Season 4 It's unsettling, isn't it?

V

verdantheart

Guest
Our “Mirage” (4.18) begins in Vienna as the team (Sydney, Vaughn, and Dixon) close in on the hydrosek. Dixon, posing as Halsey, awaits delivery with Kradic. Meanwhile, Sloane wonders why Jack hasn't checked in with his assignment—the method of transport back to LA. In Vienna, Elena's associate with the glasses places a glass containing an explosive charge on Sydney's tray. She spots it, warns Vaughn, and tosses it aside in plenty of time to tangle with Glasses, preventing him from making off with the hydrosek. Dixon pulls his gun and goes for the hydrosek along with Kradic. Kradic grabs the case, but is chased down by Dixon and Vaughn. He threatens the water supply, but after pretending to relax, Dixon shoots him.

Glasses, having escaped Sydney's pursuit, reports back to an upset Elena. Nadia walks in and insists Sophia (Elena) stay at her and Sydney's house despite her protestations that she should move to a hotel.

Back in LA, Sydney worries that her father hasn't been seen for two days. She and Vaughn go to his house—which Sydney has never seen. They easily find a journal containing medical notations, unmarked pill bottles, and medical waste including hypodermic needles among the Spartan furnishings.

At APO, Nadia approaches Marshall, who is eagerly looking forward to analyzing the hydrosek. She gives him a sketch based on Sydney's description. Elena, listening in with Glasses is irritated that he allowed Sydney to get a look at him.

Jack visits Dr Liddell, who tells him about Dr Fleming's discovery of penicillin and goes on to describe his own discovery of an alkylating agent that seemed to assist some irradiated rats—with the unfortunate side-effect of an 84% mortality rate. He provides Jack with a prescription of sorts.

As Marshall works on an algorithm for searching databases for the possible people based on the sketch Nadia brought him, Nadia receives a call from Sophia. She invites Nadia, Sydney and their “boyfriends” to dinner as a thankyou for their generosity.

Jack meets with a contact, Anthony, who gives him the alkylating agent. He tells Jack to give the guy he is torturing only a few cc's at a time or he's likely to lose him.

Sydney approaches Marshall for a lead on her father and realizes that Marshall knows something about what happened. Marshall shows her his evidence and tells her that he pulled the fuel rods. He goes on to tell her that he researched any possible treatment and came up empty. Sydney runs to Sloane to begin an official search.

A briefing is called. There is no record of Jack having sought medical treatment—doctors would have been required to make special note of a condition such as Jack's. Further, at this point it would be likely that Jack's mental faculties would be impaired, so they have to be concerned about the possibility that Jack is being used.

Jack, meanwhile, approaches Dr Liddell's office, where he is prepped for the procedure. Marshall detects an ATM hit and ties into traffic surveillance to track the location of Jack's car. Sydney and Vaughn follow and find that Dr Liddell's office is not an office at all, but an abandoned building. They find Jack injecting himself with the lethal chemical.

Jack, however, mentions the name Liddell, which provides APO with a lead. Atticus Liddell in fact exists. He worked with survivors following a mysterious nuclear accident in the USSR, but was accused of being a spy (which he was). Jack extracted and hid him, but only he and his handler (now dead) knew his location.

Sydney sends Nadia off to Sophia's dinner while she stays with her father. She introduces Weiss, who says he “loves her already.” Sophia grabs both their bags, which she puts in the bedroom, where Glasses is waiting. As they eat, Nadia goes to the bedroom to answer her phone—but Weiss doesn't notice as Sophia holds her gun in her bag.

At APO, Jack awakes and mistakes Sydney for Laura. Sloane comments that Jack is too far gone to tell them where Liddell is. Sydney suggests hypnosis and then mentions that Jack called her Laura. Sloane notes that he called her Laura rather than Irina and suggests that they try placing Jack back in 1981, when Liddell was relocated.

As Sydney gets ready for the operation, Vaughn tries to settle her nerves. Sydney remarks that she just can't remember what her parents were like together, but Vaughn reminds her to trust her training. Sydney moves into the set as the finishing touches are put on it and Sloane is rearranging the knickknacks. Sloane mentions that Irina used to call Jack “Sweetheart.”

They wheel Jack in on a gurney, place him on the couch, and wake him up to the sound of vintage news. Jack switches it off. Sydney closes the door and calls Jack's name. Jack calls her Sydney, but Sydney says, “She's upstairs, isn't she?” and moves on. She mentioned that Arvin Sloane invited them to dinner, which seems to draw him in. He responds that they don't have to go—he knows she just puts up with him for his sake. Vaughn calls, pretending to be Jack's handler, with the call about Liddell. Jack hesitates. They send in the girl who is pretending to be Sydney, who starts playing piano. Jack finishes the call in code.

He tells Sydney (as Laura) that it's bad news from Grady. He needs to make a doctor disappear—that it's low risk, and cites the location, Finland. He's upset because it means he'll miss Sydney's birthday again. All his memories of his own father are of him leaving and he doesn't want Sydney to have the same experience. He says he's planning on leaving the agency. As he goes to play the piano with little “Sydney,” he's sedated.

Sydney heads to Helsinki, where she catches up with the real Dr Liddell.

Meanwhile, Marshall chases down Nadia and Weiss, anxious to know why in the world they would transfer the hydrosek to a low-security facility off-site. They protest that they did no such thing and hasten to retrieve it—but it's too late Elena and Glasses have gotten there first. But Elena has cleaned up her mess, leaving Glasses behind, dead.

Sydney arrives back at APO with Dr Liddell, where Sloane greets them. He's anxious to meet his patient. Jack awakes and asks, “Am I cured?” Dr Liddell says, “Not yet, but I'm here to make you better.”


Analysis . . .

I'll be skipping many observations regarding Jack so that I can put them into my Spy dad column for this week. I hope that you will make a point to take a look at that one this time because I think some of the points are rather interesting.

Let's deal with Nadia's side of the family first, shall we? Elena wants the hydrosek and has to deal with the problem that her associate, Mr Glasses has exposed himself. Once he has helped her get the hydrosek, however, she has no problem disposing of him.

However, this hyrosec better be important because its exposure should tip APO off that there is a security breach—after all, Glasses moved the hydrosek using their authorization. It might take a while to trace it down to “Sophia,” but the fact is that the breach itself is blatant and undeniable now. She could have listened in and gleaned mounds of information for months without significant dectection, but this lets them know they have to look for the breach. If they find the transmitter, it will be very difficult for her to explain how she is innocent when her gift is the problem. Can Elena make it disappear or exchange it for an innocuous bauble before APO discovers it? Or is she planning to disappear? It's a lot to risk, so that hydrosek better be worth a lot.

Sydney becomes concerned when her father, who has been behaving a little strangely lately, doesn't show up at work for a couple of days. She rounds up Vaughn and goes hunting. It turns out that she's never been to her father's apartment. Why aren't we surprised by this? Vaughn comments that he pictured Sydney's father living in a bunker. However, they found plain, simple surroundings—appropriate for a man who spends most of his time at the office or away on business. They did find evidence that Jack is a very sick man.

Sydney uses this as her lead and approaches Marshall. Since she came to him, he's relieved to find himself no longer bound by his promise to Jack and tells him the truth of Jack's sacrifice. Marshall, of course, has been doing his own research into possible treatments (you didn't think he'd simply sit and do nothing, did you?), and came up empty. Now, at least, everyone at APO can come together on the same page and know what they're dealing with. Jack, probably delusional is by himself—or possibly at the mercy of an opportunist.

With APO's help, Sydney and Vaughn locate Jack and manage to collect him just as he's self-administering a probably fatal dose of alkylating agent. But they manage to get the name Liddell. Jack has provided the name of perhaps the only man in the world who can help him. But Jack is the only man who has a lead on where Liddell is—because Jack is the one who made Liddell disappear many years ago.

But getting to that information with Jack in his delusional state turns out to be a difficult task for Sydney, who must become her own mother to transport her father back to 1981, when Liddell was relocated. Sydney doesn't remember what her parents were like together. She worries that she can't do it right—but Vaughn reminds her that this is the reason she has training. Jack will give her the cues she needs to pull through it.

Sydney goes into it to learn Liddell's location, but she learns a great deal more. She learns that Jack was very open with Laura about his work. He had told her before that Irina had known that he worked for the CIA and that he regretted being so open with her, but he did not reveal how very much more open with her than he should have been he actually was. He revealed where he was taking Liddell, for example. Yet, if we go back to season 3, we remember Katya's statement that indicates that Jack knew what Laura was well before this time. Given this scene, if this is the case, their bargain must have been very interesting indeed. Perhaps that was a continuity error after all and must be thrown out (see Random Thoughts).

Jack reveals that Irina privately expressed a dislike for Arvin Sloane. Is this perhaps because she was somehow forced into interacting with him in ways she wouldn't necessarily choose to in order to fulfill her mission? Or is it because she simply doesn't care for the man. In any case, Mr Sloane seemed somewhat dismayed by this particular tidbit.

Jack, who up until now has never mentioned his own parents, remembers his father by his absence. He doesn't want Sydney to remember him in the same way. Yet, sadly, this is just how she did remember him for quite some time. This must have been a choice on Jack's part. Obviously something connected with Irina's betrayal or it's circumstances changed his mind, but what?

To achieve a greater closeness with his family, Jack tells “Laura” that he plans to resign. But how much can we read into this statement? Is this something that he really proposed to Laura those years ago, thus precipitating her extraction, or is it simply something that he now wishes he had considered? After all, there are many factors that could have contributed to Irina's actions, including the KGB's desire to gain control of the Passenger. Meanwhile, I have long noted that the investigation of Jack Bristow by KGB plant in FBI counterintelligence, Caulder, indicates that the process of setting him up to take the fall for Irina's killings had been underway for some time. Jack already had an expiration date, it was just a matter of what that date was.

Does it really matter whether he really said those things then or not? He feels them now, and that is what is important to Sydney. For once, she can really see how very important she is to her father—not when it's just a matter of his throwing his life away in exchange for hers, but when it's a matter of changing his life forever to make her life better. She knows that her mother somehow betrayed her father, that she disappeared and abandoned them—that she allowed them to believe her dead for twenty years—but she doesn't know exactly how or why this changed things between Jack and her (Sydney)—and she still doesn't. What she does know is how much her father loved her mother—and her. And that is enough.


Random thoughts . . .

Yes, I must admit, the deluge of Sweetheart-ing almost had me gagging . . . can't they think of something else, anything else, for somebody? I know Jack isn't the most imaginative man when his mind strays outside engineering, game theory, and espionage, but, I mean, really . . . Irina . . . ? (I almost called this column “Let me call you Sweetheart,” but I didn't want to make myself sick . . .)

Dixon saves the day with a well-timed shot. Who would you rather see in the field, Vaughn or Dixon? Personally, I want Dixon with me.

OK, how oblivious was Weiss, not noticing Sophia holding that gun in her purse? Sheesh.

Hee hee, our untrustworthy Dr Liddell was untrustworthy, but because he was a delusion, not because he was a spy. But he was a very realistic delusion—see the upcoming Spy dad column for more . . . hopefully before Wednesday!

Hm, Dr Liddell did this research and made progress. Even though he had to go into hiding, did his research have to disappear with him? I'm sorry, but this just doesn't make sense. Something this important and useful would have at least made it into secret CIA files somewhere.

Katya's statement: continuity error or important fact? We must know! That Jack would simply tell her what was going on with Liddell indicates either they committed a really horrible continuity error (might I suggest looping next time?) or Jack had reason to believe he had some really good bargain going with Laura/Irina. Right now (I'm sorry to say) I'm leaning back toward continuity error. Yech. Another gripe to throw into the season 3 barrel. (But, frankly, this way it works out much more cleanly.) Don't you guys keep a timeline?!


Discuss . . .

Katya's during-the-marriage date for Jack's finding out that “Laura” was a KGB spy: continuity error or factoid? You make the call.

Should Weiss have noticed that Sophia was hinky? Why or why not?

Were you surprised that Elena/Sophia used Nadia/Weiss's authorization to move the hydrosek, thereby causing an obvious security breach? Why do you think this hydrosek is worth the risk?

(Let's discount Katya and assume Jack was clueless.) It seems Jack took the same open approach with Laura that Sydney wanted to take with Danny. Dixon disagreed and kept his secret from Diane, which got him into trouble when he found out about SD-6 and he confessed to her. Which policy is best and why—which would you take and how far would you take it? For example, it's one thing for a wife to know that you work for the CIA, another for her to know you're hiding a doctor in Finland.

Would you care to speculate on the reasons why Irina did not care for Arvin Sloane? Guilt? The fact that she had to do things with him that she preferred not to? Or just dislike?

Would you care to speculate on how Jack came to do just what he didn't want to—become estranged from the one person he cared for the most, Sydney?

Do you think that Jack really planned on resigning, or is that something that he now wishes he had done? Why?


Next:
hydrosek (or something) threatens world panic and disaster of genocidal proportions . . .



Modifications:

1. (2005/5/18) Spelling correction.
 
Yeah!
Katya's during-the-marriage date for Jack's finding out that “Laura” was a KGB spy: continuity error or factoid? You make the call.
- error
Should Weiss have noticed that Sophia was hinky? Why or why not?
He should have, but he is more trusting than let's say - Jack.
Were you surprised that Elena/Sophia used Nadia/Weiss's authorization to move the hydrosec, thereby causing an obvious security breach? Why do you think this hydrosec is worth the risk?
The hydrosec was totally worth the risk for a villian - why can't Irina's sisters have more patience?!?!
(Let's discount Katya and assume Jack was clueless.) It seems Jack took the same open approach with Laura that Sydney wanted to take with Danny. Dixon disagreed and kept his secret from Diane, which got him into trouble when he found out about SD-6 and he confessed to her. Which policy is best and why—which would you take and how far would you take it? For example, it's one thing for a wife to know that you work for the CIA, another for her to know you're hiding a doctor in Finland.
I think it is an important in into Jack's character - implying that to him closiness/ trust was more important than security - which has changed, but by his communications with his delusional doctor, it is unclear how much that has changed in his heart.
Would you care to speculate on the reasons why Irina did not care for Arvin Sloane? Guilt? The fact that she had to do things with him that she preferred not to? Or just dislike?
I'd go with the middle option personally.
Would you care to speculate on how Jack came to do just what he didn't want to—become estranged from the one person he cared for the most, Sydney?
Perhaps it was out of his control - maybe he thought he was doing it to protect her, or maybe he was forced to distance himself.
Do you think that Jack really planned on resigning, or is that something that he now wishes he had done? Why?
Delusions like memory change, I'd bet it is something he wishs he'd done.
 
V – I have to admit that after seeing this episode (which I think might be one of my favourites) I was dying to see your Spy Dad and Spy Family columns! Obviously there was such food for thought in this episode, and I knew you would come up with interesting twists on the whole thing – such as question #1! :lol:

Katya's during-the-marriage date for Jack's finding out that “Laura” was a KGB spy: continuity error or factoid? You make the call.

So many possibilities really… I don’t suppose you can refresh our memories with Katya’s exact words? :thinking: I mean, did Jack know she was a spy, but think she was a double agent, and the plan they had was actually to feed the KGB false intel? I still can’t see him being so unguarded with someone he knew was sent in and trained by the KGB… Although he was obviously so in love with her that she could easily have convinced him that she had completely fallen for him and moved over to the side of light and goodness… gah! :blink: I keep flip-flopping on this one…

Should Weiss have noticed that Sophia was hinky? Why or why not?

(hinky?? :confused: ?) I think he really should have at least had an inkling that something was odd. I mean I am all for Weiss providing some comic relief and I love his goofiness, but he is a spy for heaven’s sake. Even if Nadia hasn’t twigged, she has the excuse of being way too close to Sophia to have any warning bells ring. But Weiss should at least be concerned that this strange woman from Nadia’s past has shown up out of nowhere, and show some of the hesitation displayed by Sloane, even if it is not as strong or initially hostile. I thought the fact that he not only had no flags go up, but was even sillier than usual made him look a little incompetent (but maybe he is – and that is why he is almost never in the field..)

Were you surprised that Elena/Sophia used Nadia/Weiss's authorization to move the hydrosec, thereby causing an obvious security breach? Why do you think this hydrosec is worth the risk?

Absolutely! Like you said so well, she could have been using that to gain all kinds of information. My only conclusion (at the moment anyway!) is that she possibly has other means of accessing CIA/APO information and/or that her need for the hydrosec is tied in with her surfacing at this moment in time – which is also riskier for her. This is obviously “the time” for these moves to be made and she will do what she has to.

Would you care to speculate on the reasons why Irina did not care for Arvin Sloane? Guilt? The fact that she had to do things with him that she preferred not to? Or just dislike?

This seems pretty consistent, doesn’t it? Certainly in the time we saw her Irina did not hide her distaste for Sloane – which is why the knowledge of her ‘affair’ with Sloane was so surprising. Perhaps Sloane’s reaction to Jack’s words in the re-enactment scene were due to the fact that he had chalked up her dislike to subsequent events, and was surprised to learn that even back then he had no time for him.

Plus who knows what went on or what she had told him during their ‘affair”.

That is all I have time for now! Perhaps more later!

Looking forward to the Spy Dad column! :woot:
 
I’m actually passing though and have time to comment, strange for me latelly.

:D Wonderful column as normal :D

Sweetheart bugs? ;)

Dixion is so much better in the field and working with Sydney. Vaughn works best when he is on comms.

Katya's during-the-marriage date for Jack's finding out that “Laura” was a KGB spy: continuity error or factoid? You make the call.

I don’t recall the exact wording but at the time I speculated that the finding out was not complete finding out. I speculated that Jack detected something fishy that Irina managed to cover up and Jack bought the cover up then but of course latter hates himself for being so stupid. On the other hand continuity error is possible or the information Katya was told was deliberately false and Jack just did not correct her.

Should Weiss have noticed that Sophia was hinky? Why or why not?

Weiss was a home I can see spy skills being something that for many has to be something you mentally turn on and that you let your guard drop when you think your not on duty. This makes Weiss a less than great spy but not inconsistent with his portrayal before. To me it’s the difference between natural instincts and learned instincts, if you only have the second you can be good at the job but will have limitations compared to someone born with the traits.

Were you surprised that Elena/Sophia used Nadia/Weiss's authorization to move the hydrosec, thereby causing an obvious security breach? Why do you think this hydrosec is worth the risk?

If it can kill millions it’s worth the risk.

(Let's discount Katya and assume Jack was clueless.) It seems Jack took the same open approach with Laura that Sydney wanted to take with Danny. Dixon disagreed and kept his secret from Diane, which got him into trouble when he found out about SD-6 and he confessed to her. Which policy is best and why—which would you take and how far would you take it? For example, it's one thing for a wife to know that you work for the CIA, another for her to know you're hiding a doctor in Finland.

Probably best to keep things secret. I know the bosses don’t want spies telling family as that adds additional people who can be compromised or blab.

Would you care to speculate on the reasons why Irina did not care for Arvin Sloane? Guilt? The fact that she had to do things with him that she preferred not to? Or just dislike?

Maybe all of things listed. I can easly see sleeping with Sloane being by KGB orders to do so and Irina having no choice in the matter.

Would you care to speculate on how Jack came to do just what he didn't want to—become estranged from the one person he cared for the most, Sydney?

The shock of the betrayal and the fact that Sydney did remind him of her mother. Plus just like physical abuse it is common that the abusee as a kid will follow the same pattern as an adult. This just triggered something that was already happening as Jack confessed with his desire to quit and change the pattern.

Do you think that Jack really planned on resigning, or is that something that he now wishes he had done? Why? Maybe. Unsure of this.
 
you had lots of stuff to notice this week verdy :smiley: can't wait for spy daddy column ^_^

Katya's during-the-marriage date for Jack's finding out that “Laura” was a KGB spy: continuity error or factoid? You make the call. pfft probably error.

Should Weiss have noticed that Sophia was hinky? Why or why not? not he was too busy eating and we all know he likes his food :eat:

Were you surprised that Elena/Sophia used Nadia/Weiss's authorization to move the hydrosec, thereby causing an obvious security breach? Why do you think this hydrosec is worth the risk? yes I am wondering what all the fuss is about with this hydrosec - i mean the woman has been watching syd and nadia for years and years - surely not about this thing - must be rambaldi and that surely means the hydrosec is a rambaldi goodie too (??)

(Let's discount Katya and assume Jack was clueless.) It seems Jack took the same open approach with Laura that Sydney wanted to take with Danny. Dixon disagreed and kept his secret from Diane, which got him into trouble when he found out about SD-6 and he confessed to her. Which policy is best and why—which would you take and how far would you take it? For example, it's one thing for a wife to know that you work for the CIA, another for her to know you're hiding a doctor in Finland. tough question - after watching Alias I would vote for neither of the above - since danny and diane are dead anyway. so it seems the only way to allow myhubby to survive would be tell him everything but first get him to sign up for foreign intelligence! :Ph34r: :lol: nah but really i suck at keeping secrets.

Would you care to speculate on the reasons why Irina did not care for Arvin Sloane? Guilt? The fact that she had to do things with him that she preferred not to? Or just dislike? :lol: not really but I thought this was hilarious!!!!

Would you care to speculate on how Jack came to do just what he didn't want to—become estranged from the one person he cared for the most, Sydney? aww this makes me sad. :( i believe jack just became a broken man after the betrayel by irina and it made him so focused in his work to bring down badfdies lilke her that he just got lost in his work and his relationship with syd suffered. tragic really. i also think that perhaps after the betrayel he was scared to be close to people again - including syd - since she might have been her mothers daughter.

Do you think that Jack really planned on resigning, or is that something that he now wishes he had done? Why? no idea but i sure do hope we find out someday :smiley:


oh and sweetheart!! i know!!! surely they could have found something better!!! i am trying to remember if she called him sweetheart during seaosn 2 at all or syd for that matter but i can't remember!
 
Continuity error or factoid?
I'll have to watch the episode in question and get my 'facts' straight before making a judgement call. I hope it's not a continuity error for the sake of the show.

Should Weiss have noticed that Sophia was hinky? Why or why not?
Should being the operative word here. When APO was formed, Weiss was not chosen as part of the team. He was only made a member when Syd and Vaughn were exposed as black ops, not because of his skills. Weiss is a good spy, but not good enough to hang with the crew. That, and Nadia trusts Sophia so much that Weiss thinks nothing of it.

Were you surprised that Elena/Sophia used Nadia/Weiss's authorization to move the hydrosec, thereby causing an obvious security breach? Why do you think this hydrosec is worth the risk?
My opinion: the hydrosec is important in the construction of the device with the Circumference. The spinning red ball is just a big ball of water.
Well, either that or a really big distraction to divert APO's eyes from the 'real' plan.

Which policy is best and why—which would you take and how far would you take it? For example, it's one thing for a wife to know that you work for the CIA, another for her to know you're hiding a doctor in Finland.
I personally don't know if I could keep a secret like that, especially for that long, from a loved one. I'd have to let them know if I cared for them that much. Though the threat that they would be killed if they knew would keep me from doing so.

Would you care to speculate on the reasons why Irina did not care for Arvin Sloane? Guilt? The fact that she had to do things with him that she preferred not to? Or just dislike?
Well, if she had an affair with Sloane, then it's a cover story. You act to hate the person so the person you're devoted to doesn't garner any suspicions.

Would you care to speculate on how Jack came to do just what he didn't want to—become estranged from the one person he cared for the most, Sydney?
Assume he loved his wife, told her he was going to quit, then she died. He has no alternatives to his income; he's lost his true love; he's lost. He dives into his work to forget the pain and in the process continues to ostracize himself from his daughter. He wanted to quit so he could be near Sydney and instead cannot quit because he's lost.

Do you think that Jack really planned on resigning, or is that something that he now wishes he had done? Why?
See above reponse. I believe that he wanted to. Being in his poor state of mind I think that's what he wanted to do.

As a couple of related points dealing with this episode and prior ones:

I like the point that Liddell in Jack's mind was acting as his conscience: tell Syd the truth before you die/kill yourself. I just wonder if part of Jack's mind knew he was killing himself with the alkylating agent, especially since Anthony 'warned' him to be cautious with the stuff since it would kill in any decent sized dose.

I'll buy the whole 'they need to find Liddell' point. If they had access to his research, it's 20+ years old and likely not sufficient enough to do anything to save Jack.

Again, about Liddell, tangentally at least with the genetic manipulation front. Didn't the contact for Sloane in Another Mister Sloane believe that Sloane was using Omnifam for genetic manipluation purposes? Is bringing in Liddell, a person who disappeared, a bad move? Granted, no one else at APO would know this point, but it's something to consider, if it fits somehow in the Sloane endgame.

What's up with 1981? It's brought up this episode, and again in Bill's journal (as the year the entries stopped). Is there something else that happens that year we don't know about? [Yes, I know that Roberts said the entire thing was faked, but I think some of it is real. Sloane and Jack believed there was an unaccounted Bill journal, whatever that means.]
 
Great column V ... (y)

I am waiting on the Spy Dad column ... and I am sure you got the answer to something thats bugging me so far ... and nope, I haven't stumble upon it in this one ... ;)
 
Thanks for the column verdantheart and looking forward to the Spydaddie one. I might be responding there also since this was such a Jackcentric episode.

Katya's during-the-marriage date for Jack's finding out that “Laura” was a KGB spy: continuity error or factoid? You make the call.

Don't know. I think we'll have to wait and see how the remaining episodes play out on this. However, when Jack was talking to Vaughn about Lauren being a double in Season 3, didn't he say that he'd had suspicions about Laura but had allowed himself to be persuaded by her that everything was OK?

Should Weiss have noticed that Sophia was hinky? Why or why not?

If it had been Jack or Sloane, I'd have said yes but Weiss (and all the younger generation) are more trusting. Weiss knew Sophia's history with Nadia and her acceptance by Sydney and presumably by APO, he was, therefore, in off duty mode. Because he wasn't expecting her to be involved in dirty dealing, he didn't notice anything wrong.

Were you surprised that Elena/Sophia used Nadia/Weiss's authorization to move the hydrosec, thereby causing an obvious security breach? Why do you think this hydrosec is worth the risk?

I wasn't suprised that they used it, after all the hydrasec seems very important to them. I was suprised at how easily they were able to get the authorisation. I work for the police and while we can take non-networked laptops home without too much trouble, authorisation to take a networked laptop home is as rare as gold dust and even then, there are parts of the network you're blocked from using.

I don't know why the hydrosec is that important. I know Marshall thinks it's a very powerful weapon, but is it any more so by itself than any of the other stuff APO have been recovering this year? The only thing I can think of is that it's somehow Rambaldi related. Hydrosec interacts with water, the Circumference holds water. Both are fatal. Could hydrosec somehow be used to make the Circumference an even more powerful weapon?

(Let's discount Katya and assume Jack was clueless.) It seems Jack took the same open approach with Laura that Sydney wanted to take with Danny. Dixon disagreed and kept his secret from Diane, which got him into trouble when he found out about SD-6 and he confessed to her. Which policy is best and why—which would you take and how far would you take it? For example, it's one thing for a wife to know that you work for the CIA, another for her to know you're hiding a doctor in Finland.

I think it depends on the circumstances. In the case of Syd and Dixon they knew that SD6's policy was to kill unauthorised personnel (including spouses and fiancee's) who knew of its existance. Telling someone what you do in this instance is self indulgent. The other person is not a professional and there is always a danger that they will get drunk, a la Danny, and spill everything over an unsecured phone line or suffer some emotional trauma and start screaming about their partner's secret life in public. We all know how this ended, Syd came back to find Danny's dead body while, although, the Dixon's marriage went through a bad patch, they eventually reconciled.

In the case of Jack and "Laura", I presume that Jack was openly CIA at the time so I think it was OK for him to tell her what he did but I think he was ill-advised to tell her in the detail he did (if he actually did and it wasn't his 2005 sub-conscious at work here trying to help him find the man capable for saving him). Even if "Laura" had been security cleared to marry a CIA officer, there must always have been a danger that she could be threatened or blackmailed or just conned into revealing state secrets.

Would you care to speculate on the reasons why Irina did not care for Arvin Sloane? Guilt? The fact that she had to do things with him that she preferred not to? Or just dislike?

From Jack's comment, it appeared that "Laura's" dislike of Arvin was quite long standing. If we assume this wasn't some belief arising from his 2005 sub-conscious trying to blank out the possibility of an affair between them; then the affair was of longer standing than I, for one, would like to think. I, therefore, tend to go with option 3.

Would you care to speculate on how Jack came to do just what he didn't want to—become estranged from the one person he cared for the most, Sydney?

I feel the estrangement was on Sydney's side, not Jack's. Jack could probably have coped with "Laura's" death but subsequently finding out that she was a long term spy and assassin knocked him for six. She had not only betrayed his love and trust in a very significant way but she had murdered his friends and colleagues. That's a lot to have to deal with. According to Season 1 he was imprisoned for several months and hit the bottle hard after his release. When he got himself sorted a lot of time must have passed, particularly from the perspective of a 5/6 year old girl.

I can see that Sydney must have felt herself abandoned, first her mother dies and then her father disappears and none of the adults in her life will tell her why. I can see their first meeting after his release being quite painful for him. She'd be asking where he's been and he's faced with a dilemma - does he tell her the truth -that her mother was a spy and murderer, or a lie and what lie could possibly justify the fact he'd left her alone during such an emotional time?

At the end of the day, he decided to let her keep her illusions about her mother. This means that he cast himself as a cold hearted unfeeling father, Sydney accepted that and the rest, as they say, is history.

Do you think that Jack really planned on resigning, or is that something that he now wishes he had done? Why?

I don't honestly know. It's difficult to see our Jack as anything other than the consummate professional he now is but his conversations with Irina in Season 2 indicate that there was once a kinder, gentler Jack, as does his interactions with "Laura" and "Syd" in this ep. Maybe, he was considering it but, as I've said earlier in my reply and as your question implies, there may have been "bleed through" from the present into his hallucination.
 
Rinda said:
So many possibilities really…  I don’t suppose you can refresh our memories with Katya’s exact words? 
[post="1333378"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]​
Well, I don't have a transcript for you, but my column says "Katya counters with a firm dig to the heart and ego by commenting on the fact that Irina managed to deceive Jack for five years of marriage before he discovered who she was." They were married for 10 years before her "death."

jems said:
since she might have been her mothers daughter.
[post="1333406"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]​
I really don't believe Jack ever believed that of "the promise of his own redemption"--at least, not that she would become a treacherous evil person!

Alias_Gay said:
I am waiting on the Spy Dad column ... and I am sure you got the answer to something thats bugging me so far ... and nope, I haven't stumble upon it in this one ... ;)
[post="1333839"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]​
Well, I hope so . . . but I do miss things . . . :thinking:

Sloane Ranger said:
Could hydrosec somehow be used to make the Circumference an even more powerful weapon?
They keep describing the Circumference as "a battery." Is it a weapon? Or could it be used to power a weapon? A battery of such power could be used for tremendous good. What exactly makes it so very dangerous? I know that Nightingale wasn't exactly friendly and Sloane used a piece of the prototype to ill effect (and of course there was the deadly virus in the water--but did that really have to be there?)--they really haven't spilt on its ultimate purpose. Is it the power plant for some mega-weapon . . . or what?

According to Season 1 he was imprisoned for several months and hit the bottle hard after his release. When he got himself sorted a lot of time must have passed, particularly from the perspective of a 5/6 year old girl.
[post="1334194"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]​
Season 3 revises this to tell us that Jack was not really imprisoned but was out with Brill and team on the hunt . . . but there's something very strange about season 3 and I'm not sure whether the new "facts" revealed during this season can be taken into account, or whether they should be simply thrown out. Did someone hit a reset button? Annoying. But, then, in many ways, season 3 was annoying.
 
Season 3 revises this to tell us that Jack was not really imprisoned but was out with Brill and team on the hunt . . . but there's something very strange about season 3 and I'm not sure whether the new "facts" revealed during this season can be taken into account, or whether they should be simply thrown out. Did someone hit a reset button? Annoying. But, then, in many ways, season 3 was annoying.
When was this revealed in S3? I thought that Jack was in solitary for 6 mths, and I didn't hear anything that said otherwise. Which episode was this in?
 
filmlover said:
When was this revealed in S3?  I thought that Jack was in solitary for 6 mths, and I didn't hear anything that said otherwise.  Which episode was this in?
[post="1334444"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]​
Oh, man, I don't remember exactly, but when I find time, I'll try to track it down for you. I'm sure I didn't imagine it, it certainly was mentioned or implied.
 
Hm, going back over it, it looks like you're right, it was only implied. I'm probably only remembering the ABC write-up which had that as part of the contents of the SAB-47 document.

However, you'll remember that at the conclusion of season 3 they had Jack drone on and on about how he should have killed Irina when he had the chance (of all illogical statements). And when did he have the chance, pray tell? Are they referring to the Madagascar incident? Which would have led to Sydney hating him forever had he succeeded? I think not. Well, he didn't have a lot of chances later on that Sydney would forgive him for, did he? Well, that leaves earlier--which doesn't leave a very big window, y'see.* He has all of her escape time--and she ended up "dead" at the end of that, anyway, so . . . what's the complaint here? Unless he wasn't in prison and was out chasing her instead, y'see (and then she faked her death more convincingly later on). That's what I mean by strongly implied. And add in "continuity glitch" or history rewrite or whatever they were doing with the 5-year plan that Katya brought up to reinforce this possibility (because there's less reason to put Jack in prison) . . . blech . . . decide what you want to do, boys. <_<

* It's not like he would have wanted to do it earlier than that even had he known.
 
So excited for the columns this week....I just knew there would be a Spydad one too..just so much good stuff in this episode! :smiley:

Katya's during-the-marriage date for Jack's finding out that “Laura” was a KGB spy: continuity error or factoid? You make the call.

Error! -_- Unfortunately V, I do not think the writers pay as close attention to details as you do. I think that we may run across some more incontinuities as the show progresses. :(

Should Weiss have noticed that Sophia was hinky? Why or why not?

Totally...personally that was the most annoying scene of the whole episode to me! To the viewer it was completely obvious and usually in Alias the spies all have this keen sense of discerning something amiss. He was beyond oblivious... :rolleyes:

Were you surprised that Elena/Sophia used Nadia/Weiss's authorization to move the hydrosec, thereby causing an obvious security breach? Why do you think this hydrosec is worth the risk?

I totally was surprised by this during the episode...I mean really if they don't connect the dots after this, well, that would just be bad writing! ^_^ Anyway, Elena's endgame has to come out sooner or later, so I guess attaining this is worth the exposure, even if it is more premature than she wanted. Based on the title of an upcoming episode...The Flood...and hydrosec being a water bio weapon, it stands to reason that it would be likely to be huge element of her endgame.

(Let's discount Katya and assume Jack was clueless.) It seems Jack took the same open approach with Laura that Sydney wanted to take with Danny. Dixon disagreed and kept his secret from Diane, which got him into trouble when he found out about SD-6 and he confessed to her. Which policy is best and why—which would you take and how far would you take it? For example, it's one thing for a wife to know that you work for the CIA, another for her to know you're hiding a doctor in Finland.

I would never want to be married with a secret life. How could you ever truly have intimacy with a person who didn't know you. Just like Syd and her friends...it was always so hard for her to lie to them...how much harder a spouse? I think Jack had always been so lonely and isolated that he wanted a woman he could share EVERYTHING with. Obviously Irina was a poor choice, but I don't think the desire is wrong. Everyone wants someone they can be completely transparent and honest with in their life.

Would you care to speculate on the reasons why Irina did not care for Arvin Sloane? Guilt? The fact that she had to do things with him that she preferred not to? Or just dislike?

All of the above! I think she had true feelings for Jack and was repelled by Sloane. So b/c she actually fancied Jack, sleeping with Sloane was just another betrayal that, I believe, she would have preferred to avoid. Adding to that, Sloane is/was a obsessive, arrogant, egomaniac and she had to further that arrogance by letting him think she was attracted to him and worth her time....yuck!!
Would you care to speculate on how Jack came to do just what he didn't want to—become estranged from the one person he cared for the most, Sydney?

I think he was so disabled by the depth of the betrayal, that he just shut down and shut out. Decided to steel his heart in a fortress and never allow any vulnerablility again. To love someone makes you vulnerable and that was a risk he was unwilling to take. However, Jack couldn't do it...even removing himself from her life as much as possible...he still cared for her and wanted to protect her. And seeing him let her in little by little since season 1 has been great!!! My favorite aspect of the show as far as relationships go!!! (y)
Do you think that Jack really planned on resigning, or is that something that he now wishes he had done? Why?

I think Jack did really plan on resigning and that is why Irina faked her death and got out of there! I don't think she would've exited the scene so promptly if it was not for the seriousness of his intent to resign.

Thanks for the great columns and the time you put into them!
 
Discuss . . .

Katya's during-the-marriage date for Jack's finding out that “Laura” was a KGB spy: continuity error or factoid? You make the call.


I don't remember this very well, but I'm hoping it wasn't a continuity error. I'll have to watch up so I can figure this one out. Is this something she said in S3?

Should Weiss have noticed that Sophia was hinky? Why or why not?

Ummm... Definitely? He wasn't very focused. Honestly I don't feel like we have seen Weiss in enough of these type of "sixth spy sense" scenarios to know what his instincts are like. He seems like he is fine when he knows what's going on, but trying to sense something being up? We could chalk it up to "blinded by love" and that he is so weakened around Nadia that he isn't really paying attention. Sofia is sort of "not guilty" in his eyes by association with Nadia.

Were you surprised that Elena/Sophia used Nadia/Weiss's authorization to move the hydrosec, thereby causing an obvious security breach? Why do you think this hydrosec is worth the risk?

Not at all. Maybe she wants to be found out, or could it be that once she has the hydrosec she really doesn't care one way or the other? This would be my guess. Once she has the hydrosec she'll be the one ultimately holding all the cards. I think a lot of details will come into sharper focus then. How she got there? What difference does it make?

(Let's discount Katya and assume Jack was clueless.) It seems Jack took the same open approach with Laura that Sydney wanted to take with Danny. Dixon disagreed and kept his secret from Diane, which got him into trouble when he found out about SD-6 and he confessed to her. Which policy is best and why—which would you take and how far would you take it? For example, it's one thing for a wife to know that you work for the CIA, another for her to know you're hiding a doctor in Finland.

I think if you are working for the CIA, keeping the secrets is the best policy. Perhaps not in all circumstances, but if one person is not in intelligence or "supposedly" is not in intelligence then it is best to keep them as outside the loop as possible. Otherwise their knowledge could become a danger to their life or to that of the family. Admitting to being CIA is one thing, but details on the whereabouts of carefully hidden former spies? Not a good idea.

Would you care to speculate on the reasons why Irina did not care for Arvin Sloane? Guilt? The fact that she had to do things with him that she preferred not to? Or just dislike?

Could you add the possibility "All of the above"...??? Because that would be my answer. :smiley:

Would you care to speculate on how Jack came to do just what he didn't want to—become estranged from the one person he cared for the most, Sydney?

I want to say that it was not just Laura/Irina's betrayal that somehow hardened his heart, but that does seem to be a pretty real possibility. He is much more closed off emotionally than he obviously once was. I think that could be because of her. Or maybe he found things out about Sydney and her future (Rambaldi -too tired to speculate on that at this time of night) but perhaps he came so obsessed with looking out for her well being that he became exactly the father that he didn't want to be. Beyond that I'm not sure.

Do you think that Jack really planned on resigning, or is that something that he now wishes he had done? Why?

Yes, absolutely, I think he planned on resigning. I think this admission to Laura/Irina was probably some sort of catalyst for her departure. I think it is a very realistic possibility that this conversation between him and Sydney was meant to begin to answer questions about what led to Irina/Laura's departure in addition to providing Sydney a much needed glimpse into her father's heart. See? One stone. Two birds. Alias... always multitasking.


Lovely column as usual. I don't know how you keep all the facts straight. I get tired just trying to keep up with you, and I'm completely obsessed with figuring out what's going on! How do you do it? Anyhow, I'm running over to the Spydad column now so I can take a look before tomorrow. (y) (y) ;)
 
Hm, going back over it, it looks like you're right, it was only implied. I'm probably only remembering the ABC write-up which had that as part of the contents of the SAB-47 document.

However, you'll remember that at the conclusion of season 3 they had Jack drone on and on about how he should have killed Irina when he had the chance (of all illogical statements). And when did he have the chance, pray tell? Are they referring to the Madagascar incident? Which would have led to Sydney hating him forever had he succeeded? I think not. Well, he didn't have a lot of chances later on that Sydney would forgive him for, did he? Well, that leaves earlier--which doesn't leave a very big window, y'see.* He has all of her escape time--and she ended up "dead" at the end of that, anyway, so . . . what's the complaint here? Unless he wasn't in prison and was out chasing her instead, y'see (and then she faked her death more convincingly later on). That's what I mean by strongly implied. And add in "continuity glitch" or history rewrite or whatever they were doing with the 5-year plan that Katya brought up to reinforce this possibility (because there's less reason to put Jack in prison) . . . blech . . . decide what you want to do, boys.

* It's not like he would have wanted to do it earlier than that even had he known.

There is always the incident when they were on a mission together just before she escapaed in Panama. Irina was in a fight, she was just finishing off when Jack kills a guy she hadn't seen. Jack could have meant he could have killed her then. I'm sure he could come up with a suitable lie for Syd!

I think the conversation you're referring to took place in the final episode of Season 3 (Resurrection?). If so, you're right, it is illogical because he must already killed her, or at least have had plans fairly advanced to do so if Sydney was to find the Wittenberg documents at the end of the ep.

I tend to think that this was a set up for the "reveal" that Jack had been out looking for Irina when he was supposedly in prison but the writers/producers changed their mind, leaving us with a continuity issue. But, until I hear to the contrary from Jack himself I am going with the prison story and explaining the gaff as per para. 1. -_- !
 
freelancer7 said:
Error! -_-  Unfortunately V, I do not think the writers pay as close attention to details as you do.  I think that we may run across some more incontinuities as the show progresses. :(
You'd think someone would notice a mention of 5 years when Sydney was older than that when her mother "died." :hmm: (Or maybe it's part of a plan they decided to drop?)

Totally...personally that was the most annoying scene of the whole episode to me!  To the viewer it was completely obvious and usually in Alias the spies all have this keen sense of discerning something amiss.  He was beyond oblivious... :rolleyes:
[post="1335101"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]​
This is exactly what I'm trying to get at. (y) Plus, you'd think that a magician would have some powers of observation, wouldn't you? I know that he and Nadia didn't have their game faces on, but they do have training. I don't have training, but I'm dead positive I would have noticed something--hell, Elena's whole demeanor changed completely! Don't these people listen to their guts?

Sloane Ranger said:
There is always the incident when they were on a mission together just before she escapaed in Panama. Irina was in a fight, she was just finishing off when Jack kills a guy she hadn't seen. Jack could have meant he could have killed her then. I'm sure he could come up with a suitable lie for Syd!
That would be more "allowed her to be killed" than "killed her" . . . but I suppose it could do . . . however, Jack was rather insistent on a do-it-yourself with Vaughn (never mind that I thought that whole concept was entirely out of character <_<).

I think the conversation you're referring to took place in the final episode of Season 3 (Resurrection?).
Possibly, but Jack had several "you must kill Lauren yourself" conversations with Vaughn over the last few episodes of season 3. I would have to go back over the episodes to point out the exact conversations and circumstances.

I tend to think that this was a set up for the "reveal" that Jack had been out looking for Irina when he was supposedly in prison but the writers/producers changed their mind, leaving us with a continuity issue. But, until I hear to the contrary from Jack himself I am going with the prison story and explaining the gaff as per para. 1. -_- !
[post="1335481"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]​
I think you may be right, that they might have decided on a plotline which they've subsequently decided not to pursue. The ABC SAB 47 reveal suggests as much (since it actually said straight out that Jack was not actually imprisoned). I don't mind them changing their minds so much, but it would be nice if they would do it before inconsistencies surface. However, the factual inconsistencies are a lot less bothersome than the character ones (you must kill Lauren or end up like me! d'huh?)!
 
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