened otherwise......still admitting she's not moved on really, but she is trying to! :smiley: :rolleyes:
Onto Vaughn - he has held things back from her i the past yes , maybe he is doing now as well, but you can't really say too much about it - some people aren't as open as others - Syd is always very open with Vaughn - but when Vaughn says "professionally we never kept secrets" - he is kinda fibbing a little i must admit. But i don't wanna slag him too much cos i'm still waiting to see whats coming!!!!! hopefully he'll redeem himself! :smiley: :smiley:

Do you agree that Vaughn is withholding something (something that he began to explain)? If so, what? Do you think he cares for Lauren? How much?
I'm not sure what is going on with the whole vaughn, lauren thing. I think all he was gonna say to Syd was that she's the only person he loves - period!! :blush: that nobody else matters. i don't think he was gonna say anything more than that. BUT - thats not to say he doesn't have more to add - maybe in the future. ;)
And Lauren - he does seem to care for her - but i dunno - maybe its fake - not sure - he obviously doesn't love her as much as Syd anyway.

In a related question, do you really think that Lauren has been a Covenant spy all along? If so, how do you explain her nerves and incompetence? Do you think she cares for Vaughn?
No i don't :Ph34r: - i think this would be too easy and wouldn't fit. She helped Syd escape the prison, she investigated the murder of Lazeray, she was threatened by Sark, she's seems nervous, she's doing things out of character all of a sudden- like asking syd for dinner. Something has changed for her - i'm not sure how long ago but i think her ties to the covenant are recent and have a reason behind them - possibly her dad is tied into it as you said VH.
I don't think she cares for Vaughn cos she ordered him to be killed!! How could she do it if she really cared for him!? b****! :angry:

Do you think that Sydney and Vaughn are, indeed, soul mates? If so, how do you account for Vaughn’s tendency to break trust with Sydney? (To really put an edge on the point, let me tease you with this: Is he playing Irina to Sydney’s Jack?) Going on from my hypothetical thought, do you think Jack and Irina are soul mates? Which union do you think is most tragic?
Yes i believe s/v are soulmates. Vaughn doesn't break her trust - he just makes mistakes - he's guy - cut him some slack!! ;) Stop teasing - he is not and never will be Irina!!!! -_-
I also see evidence of soulmates with jack and irina too - but her betrayal was far more major than anything Vaughn has done (ok, i'll add yet just for you VJ! ;) ) and it kinds of makes the relationship a little less easy. then again - the fact they are still so loving after all they have been through almost makes them better soulmates i guess.

enough already - farewell!!!! :smiley: :smiley: :smiley:
 
Discuss . . .

Why do you think the Covenant is willing to kill Sydney? Do you think they still have Rambaldi DNA and her eggs on ice, or do you think Rambaldi’s DNA was destroyed in the raid?
I think they had the wrong idea from the start. Remember they have a fanatical theory...They have not peeked into JJ's mind. ^_^

Why do you think Jack turns to Irina for help rather than Sloane? He has turned to Sloane in the past.
But Sydney is her daughter and Jack knows she loves her. He did say she was the one person he could trust when it came to Sydney.
I wouldn't trust Sloane further than I could spit and that's not too far! He's been far to nice, but smarmy during this season. Do I feel that there is a hell of a season ending show????

What do you think Irina’s agenda is? Do you think Katya’s is the same?
How I love this show! Just as you think what else?, along comes Katya. I liked this show a lot if only because there was more Jack and then Katya...There is all kind of conjecture when it comes to Irina. She left Sydney with THE WORD that she was IT and not her. No one supposedly has seen her and only Jack has spoken with her by computer (However, I have no doubt that he saw Irina when he thought Sydney was dead.) She could be in hiding because of Sloane's turning in all the terrorists. She could be biding her time somewhere in Europe or Russia. She could be working for SVR. Our writers have left us a dearth of information about her. Oh the speculations. Katya, I believe, is working with Irina in some capacity and she is also aware that Sloane is somehow after IRina.


Do you think the order to assassinate Sloane came from Irina or Katya? What do you think of Irina’s/Katya’s placing a price tag on saving her own daughter/niece?
I think either could have ordered the assassination, BUT knowing Jack's love for their daughter, Irina knew Jack would do it for Sydney and possibly she told Katya.
Their motive was to place Jack and Sloane apart and they did.

Do you think Katya’s more important agenda was to 1) deliver the message to back off; 2) tell Sloane that they can reach him with whomever they want whenever they want; or 3) drive a wedge between Jack and Sloane?
All of the above...

Do you think the case is that Irina is working more closely with Sloane or more closely with Katya--that is, is the message “Sloane, back off of Irina,” or “Sloane, tell Irina to back off [of me]”?
No it was to Sloane to back off Irina. This has to do with Rambaldi front and center.

Why do you think Sloane let Jack know that he was tipped off to the assassination attempt?
"Oh ho ho, I know what you were going to do, bad boy." Something like that.

Do you think Irina and Sloane are vying for Jack’s loyalties? (Although Jack’s loyalty is expected to lie steadfastly with Sydney and only tentatively with either of these two.)
It depends, but I would hope Jack would back his wife, especially since now she helped get their daughter back safely. (But hell, that's the romantic in me. I should know better considering this show.) :(

Compare Sydney’s policy of honesty with Vaughn (telling him about her interlude with Will for example) with his history of withholding from her. Do you agree that she was right to let him know about this as a way of letting him know she’s moving on?
Wait, wait! Why should she tell him anything, the wuss! I mean she might have felt honesty and truth was the right thing in the past, but look what he did to her. She doesn't have to tell him anything at this moment. Why in the world in the middle of North Korea, would she do that! I personally thot it stupid at that moment in time.


Do you agree that Vaughn is withholding something (something that he began to explain)? If so, what? Do you think he cares for Lauren? How much?
Yes, but what I'm not sure. I would hate to think the ploy used previously IRina marries Jack for information...etc etc. I think he does, but not as much now that Sydney has returned.

In a related question, do you really think that Lauren has been a Covenant spy all along? If so, how do you explain her nerves and incompetence? Do you think she cares for Vaughn?
No! It looks like she is, but as you said above, she's far too nervous about stuff now. Brainwashed, hummm...looking doubtful unless she was up to this point. I still think Sloane has something to do WITH ALL OF THIS!

Do you think that Sydney and Vaughn are, indeed, soul mates? If so, how do you account for Vaughn’s tendency to break trust with Sydney? (To really put an edge on the point, let me tease you with this: Is he playing Irina to Sydney’s Jack?) Going on from my hypothetical thought, do you think Jack and Irina are soul mates? Which union do you think is most tragic?
The most tragic is Jack and Irina AND the most romantic. This is the real love affair that's been going on a long time. Soul mates, possibly, because somehow and someway they find each other. Vaughn and Sydney are lovers but I don't think they fit the words soul mate. The trust Sydney has is not being returned and
I want to punch him out.
I'm with my soul mate whom I saw three years before we became lovers. I knew that moment we were destined to be with each other for the rest of our lives.

Great stuff.
Oh BTW in my column on another site, the final question I asked, was who is Isabella Rosellini? So far no one has told me all about her. Film buff that I am...

Your #1 fan :cool:
 
Analysis . . .

Well, the most obvious answer, that Lauren is working for the Covenant appears to be the correct one. However, we still have a significant problem in the department of her competence. If she was a Covenant spy from day one, it doesn’t make sense. Why not? It doesn’t make sense because she is incredibly nervous. Look at the jumpy way she approaches Vaughn’s workstation. She is terrified that she might be caught. She thinks she is caught when Vaughn says, “What are you doing . . .” only to be relieved when he continued “inviting Sydney to dinner?” Then look at her expressions--she shouldn’t have the disappointment and worry written all over her face where others might be able to see her in the office--even if Weiss can’t. This does not jibe well with the woman who responded with dismay when she came upon Sydney’s foiled escape in detention. She could not have been acting then because she is not that good an actress--she is not doing a good job now. She could not have been acting as a spy when she was at ease before because she is nervous now.

Hopefully Lauren is being black-mailed into helping them, because as you said she certainly doesn't seem that confident right now. Its not working for me, to know that she is Covenant from the beginning, because it wouldn't make any sense ...
 
I think we're all forgetting Lindsey's character too easily. He was going to such great lengths to get rid of Syd. She has something on hima dn potentially ground breaking stuff that spin the show around yet again. We'll have to see.
 
The most tragic is Jack and Irina AND the most romantic. This is the real love affair that's been going on a long time. Soul mates, possibly, because somehow and someway they find each other.
Couldn't agree more. Nice column, VH. Always a pleasure to read.

*bows*
 
Thanks for your kind praise, as always! :smiley:

lenafan said:
Why do you think Sloane let Jack know that he was tipped off to the assassination attempt?
"Oh ho ho, I know what you were going to do, bad boy." Something like that.
Ah, but I think he also wants to make sure that there is no more trust between Jack and Irina than between Jack and him (Sloane).

I would hope Jack would back his wife, especially since now she helped get their daughter back safely. (But hell, that's the romantic in me. 
I'll say! I'd hope that Jack would never wrecklessly team up with Irina and always watch his back around her--he can never know when she will stab him there . . . :(

I'm with my soul mate whom I saw three years before we became lovers. I knew that moment we were destined to be with each other for the rest of our lives.
I cannot tell you how happy I am for you! :D I can honestly say that I am happily married (for a long time, too) and that I love my husband--but I think he would agree that we are not soul mates.

Oh BTW in my column on another site, the final question I asked, was who is Isabella Rosellini? So far no one has told me all about her. Film buff that I am...
Sadly, her talents have been underused. See her filmography at the IMDb. Her most noted films probably include Blue Velvet, Death Becomes Her, and Wyatt Earp.

I think we're all forgetting Lindsey's character too easily. He was going to such great lengths to get rid of Syd. She has something on hima dn potentially ground breaking stuff that spin the show around yet again. We'll have to see.
I'm certainly not forgetting him, and I did have a little to say about him in some of the speculative comments concerning Lauren following my column last week. However, he's dead and we can't learn anything directly from him right now. We have to wait until something turns up.
;)
 
(To really put an edge on the point, let me tease you with this: Is he playing Irina to Sydney’s Jack?)

Okay, just had to say ouch! Yipes. Yes, I'm an SV shipper, and yes, I'm hopeless, but no, that's not all I care about. It's just all I have time for now because I'm supposed to be studying for exams. :smiley:blush:smiley: But hopefully, you can't quite compare Vaughn to Irina just yet (thank goodness). But, after the episode, I called him an idiot myself. Dark times, dark times. You know somehow they are going to get back together, but you just can't do it like that. It doesn't work and sucks the life out of everything.
 
Patomac said:
(To really put an edge on the point, let me tease you with this: Is he playing Irina to Sydney’s Jack?)

Okay, just had to say ouch! Yipes. Yes, I'm an SV shipper, and yes, I'm hopeless, but no, that's not all I care about. It's just all I have time for now because I'm supposed to be studying for exams. :smiley:blush:smiley: But hopefully, you can't quite compare Vaughn to Irina just yet (thank goodness). But, after the episode, I called him an idiot myself. Dark times, dark times. You know somehow they are going to get back together, but you just can't do it like that. It doesn't work and sucks the life out of everything.
Sure I can. I said this to get a response. Of course Vaughn isn't as untrustworthy as Irina is. However, he hasn't been open and he's holding something back now. I smell it--something's fishy and stinking to high heaven. But if Vaughn wants to have a good relationship with Sydney and not move into the tragic territory that Jack has been forced to set up housekeeping with Irina, he'd better learn to open up--and quick. There are things that are more important than compartmentalization and missions and keeping secrets to "protect" people. If you are in a partnership--and that's what a marriage is, my friends--you must be open with one another (it's not as though Sydney were not also an agent and had no reason to know or couldn't be trusted with what he could tell her). I suspect this is what Jack brought to his marriage--God knows Irina did not; it's what Sydney is bringing to her relationship with Vaughn, but Vaughn has not been reliably returning, and often to protect what? Not even Sydney, but his own feelings (the Irina investigation).
;)
 
verdantheart Posted on Jan 20 2004, 09:12 PM
Sadly, her talents have been underused. See her filmography at the IMDb. Her most noted films probably include Blue Velvet, Death Becomes Her, and Wyatt Earp.
Yes, and maybe it's the fault of an agent too. But then maybe after a few episodes here we'll see happen to her that happened with Lena. More parts offered, I hope.
AND will we see Elena sometime? I sure hope Katya and Sydney meet. I liked her take on the Katya part...ooooh that chopstick scene. :rolleyes: I wrote that in a serial but it was Irina and it was knives, not chopsticks. But it did remind me somewhat of the Bangkok scene in ADT. :thinking:
Still it's interesting to note no one has told me all about Isabella, you know. :smiley:
:cool:
 
lenafan said:
Still it's interesting to note no one has told me all about Isabella, you know. :smiley:
:cool:
What, you mean that she's the daughter of Ingrid Bergman and Roberto Rossellini? My mother told me how she disapproved . . .
:lol:
 
Since my answers to the questions aren't really that different than some of the answers I've already read, I'm going to comment on other things. I'm a non-conformist! Mwahahahah!! ^_^

So what’s going on here? The nerves would tend to rule out sleeper, Project Christmas (!), or brainwash, which leaves what? Very little. Extortion, perhaps, but not much else. Do they have something on her father, perhaps? They will have to come up with something that explains her mien as well as her actions.
But what I don't understand is...If it's extortion or blackmail, and it's fairly recent, does that mean it's only commenced after Lauren and Vaughn were married? Since we're going by the discrepancies between her current ineptitude at being a double agent and her seeming guilessness a few months ago, I'm assuming that would have to be the case. So that means, she married Vaughn because she loved him, but after they were married, something occured - some form of blackmail - and she's now forced to work for the Covenant. If that's the way it is, wouldn't she show just a little more emotion at ordering her own husband killed? Sure, she looked a little wistful when she was gazing at the picture of her and Vaughn, but even Irina loved Jack, and she was the master of cool calculations.

What could Lauren possibly care about enough to toss away the life of her own husband? Her father? That's unlikely. And even if she was forced into this, she'd show some emotion. What they seem to be going for is a portrayal of Lauren as a true villainess. Notice how she invited Syd to dinner, knowing there was a possibility Syd would be dead by then? And then tossed off that little "see you next Tuesday" remark (which, BTW, if anyone doesn't know what that stands for, see the quotes section :lol: ). Lauren is having fun with this. She may be awkward about her technique, but she doesn't appear to be tormented or even really concerned.

The only thing I can imagine is that they really are going to be consistent with the "Lauren is Covenant" storyline, and just go from there. J.J. said in an interview last week that they'd planned to have Lauren be Covenant from the beginning, but they had to make the viewers feel like they should try to like her (even though they really couldn't) before the revelation. So, as inconsistent as it seems, maybe we just have to accept it. But it's just not sitting right with me. For a show that has such consistently good writing, I really want this to be satisfactorily explained.

Our little family has been enlarged by one (Katya, Irina’s sister), and another possible character (Elena, another sister) has been mentioned. Too bad Jack doesn’t seem to have any family. He could use a couple of brothers to even up the teams . . .
For some reason, I have no idea why, I always expected Irina to have two sisters. It just seems like she comes from a family of strong women. So, who do you think should play Elena? Since they bothered to mention her by name, that must mean they're toying with the possibility (especially if LO refuses to ever come back.) My mom thinks Barbara Hershey looks like Irina. The only thing I remember Barbara Hershey in is "Beaches," and I can't think of "Beaches" without thinking of Bette Midler, so it clouds my judgement. :P

EDIT: Okay, I just looked at some pictures of her, and she does look like Lena Olin! Look at this one and this one.

OK, loving the fact that Sydney ran to her father’s arms as soon as she saw him. At last he knows some of the joy of feeling that his love is returned--that Sydney is beginning to understand that he does, in fact, love her--that Sydney can now begin turning to him for some comfort in times of sadness. And now Jack can hold his daughter instead of forever holding back.
That's the only, I repeat the ONLY, thing I like about Sydney and Vaughn being estranged. Jack is really the only man in her life right now. She can finally depend on him in a way that she never could growing up, and their scenes together have been some of the most touching moments of this year. She's going through life stages in reverse, but at least she's experiencing them at all!
 
Why do you think the Covenant is willing to kill Sydney? Do you think they still have Rambaldi DNA and her eggs on ice, or do you think Rambaldi’s DNA was destroyed in the raid?

I think the Covenant is willing to kill Sydney now because I believe that Sark got away with everything he needs - Syd's eggs and Rambaldi's DNA. If they needed Syd, they wouldn't have tried to kill her. But, I don't think Syd is as dumb as she seems. I have my doubts as to whether that is really Rambaldi's DNA at all - or if Syd switched it with someone else's and either destroyed the real DNA or hid the real DNA someplace much safer than a hotel security box.

Why do you think Jack turns to Irina for help rather than Sloane? He has turned to Sloane in the past.

I think, when it comes down to it, despite Irina's many betrayals of Jack, I think he trusts her more. Plus, Sloane is on a shorter leash because of his CIA pardon. I also believe that Jack feels that Irina cares about Sydney more than Sloane does, with her being her mother and all.

What do you think Irina’s agenda is? Do you think Katya’s is the same?

I have no idea. I think Irina's agenda will have to do with Bill Vaughn, and Rambaldi, to be honest. When Katya said something about Irina's intentions presenting themself to Jack one day, well, it just made me think that Irina has been up to something for the past thirty years - something besides being a double agent for the CIA/KGB back in the day. I think that Irina isn't really a bad "guy" - that she's made the choices in her life because she had to, not necessarily because she wanted to. There is a something more going on here, and I think it's something big, something that goes back to when Sloane, Jack, Irina, Bill Vaughn, etc. were all in the CIA together in the 70's - right around the time when Sloane and Irina got Rambaldi fever. And Katya - I don't think she necessarily shares Irina's agenda. As we know, everyone on this show has a different agenda.

Do you think the order to assassinate Sloane came from Irina or Katya? What do you think of Irina’s/Katya’s placing a price tag on saving her own daughter/niece?

I think the order came from Irina. I think that Sloane may be trying to blackmail her in some way, and that she's grown tired of it. Also, Sloane may be trying to do something to hurt Sydney - and Irina knows this and wants him eliminated before he can do anything else to hurt her. Since it seems like Sloane played a part in her missing two years, Irina probably feels like Sloane already partially ruined Syd's life. Also, I think it may have been a test for Jack from Irina. To see if he'd actually kill Sloane just because Katya said so. I think that Irina/Katya was totally bluffing all along, and would have saved Syd regardless.

Do you think Katya’s more important agenda was to 1) deliver the message to back off; 2) tell Sloane that they can reach him with whomever they want whenever they want; or 3) drive a wedge between Jack and Sloane?

I think 3. I think Katya and maybe Irina need Sloane and Jack to not be close or even trust each other, for some reason. I don't know that reason though.

Do you think the case is that Irina is working more closely with Sloane or more closely with Katya--that is, is the message “Sloane, back off of Irina,” or “Sloane, tell Irina to back off [of me]”?

I think Sloane is working more closely with Katya. He knew her simply by her voice. And, I think that Irina has grown tired of working with Sloane. I think maybe Irina sent Katya to work with him so she wouldn't have to, but she would still be able to keep tabs on what he was up to and keep him from hurting Sydney.

Why do you think Sloane let Jack know that he was tipped off to the assassination attempt?

I think Sloane wanted Jack to know that he (Sloane) knows what Jack is up to at all times. I think Sloane wants Jack to know that not much gets past him, and that he should watch his step, because Sloane knows Jack as well as Jack knows him.

Do you think Irina and Sloane are vying for Jack’s loyalties? (Although Jack’s loyalty is expected to lie steadfastly with Sydney and only tentatively with either of these two.)

In a way, yes. I think that by asking Jack to kill Sloane, it's almost as if Irina is saying, pick me or pick him. Which is it? Although we know Jack would do anything to keep Syd safe, if he really didn't want to kill Sloane, he probably could have asked for Sloane's help in N. Korea rather than turning to the Derevko family. And now, Katya told Sloane that Jack was going to kill him so that any trust Sloane had built with Jack was gone. Irina or Katya wanted this relationship severed.

Compare Sydney’s policy of honesty with Vaughn (telling him about her interlude with Will for example) with his history of withholding from her. Do you agree that she was right to let him know about this as a way of letting him know she’s moving on?

I don't think he had any right to know about her sexual activities, since he's married to someone else. But, I think Syd told him because, in a way, she feels disloyal to him. They never actually broke up, and to Syd, when she had sex with Will, she had only been away from Vaughn for a few months, at the most, at least in her mind. I think Vaughn has usually been pretty honest with Syd, but he does keep things from her when he thinks she'll be in danger or get hurt. I think she was right in letting him know that she's moved on. But, I think that by the way she talked about her interlude with Will "we were drunk" it was almost like she was trying to give Vaughn some sort of excuse for what they did, as if she needed one. It was almost like Syd was saying, Vaughn I'm sorry I had sex with Will, but we were drunk, it didn't mean anything. I think this just shows that she hasn't moved on yet. She's trying very hard, but she hasn't.

Do you agree that Vaughn is withholding something (something that he began to explain)? If so, what? Do you think he cares for Lauren? How much?

I do think Vaughn is withholding something. I think that he knows that Lauren is a double agent, or knows something is wrong with her. Unless, of course, he was brainwashed. I think that he knows Lauren is bad, and married her for intel regarding Syd's death. I don't think he can tell Sydney now though, because he knows her life would be put in danger (though her life was definitely in danger because of the Covenant in Crossings, so I don't know how that theory holds up). If he knows about her being a mole, I don't think he cares about her at all. If he's been brainwashed, well, then I think he cares about her somewhat. I think he feels about her like one might a good friend. I mean, the hug they shared when he got back from N. Korea was about as passionate as the hug he shared with Marshall!

In a related question, do you really think that Lauren has been a Covenant spy all along? If so, how do you explain her nerves and incompetence? Do you think she cares for Vaughn?

I think she has been a spy all along. However, until now, I don't think that she's had to do anything in particular, other than just pass along intel. I mean, she did say something in this episode about how she had jeopardized her standing within the CIA. That means that she'd never had to do anything too spy-like up until now (and the Lazarey murder). I do think she cares for Vaughn a little bit. Regardless of whether he knows about her or not, she doesn't know he knows, if he even does. Whatever, he has been playing the doting husband. She probably feels a little guilty, like oh, he loves me and he's so nice, I feel a little bad about playing him this way.

Do you think that Sydney and Vaughn are, indeed, soul mates? If so, how do you account for Vaughn’s tendency to break trust with Sydney? (To really put an edge on the point, let me tease you with this: Is he playing Irina to Sydney’s Jack?) Going on from my hypothetical thought, do you think Jack and Irina are soul mates? Which union do you think is most tragic?

I think Syd and Vaughn are soulmates. I think that Vaughn has only broke Syd's trust when it had to do with something that might hurt her or cause her problems, or make her upset. And, he was usually just trying to protect her (even though she hasn't ever really needed protecting). Well, even if Vaughn DOES indeed know about Lauren's Covenant status, he still isn't playing Irina. Irina duped an innocent man, a man who never pretended to be anything other than what he was, a CIA agent who fell in love with a woman named Laura Bristow. If Vaughn knows about Lauren, he married her knowing she was a bad, evil person. And, he married her to get information about the death of his beloved. Which means, if he does know about her, he's sacrificing his own personal happiness in order to keep Sydney safe (or something like that). So, no, Vaughn is not Irina in any case, because Lauren is not an innocent party. And, even though Syd (as Jack) doesn't know what Vaughn is up to, she just believes that he got married and moved on. Which isn't fair, but, she does know how he feels about her. It's just when will she find out. For Vaughn to be Irina, he would have had to marry Sydney under false pretenses or something. Vaughn may be married to Lauren under false pretenses, but it's still a different story altogether. Yes, I think Jack and Irina are soulmates. And even though I'm an S/V shipper all the way, I think J/I union is the most tragic. I mean, this has gone on for approx. thirty years. There are so many layers to that relationship. Jack never moved on from Irina, from what we know. Syd and Vaughn's relationship is tragic, but we know they'll be together again, and besides, with them it has only been a little over two years. Which is tragic in itself, but not as tragic as J/I's thirty year relationship.
 
Azalea said:
Since my answers to the questions aren't really that different than some of the answers I've already read, I'm going to comment on other things. I'm a non-conformist! Mwahahahah!! ^_^

So what’s going on here? The nerves would tend to rule out sleeper, Project Christmas (!), or brainwash, which leaves what? Very little. Extortion, perhaps, but not much else. Do they have something on her father, perhaps? They will have to come up with something that explains her mien as well as her actions.
But what I don't understand is...If it's extortion or blackmail, and it's fairly recent, does that mean it's only commenced after Lauren and Vaughn were married? Since we're going by the discrepancies between her current ineptitude at being a double agent and her seeming guilessness a few months ago, I'm assuming that would have to be the case. So that means, she married Vaughn because she loved him, but after they were married, something occured - some form of blackmail - and she's now forced to work for the Covenant. If that's the way it is, wouldn't she show just a little more emotion at ordering her own husband killed? Sure, she looked a little wistful when she was gazing at the picture of her and Vaughn, but even Irina loved Jack, and she was the master of cool calculations.

What could Lauren possibly care about enough to toss away the life of her own husband? Her father? That's unlikely. And even if she was forced into this, she'd show some emotion. What they seem to be going for is a portrayal of Lauren as a true villainess. Notice how she invited Syd to dinner, knowing there was a possibility Syd would be dead by then? And then tossed off that little "see you next Tuesday" remark (which, BTW, if anyone doesn't know what that stands for, see the quotes section :lol: ). Lauren is having fun with this. She may be awkward about her technique, but she doesn't appear to be tormented or even really concerned.

The only thing I can imagine is that they really are going to be consistent with the "Lauren is Covenant" storyline, and just go from there. J.J. said in an interview last week that they'd planned to have Lauren be Covenant from the beginning, but they had to make the viewers feel like they should try to like her (even though they really couldn't) before the revelation. So, as inconsistent as it seems, maybe we just have to accept it. But it's just not sitting right with me. For a show that has such consistently good writing, I really want this to be satisfactorily explained.
OK, if Lauren has been a Covenant spy since day one, isn't brainwashed or whatever, I'm not sure if they'll ever be able to explain it in a way that will satisfy me.

1) So Mr Abrams felt they had to make us like Lauren? Just what did they do to accomplish that? I wasn't dead set against liking Lauren unlike many fans, and I saw little reason to warm up to her. She started out whiny and remained that way for some time, only helping out a bit after Sydney is beaten before her eyes and about to be labotomized? What's to like?

2) Even more need to explain why she's such a damn lousy spy! Like, for example, why can't she keep a straight face when her plans go wrong (Sydney & Vaughn turn up alive)? She wasn't even responsible for putting them out of the way, just supplying the intel! So it's not even her problem. It's someone else's job, and it's not like she's likely to be found out based on what she supplied. And how come she's so damn nervous if she's been doing this for months or years? If this is the case it's being written wrong or played wrong. Or they have to explain it differently. That's all.

3) By the way, Lauren invited Sydney to dinner after the briefing, before she found out that the Covenant was going to go so far as to kill them (why would she think, "Oh, yes, probably she'll be dead by then"?). When she heard from her handler that he planned to kill them, she was surprised. It's an opportunity to spy on Sydney, that's all.

"Consistently good writing," indeed. I kind of depend on Alias for that, so I have a hard time believing that this is happening. Ecch! I had no problem with them bringing this Lauren character in, but if she's going to make no sense at all, it's going to be the worst thing they've ever done on Alias and I will be tremendously dissappointed!
:blink:
 
Alias24-7-365 said:
I think that Irina isn't really a bad "guy" - that she's made the choices in her life because she had to, not necessarily because she wanted to.  There is a something more going on here, and I think it's something big, something that goes back to when Sloane, Jack, Irina, Bill Vaughn, etc. were all in the CIA together in the 70's - right around the time when Sloane and Irina got Rambaldi fever.
. . . And Irina kills instead of disables, & she time and again deceives and betrays those she loves because--what--she's a good guy? & I wouldn't exactly say she was "in the CIA together" with Jack et al. :lol: (I'm keeping my mind open about her, but there's not much that would justify her silence with Jack.)

Also, Sloane may be trying to do something to hurt Sydney - and Irina knows this and wants him eliminated before he can do anything else to hurt her.
So why not have Jack go through with it?

Since it seems like Sloane played a part in her missing two years, Irina probably feels like Sloane already partially ruined Syd's life.  Also, I think it may have been a test for Jack from Irina.  To see if he'd actually kill Sloane just because Katya said so.
But it would hardly be "just because Katya said so." It would be under threat upon Sydney's life. Coercion of the most severe type for Jack.

Well, even if Vaughn DOES indeed know about Lauren's Covenant status, he still isn't playing Irina.  Irina duped an innocent man, a man who never pretended to be anything other than what he was, a CIA agent who fell in love with a woman named Laura Bristow.  If Vaughn knows about Lauren, he married her knowing she was a bad, evil person.  And, he married her to get information about the death of his beloved.  Which means, if he does know about her, he's sacrificing his own personal happiness in order to keep Sydney safe (or something like that).  So, no, Vaughn is not Irina in any case, because Lauren is not an innocent party.  And, even though Syd (as Jack) doesn't know what Vaughn is up to, she just believes that he got married and moved on.  Which isn't fair, but, she does know how he feels about her.  It's just when will she find out.  For Vaughn to be Irina, he would have had to marry Sydney under false pretenses or something.  Vaughn may be married to Lauren under false pretenses, but it's still a different story altogether. 
Ah, but I didn't ask about Vaughn's treatment of Lauren, but about Vaughn's treatment of Sydney. Given their supposed status as soul mates, is it not a betrayal of the most basic kind for Vaughn to withhold his trust? For him not to share the truth? Especially if the truth has to do with their apparently sacred (they are soul mates, remember) relationship? This trust should go deeper than any commitment to government, should it not? (And it's not like Sydney is untrustworthy or uninvolved . . .) No, I would not say this deceit is anywhere near the level of Irina's, but it's another step on a dangerous road. Sydney has proven herself time and again to be open and worthy of this sort of "ultimate relationship." I have my doubts about Mr Vaughn.
;)
 
verdantheart said:
"Consistently good writing," indeed. I kind of depend on Alias for that, so I have a hard time believing that this is happening. Ecch! I had no problem with them bringing this Lauren character in, but if she's going to make no sense at all, it's going to be the worst thing they've ever done on Alias and I will be tremendously dissappointed!
:blink:
Here's the quote from the J.J. interview. (I'm not sure why it was only posted in the spoilers section...It really doesn't contain spoilers.)

The Jan. 11 episode revealed that Lauren Reed (Melissa George) is working for the enemies of her husband, Michael Vaughn (Michael Vartan), and his former love interest, Sydney Bristow (Jennifer Garner). Abrams said that it was his plan all along to make the character evil, and that the twist was not a reaction to the widespread animosity toward her from the fans. "We knew this was going to happen," he said. "She went into this year hated, and she's still hated as the one who's getting in between [Sydney and Vaughn]. But we tried as much as possible to draw out her storyline so that you believed, 'Oh, I guess I'm supposed to like her.' So when you finally learned that she was evil, it was satisfying." Alias airs Sundays at 9 p.m. ET/PT.

Kind of funny that he would describe it as "satisfying" when so many people are anything but satisfied. Coming from him, the whole thing seems a little simplistic. I'm also worried about another part of the interview where he said some ideas the writers had for upcoming storylines might be "too extreme." I don't want the show to turn into a joke with cartoon villains. They need to round out Lauren's character and give her depth if they're going to pass her off as "evil" (and they should do the same for Sark while they're at it.)

With Irina, her air of mystery is part of what gave her depth, but I don't think Melissa George is going to be able to pull that off. We need a backstory.
 
Azalea said:
Kind of funny that he would describe it as "satisfying" when so many people are anything but satisfied. Coming from him, the whole thing seems a little simplistic.
No kidding! I'm hardly satisfied. This is just the sort of trite and overused and easy-way-out storytelling that i don't expect from them. That's not the way I want Alias to surprise me.
:angry:
 
Why do you think the Covenant is willing to kill Sydney? Do you think they still have Rambaldi DNA and her eggs on ice, or do you think Rambaldi’s DNA was destroyed in the raid?
That would be the only reason I can think of if her whole Julia Thorne exisistance was to get the cube. If they have what they need then why not kill her she is nothing but a threat to their existence.
Why do you think Jack turns to Irina for help rather than Sloane? He has turned to Sloane in the past.
I think Jack has made a few steps close to chumminess than he would like as of late what with Sloane saving his life and his help with Sydney in the past so I'm assuming he's attempting to distance himself at the moment if at all possible.
What do you think Irina’s agenda is? Do you think Katya’s is the same?
I think she is working her dealings with Sloane and vying for position. I think Katya is a Derevko force in her own right like Irina who probably rely's on her sister when necessary and helps in the same right. At the moment I think they are going toe to toe with Sloane which in itself proves they are no slouches since Sloane would have no problem assassanating most anyone that threatened his life.
Do you think the order to assassinate Sloane came from Irina or Katya? What do you think of Irina’s/Katya’s placing a price tag on saving her own daughter/niece?
Irina probably gave Katya the leeway to make her own calls so she probably gave the order (Katya) herself, knowing she would pull it back. As far as placing a price tag on Sydney these are high stakes and I think they look at it as any oportunity not taken is an oportunity squandered or however that saying goes. I Think they mean to make the most out of their oportunities and that's what she did. Never give something for nothing. That's how you build strength. Some say that there are those that will remember a favor but I think in the Derevko case they work from a standpoint of "cash and carry". Get it now, while the gettin's good.
Do you think Katya’s more important agenda was to 1) deliver the message to back off; 2) tell Sloane that they can reach him with whomever they want whenever they want; or 3) drive a wedge between Jack and Sloane
I see it as all of the above . Obviously she wanted to shake Sloane up and have him nervous with regards to the Derevko's and she wanted to make him not trust Jack which she said will present itsself later. And She wanted him to back off, I think is because Irina has something of his which I discussed earlier, but am not sure of. I'm thinking Sloane dealt her a bunch of his assets before the CIA came to get him and Emily was killed. He may want the stuff back. If not this perhaps something else. Could be anything really.
Do you think the case is that Irina is working more closely with Sloane or more closely with Katya--that is, is the message “Sloane, back off of Irina,” or “Sloane, tell Irina to back off [of me]”?
I hope I didn't miss something there but definitely Irina's working with Katya. " Sloane, back off of Irina".
Why do you think Sloane let Jack know that he was tipped off to the assassination attempt
I notice that Sloane let's his feelings of hurt, what I think are genuine feelings, show around Sydney and Jack, as if to let them know how wronged he is feeling. It almost ,as a viewer, makes you feel sorry for him. Why he does it is most probably to show Jack his sorrow at being so woefully hurt once again. Perhaps a little of " it was you fredo " was also in there.
Do you think Irina and Sloane are vying for Jack’s loyalties? (Although Jack’s loyalty is expected to lie steadfastly with Sydney and only tentatively with either of these two.)
I think Irina knows she has Jack's loyalty or atleast enough of it for whatever she needs whenever she needs it and yes Sloane I think is always working the slow burn on Jack. The steady whens the race, ever present Sloane pace, always working an angle on Jack.
Compare Sydney’s policy of honesty with Vaughn (telling him about her interlude with Will for example) with his history of withholding from her. Do you agree that she was right to let him know about this as a way of letting him know she’s moving on?
No, it wasn't right in that she should have but it was right in being Sydney and staying true to herself. I think anyway. She didn't owe Vaughn that because he's married of course, which is becoming a techcnicality really, but it was nice. As far as moving on if she wanted to let him know she was moving on she should have just told him she was moving on and left the Will thing out of it, although I know some will say she could have used that as an excuse. As it was not much got accomplished :rolleyes: and the two are still love struck with Lauren in the middle which will all be worked out at a later date. So far now I say I'll just be patient and be happy that Sydney was honest with Vaughn whether she "deserved" to be or not because it happened and now it's done and Vaughn told her she's the only one and it's done. So we wait.
Do you agree that Vaughn is withholding something (something that he began to explain)? If so, what? Do you think he cares for Lauren? How much?
I don't know for sure what Vaughn's doing but I think what ever he ever felt for Lauren has diminished from sheer force of being compared to Sydney everyday. What's left can't be that remarkable.
In a related question, do you really think that Lauren has been a Covenant spy all along? If so, how do you explain her nerves and incompetence? Do you think she cares for Vaughn?
I'm trying to stay away from the Lauren questions because I can't really get a grip on it but I'd say she had to just turn. She was good when she saved Sydney at the NSA building. She wasn't friends with Sark in the car. She wasn't super nervous back then. Now she's killing people and acting horribly nervous. I guess she just turned or else was just hiding real good. Whether she cares for Vaughn is immaterial. If you get close to someone sure you're gonna care for them. Depending on what country she's from, she may despise him just for being an American. I think it could go either way but for sure she has the capacity to kill him.
Do you think that Sydney and Vaughn are, indeed, soul mates? If so, how do you account for Vaughn’s tendency to break trust with Sydney? (To really put an edge on the point, let me tease you with this: Is he playing Irina to Sydney’s Jack?) Going on from my hypothetical thought, do you think Jack and Irina are soul mates? Which union do you think is most tragic?
I don't think I really believe in soul mates.Vaughn and Sydney are young and their romance somehow doesn't grab me tragically the way Jack and Irina's does. Jack and Irina have real history and have been through so much and yet you sense that they still want to be together through all that. That makes me want to cry. It makes me think of real love when you think of the things that there are to overcome in that relationship and then to still want each other. Perhaps it's not really love: just Psycosis
 
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