Kids

[Luciro]

Lumping sex, violence, and death into the same glob is exactly what let's the Congress of the United States of America make all their drama on the evening news.

The fact is in our games there's going to be scripts that play out as stories that we play our roles in. Sometimes that role will have to meet a morality check. The option to take out a kid model NPC could come up in a million different ways in a grim action filled setting. What if the kid's possed by one of the non-demons running about the HJ world? Killing him would save lives but he'd lose his if you didn't have a certain ranked healer skill, you couldn't save him. How does that have any connection to rape?

None.

Fact is I'd like to see HJ take a stance that it's telling stories and folks are able to partake if they wish and affect it how they want.

Isn't all of that part of the monomyth that Hero's Journey took it name from?

 

[Silverblade]

Lumping sex, violence, and death into the same glob is exactly what let's the Congress of the United States of America make all their drama on the evening news.

The fact is in our games there's going to be scripts that play out as stories that we play our roles in. Sometimes that role will have to meet a morality check. The option to take out a kid model NPC could come up in a million different ways in a grim action filled setting. What if the kid's possed by one of the non-demons running about the HJ world? Killing him would save lives but he'd lose his if you didn't have a certain ranked healer skill, you couldn't save him. How does that have any connection to rape?

None.

Fact is I'd like to see HJ take a stance that it's telling stories and folks are able to partake if they wish and affect it how they want.

Isn't all of that part of the monomyth that Hero's Journey took it name from?

Sex, violence and murder (not death) are linked because in many ways they are all attributed to social morality and ethics. The question of killing children in the game ultimately moves us in the direction of morality/ethics of our culture.

I think you misunderstood my post. My comments were about escalation of content. So I will try to explain again using your example. Okay, so the game is all about story-telling. Sounds great. My question is, where is the line? If it's all about story-telling, pixels, fantasy, fiction, why would anything have to be avoided or removed? It's all fake, right?

So killing that child is just story-telling. Well, so is torturing that same child or the multitude of different ways to harm the child. If the premise is, "Everything is permissible because it's all fake," then there should be nothing so heinous that it should be banned from the game. Yet, I argue most, if not all people would consider many things inappropriate to the game.

A line is drawn by every person. Some lines are further along than others but it's there. Simutronics is not here to take a stand and needs to consider those lines. They are first a business to make money and second, to entertain. They have to consider the social climate of morality/ethics when making this game.

 

[Luciro]

If that's the case, and if there is an escalation of all lumped 'unmoral' actions...? Then how come in graphical MMORPGs torture, rape, and unmorality over all been added against adult NPCs? Animal NPCs? Mythical creature NPCs?
We've been killing them for a long time now in rather creative ways.
Why would it be different if the model indeed was just that of a smaller human?

 

[Silverblade]

If that's the case, and if there is an escalation of all lumped 'unmoral' actions...? Then how come in graphical MMORPGs torture, rape, and unmorality over all been added against adult NPCs? Animal NPCs? Mythical creature NPCs?
We've been killing them for a long time now in rather creative ways.
Why would it be different if the model indeed was just that of a smaller human?

It's our social climate. As it stands, it is alright to depict violent deaths of adults and non-humans but a red flag goes up when violence is attributed to children. I suppose we could go into why that's the case but the general consensus is, children are defenseless, innocent and still have much to live (not saying all these things are true, just a general consensus) thus their lives are more valuable than adults.

It's kinda like the Titanic. Why were women and children saved first and the men left to die?

The same model is rarely used equally among adults and children. I really don't want to go into depth with this but I think you can agree with me. A good example is, who is hated more? A rapist or child molester? I'm taking an extreme example to make a point.

Again you may disagree but that's the current social climate and as a business, I venture to guess Simutronics needs to consider that.

 

[Luciro]

I think polls would prove otherwise. I think the more emotionally challenged accept that as a fact and use extremes rather than real examples.

If a child model is a target in a MMOs story, for death or otherwise, I believe the majority of folks would rather see it played through. Star Wars Episode 3 was a good example, it happened. Oliver? A great story with less than pleasant situations children were placed in. Anyone hear the buzz about Hounddog? Dakota Fanning's latest drama film? None of it has lead to rape or molestation of children in real life, or a least I'd not think it exuberated it.

I think it's up to the players and the industry to follow general entertainment. I also believe there's enough checks and balances in place already where indeed assassinating say.. A child Cleric in HJ's world would be acceptable and not an act against the moral majority / minority. Unless it's hyperboled into such an event.

 

[Silverblade]

I think polls would prove otherwise. I think the more emotionally challenged accept that as a fact and use extremes rather than real examples.

If a child model is a target in a MMOs story, for death or otherwise, I believe the majority of folks would rather see it played through. Star Wars Episode 3 was a good example, it happened. Oliver? A great story with less than pleasant situations children were placed in. Anyone hear the buzz about Hounddog? Dakota Fanning's latest drama film? None of it has lead to rape or molestation of children in real life, or a least I'd not think it exuberated it.

I think it's up to the players and the industry to follow general entertainment. I also believe there's enough checks and balances in place already where indeed assassinating say.. A child Cleric in HJ's world would be acceptable and not an act against the moral majority / minority. Unless it's hyperboled into such an event.

I hope you are not referring to the poll in this thread because it does not represent the overall social climate of today's world. And to say someone is emotionally challenged because their views are different from yours could be considered narrow-minded.

And now I think you are reading too much into what I am saying. I never said such material caused actual violence. And I agree, using children in stories do create more drama. Now think about that for a moment.

I'll use your story again as an example. Why use a child as the moral sacrifice in your story? Why not an adult? Surely if the value of life is equal among adults and children, then using a child wouldn't create more "drama."

Why did you use a child in your story? Is it because children in harms way creates more drama? Be careful of this stance because you will be admitting there is something inherently more precious of children than adults therefore they should be considered more "sacred." Since children are more precious, using them in a story such as this creates a more moving and morality challenging story.

But if what you say (correct me if I am wrong) adults and children are the same, then again I ask the question: why use a child if an adult would generate the same effect with less controversy?

So yes, I do believe writers use children to generate more drama but even they have some limits. Notice Lucas didn't show Anakin slaying the young Jedi? It was implied. But Lucas had no issues of showing Anakin killing others.

I think the major issue isn't having children killed in the storyline but allowing players to wantonly kill children. The player isn't just observing it from a distance but actively involved in it (as involved as it can be in a game).

 

[Kuzzle]

Well, I mean, I don't think they'll allow you to just "wantonly kill" adults, either. But if you are attacked, you can bet your ass you'll be able to defend yourself. And it's not exactly a stretch to say that your actions could very well cause the death of a child's parents. Revenge, in all its glory, will be the only thing in that child's mind. They could very well slip out of the shadows and try to kill you. In such a case, I say you should be able to kill 'em.

 

[Dyngo]

If it scripted right, developer could get away with it it.

IRL there is sometime situations where its almost OK to kill children. I remember a war last year when the attacker bombed a village and alot of women and children was killed (dont remember if it was 30 or 50). The attacker said it was the enemy who used those people as living shield, and the attacker, sort of, got away with it, and the enemy got blamed for the kills.

Some things are more infected when it comes to entertainment. Why cant we ever play the nazis in WW2 games and kill russians, americans and brittish? Hitman is still OK, but why isnt the story about a mad serial killer and you plan the same killings on "innocent"?

These things will change, and we will probably change our attitude about it as well. At this point its only OK that the "bad guy" kill kids, as it is a effective way to show how bad he is as robbing a bank or killing a cop wont tell the same thing any more.

 

[Silverblade]

Well, I mean, I don't think they'll allow you to just "wantonly kill" adults, either. But if you are attacked, you can bet your ass you'll be able to defend yourself. And it's not exactly a stretch to say that your actions could very well cause the death of a child's parents. Revenge, in all its glory, will be the only thing in that child's mind. They could very well slip out of the shadows and try to kill you. In such a case, I say you should be able to kill 'em.

Well yes, if your character is attacked by a child, surely the game should allow you to defend yourself in some manner.

I just think that kind of scenario will never arise because the stories will be written in a manner where children will never be in that kind of situation. This is just my guess because I see Simutronics a business first and a roleplay fostering game-maker second.

So, I understand why players are pro-killing because it gives them a little more freedom. I disagree and would rather not see story arcs like that but I understand the other viewpoint.

 

[Silverblade]

Some things are more infected when it comes to entertainment. Why cant we ever play the nazis in WW2 games and kill russians, americans and brittish? Hitman is still OK, but why isnt the story about a mad serial killer and you plan the same killings on "innocent"?

These things will change, and we will probably change our attitude about it as well. At this point its only OK that the "bad guy" kill kids, as it is a effective way to show how bad he is as robbing a bank or killing a cop wont tell the same thing any more.

Exactly. Some things are just taboo right now. It doesn't matter if it's only a game or a fictional story. There's just some things that are avoided due to the controversy. I think allowing players to kill children is one of those taboos (in a general social way).

Possibly. I don't know if it's good if things do change.

 

[HJ-Pinnelipe]

So this conversation got me to wondering just how many games/movies/books I had that put children into unsavory situations.. I hadn't even realized I had so much!

Anime:
Excel Saga
Gunslinger Girl (this has to be the worst)
Noir
FLCL
Wild Arms

Regular Movies:
Pretty Baby (Yuck..)

Games:
Galerians
Breath of Fire 3
Suikoden (all games)
Alundra
Grandia(1 and 2)
Koudelka/Shadow Hearts (all games)

Books:
Harry Potter
Acorna
Peirs Anthony (Xanth and Geodyssy series)
A Familiar Dragon
Sailor Moon (the manga..Those are sooo different from the show. I've never seen so much suicide..)
Confidential Confessions (manga)


I'm sure there's more but I was trying not to confuse japanese characters that looked like children with the ones that really were children. It seems like they take something that looks 10 and say it's 14. Either way, it's a lot more common than I thought.. I know that, in the first Suikoden, people in your army that fight can actually die with bad moves during the army battles and often times do. They made it a lot less likely in the ones following, but in the first one it wasn't abnormal and some of the members of your army were children. There wasn't any emphasis on their deaths compared to others. There was a lot of focus on the lives of more civilian-like children. Suikoden 3 has a child even sacrificing herself (although she may just look like it and actually be 16, which I don't consider a child). That, however, was an emotional moment.

Admittedly, Pretty Baby and Confidential Confessions are both supposed to be about bad situations, as well as Gunslinger Girl which is about little girl assassins. Now..Are the men in that show bad guys for attacking little girls who are obviously trying to kill them? I don't think anyone is thinking that. It is situational.

 

[HJ-Diviana]

I like Galerians, although I have never beat it. I recently got farther than I had before (that game can be hard, mostly I got lost), but the PS2 is in MO with my sister (it's hers) so I haven't touched it since.

Funny thing about Sailor Moon (although I hate the show) is that in the later episodes two of them are passed off as cousins (not sure which, Ur---- and Jupiter I think) in America, but in Japan they are really lesbians.
We're so censored.

 

[HJ-Diviana]

Bajaja it censors Ur----.

 

[Naeya]

Oh the irony.

 

[HJ-Diviana]

Yeah, I'm easily amused when I'm over-tired, which I am right now, this very second.

 

[HJ-Pinnelipe]

Yes. They're actually a lesbian couple.. I have some of the japanese movies since I used to be a big fangirl and they flirt like crazy. Then again, the japanese also made one of the male bad guys sound female because of an implied relationship.

 

[MoonDancer]

Well I have played a game on an online serevr where children attacked you and you had to defend yourself by killing them >.< to be frank I hated it.

Personally its not something I like to see in a game I'm playing for enjoyment, and there needs to be a line drawn somether. There may be some situational cases as other posts have mentioned but its still something that leaves a "bad taste" in my mouth. As does some of the more unsavory things that sometimes are in some games. Its something I'd just rather avoid.

If theres a storyline that calls for it, alright but I still won't be enjoying myself and depending on the severity of it I might just leave.

 

[Kuzzle]

Well I have played a game on an online serevr where children attacked you and you had to defend yourself by killing them >.< to be frank I hated it.

Personally its not something I like to see in a game I'm playing for enjoyment, and there needs to be a line drawn somether. There may be some situational cases as other posts have mentioned but its still something that leaves a "bad taste" in my mouth. As does some of the more unsavory things that sometimes are in some games. Its something I'd just rather avoid.

If theres a storyline that calls for it, alright but I still won't be enjoying myself and depending on the severity of it I might just leave.

Uh, ":_|"? I don't get it. I mean, what, in your mind, is wrong with killing a kid? I mean, as opposed to killing an adult? It's the same thing.

 

[HJ-Pinnelipe]

Uh, ":_|"? I don't get it. I mean, what, in your mind, is wrong with killing a kid? I mean, as opposed to killing an adult? It's the same thing.

It's been said many times in the thread already. The fact that children are seen as more innocent. They have barely begun their lives and have done little wrong whereas most adults can't be considered as innocent.

Which has done something closer to murder, most likely? An infant or and adult?

 

[Kuzzle]

It's been said many times in the thread already. The fact that children are seen as more innocent. They have barely begun their lives and have done little wrong whereas most adults can't be considered as innocent.

Which has done something closer to murder, most likely? An infant or and adult?

Nothing was said about infants. Personally, I consider most children to be impetuous little beasts. They don't think things over, and lack all but the most basic impulse control. I can confidently assure you that, as I child, I deserved to be taken apart just as much as most adults I've met. As I've said, a lack of experience does not equal innocence.

Oh, and I don't think an actual reason has been given. "They look more innocent", in my mind, isn't as reason, you see. It's more like an excuse, but even then... It's not a good one. Maybe you guys just haven't met the same type kids I have, or something. *shrug*