Non-Combat Experience

[Wilwarin]

I was looking at the new Quillmore screenshots that were recently posted on the HJ official website, and I couldn't help but wonder if such a cool looking town would end up being completely empty, like many of the towns of Everquest (and of many games I haven't played, I'm sure). There are a lot of posts which talk about how it's nice when a game forces you to go back to town to progress, as this helps to keep the town busy and alive. Unfortunately, from what I've heard about HJ, it seems like progression will be purely based on an "experience bar" kind of system, which means that level progression is likely to be highly combat-oriented. This would be a shame to me, because there should be other aspects to your character which you should be motivated to improve upon. This is why I think there should be a number of different aspects of gameplay which are non-combat oriented, but which result in your experience meter going up by participating in them.

If HJ claims that it aims to support RP, one way they could do this is by having a library that people can go to that has stories and information about the history of Elanthia. People could then check out one of the books, and as they read it they would gain experience. To prevent cheating, you would only be allowed to check out so many books a day, and the amount of experience you gain could be based on how long you spent reading, with a maximum limit allowed for one sitting. Thus, if a town had a library, you would actually find people in it, as opposed to it always being empty. Another example could be experience gained from different trade skills. If you spent some time fishing on the docks, you could gain experience for each fish you catch, again making sure that fishing was not as simple as pressing a button over and over so as to avoid cheating. This would lead to people having a reason to sit on the docks and tell stories as they fished, again making towns more alive. Or if you decided that you wanted to get better at forging, tanning, fletching, or baking, these things could all give you experience based upon what you are able to make (how you would get better at the skill itself would be a different matter altogether).

Those are just a few ideas and I'm sure that there are a lot more out there that people can think of. It may be the case that some of the ideas like with the tradeskills may not be applicable for HJ (for example they might not even have tradeskills in the game, which I personally think would be a mistake), but I'm sure there are lots of ways that you can draw people away from the grind and into the towns in order to actually benefit from getting more out of the game than just hunting. And of course, the experience gained from such activities should be enough to make people actually want to participate.

 

[Pinky's Brain]

Minigames are tedious, if they take more attention than pressing a button every once in a while that doesn't make them interesting ... it just makes them more tedious. If they are the price for a busy city then the price is too high. Also it simply doesn't work in the way you describe. People doing non group tasks in a city will generally still not talk to complete strangers. People almost exclusively OOC chat on non local channels during minigames to fight the mind numbing tedium. How are these zombies any better than NPCs?

Tradeskill grinding is awful, far worse than any other kind of grinding because the gameplay is so much more repetitive. If a game tries to force me into it, either by making it a large part of your income or by providing in game advantages which can't easily be gained in another way it's a black mark on the game for me.

If you (partly) use transporter based travel and put the travel hubs in the cities and you combine that with brokers/vendors there will always be PCs in the cities. I see that in a game like EQ2 you can even manage to get suckers/players to run in game stores using high commissions and low amount of broker slots (whatever floats their boat, as long as I don't get forced into doing the same).

 

[Wilwarin]

The idea is that these sorts of things will grant you general experience, therefore you don't have to do them if you don't want to, but if you get tired of hunting, you can go do something else and not have to feel like you are wasting your time, because you can be gaining experience while doing said activity. It's not like you'd be forced to go read books at the library in order to advance to the next level. Instead, if you wanted to read about Elanthia's history, or just go fishing for a while, you could do so and gain experience as well. I think it would make for a more well-rounded character, and a better overall RP experience, if players had incentive to do things besides hunt all day.

 

[Gate]

I've always been a great fan of more rounded experience awards. The standard "kill fuzzy things to get wiser and more powerful" always struck me as rather bland and immersion breaking. That's why I tend towards computer games like the Elder Scrolls series and pen and paper games that break the D&D standard.

In these, experience is based on the sum total of one's experiences (hence the name experience and not kill points) and is applied based on what you have been actually working on. In the case of White Wolf's systems, exp can technically be applied to anything, but it is awarded at the end of each session based on character and player activity and achievement, not just fighting. It should also be spent in appropriate ways (often with required training times or on skills and abilities that have been frequently used and thus are reasonably raised).

In these systems, much like Wil said, everything is optional. If you want to crush furry things for your points, go right ahead, but if you want to take a scholarly bent to level up, you can do that also. However, I personally like the idea of the Elder Scrolls system where you use it to raise it... One of the things currently attracting me to Darkfall.

That said, any system that is really about experience and not kill points gets a vote of approval in my book.

 

[Performer]

I don't have Solutions either, but i, too, would like to see non-combat Activities and useful Things you can do in Towns. As for Minigames, i think Key is to make them count for something Bigger, because usually they don't turn out so much Fun that one would play them just so. I think just as Combat gets more engaging as it allows you to level up and has the Risk of Deah, so could something like Fishing be more Fun, if it weren't just unconnected Repetitions.

For Example, whenever you go Fishing, you accumulate Fortunepoints. As long as you have little Fortune, you only catch small Fish, but as you build up your Points, over the Course of Days or Weeks, you get bigger Fish, and the Chance to hook really epic Invertebrates. You can also expend Fortune to help you out, should the Fish be close to getting away. When a huge Fish shows up, that naturally consumes your Fortune, since if not, the Game would be done once you've build up enough. Now the Problem is, when you mess up and fail, you also lose a considerable Amount of Fortune.
So you keep catching bigger and bigger, but still rather unimportant, Fish, and are bent on increasing your Fortune. Always with the Risk of losing much of it - so you constantly have to gauge expending some Fortune to fix a little Problem, or trying with just your normal Skills and risking to lose much more.
I think something like this would keep every single Fishingsession more interesting, while allowing for greater Rewards, that can't just be achieved by Perseverance.

...now combine it with different Properties on Bait and Fishingrods, the Value of which depends a Bit on the individiual Character, and a Bit on global Values that slowly Change over Time. Then hide most of the Numbers and give some cryptic Feedback, and you may just get your very own elanthian Fishtales.

Hm... that got a little out of Hand, but i think i conveyed my Point.

 

[Jaraeth]

Also, after playing numerous MMO's, keep in mind that the game will attract noobs. And by "noobs" I mean "non-rp playing, hurry up and achieve max level, max gear and screw extra skills not related to Pwnt!'ing someone in PvP". This means, get people to have to read books in libraries, or fish... expect bots. Everyone in my house, but me actually, has used a fishing bot in World of Warcraft to level up their fishing due to the fact that no one wanted to sit down for more than 30 seconds. These are the same folks that say "KILL BASH MAIM DESTROY!" followed by "If it's a collection quest, I'm so skipping that annoying piece of felgercarb bothersome game destroying foolish..." you get the idea. They can vent for hours on tedium and un-fun things to put in a game.

Simu won't be able to appease them all. In my humble opinion, if they are as retentive with Hero's Journey as they are with their text games, then only a select few will play... their already niche-market. If they compromise, then they can attract the better half of the game market, but not alienate and push people away. I'm sorry if this offends you, but it is 'a truth in my mind': More gamers these days want graphics, lots of bloodshed, and a variety of play. They have taken "RP" out of "MMORPG" and turned it into "MMOG". That's just my opinion...

Now, I would like to see libraries in use, people sitting on the docks, fishing and chatting. THAT is how I formed my guild in Dark Age of Camelot, kind of. I leveled up, and then went to starter towns, and advertised... I would offer a complete set of armor (gloves, hauberk, helmet, pants, boots & cloak) colored to whatever they wanted, apply alchemy buffs/tinctures, etc to weapons and armor, and give them 1G. I'd ask the newbs for simple things in return, a single grey item usually found off of starter mobs in abundance. This usually allowed them to level without fear, and with friends to message when they had questions about the game. Usually this was also done once a week, on Saturday or Sunday. People liked that we were there for the newbs. We weren't all max level nor had the best shiny armor in the game either... some of us were only half level or so (lvl 25-30). We had a guild village, a village inside a housing zone where all the housing faced each other... 9 houses owned by guild officers, and one guild villa (3rd best house type in game). Each house had tradeskill items, npc's, and guild vaults with varying permissions based on guild rank. We gained nearly 450 unique members, and about 3000 characters at our prime some 3-4 years ago. Great people, having great fun, helping each other out, killing or tradeskilling, or just sitting around and chatting. It took me three years to hit max level, because I was often just sitting in the guild house chatting away with guildies in /guild chat while they were on dragon raids, storming keeps, or questing their time away.

THAT is what I call fun. Make a game that draws everyone. The issue everyone has to remember though, is that you can't please everyone. However, the better you tweak and set up the game, the more likely you might attract more of everyone.

Anywho, I might start repeating myself. I prefer the best of both worlds. Give me a little of each at start, see what people like, and run with it. Look at WoW... 9 million+ accounts... and some of my no-life friends have 5 accounts :-\

<goes out to somewhere to say he has a life while he actually stays seated and works on website coding>

PS: Badger Hockey was the best mini-game in Hibernia that DAoC ever had!! Badger Badger Badger Badger Badger Badger Badger Mushroom Mushroom! ... Snaaaaaaaake!

 

[Lilalu]

Yes, I hate empty cities and this dead atmosphere, with everybody rushing from quest to quest in most MMOs.

And I do not like to engage in the combat-oriented activities in MMOs. I´d really enjoy a MMO, in which one does not have to do any combat to gain experience. For example, if your character is a farmer or other crafter, he would have to go farming, maybe read books about farming, explore the world and find plants or m----cripts, which are important for farming. He would not have to go and fight monsters and do hundreds of quests, to level up. When such a games is developed in the future, I will quit any other game and go to play only this one 2 .

 

[Pinky's Brain]

Combat oriented MUDs have been around long enough for combat oriented players not to be called noobs. Socializing is fun, but that has very little to do with game mechanics, and it's also not incompatible with combat as you point out :

It took me three years to hit max level, because I was often just sitting in the guild house chatting away with guildies in /guild chat while they were on dragon raids, storming keeps, or questing their time away.

Apart from you they all seemed to be doing "noobish" things during your chats Also be honest now, how much of that chat was IC?

At least combat oriented activities can be social. How is walking around doing very unengaging minigames (tetris they are not) alone so much better? Just because there are other PCs also doing things alone on your screen? (Not talking to you either, whereas people I'm questing with will generally be talking to me.)

 

[Lilalu]

I guess this has nothing to do with socializing as such. Of course you talk to people, while you are doing quests. It´s just, that some of us do not like quests or combat. I don´t mind people doing it, but I hate to be forced doing it also in most MMOs. Usually you are forced to do it because 1) without it, you don´t level up and without leveling up, your character also can´t get better in other activities (such as crafting) and 2) because your friends level up and you also have to do it to be able to play with them.

I´d rather just go exploring, watching the grafics, improve some non-combat skills, sitt in pubs, go to the market having arguments about prices ...

In my eyes it´s just boring to kill pixel-monsters all the time 2 .

 

[Pinky's Brain]

There might be a market for a game which tries to mix "A Tale in the Desert" type gameplay with a more "classical" fantasy MMORPG, but I don't think Hero's Journey will be it.

 

[Jaraeth]

Combat oriented MUDs have been around long enough for combat oriented players not to be called noobs. Socializing is fun, but that has very little to do with game mechanics, and it's also not incompatible with combat as you point out :

Apart from you they all seemed to be doing "noobish" things during your chats Also be honest now, how much of that chat was IC?

At least combat oriented activities can be social. How is walking around doing very unengaging minigames (tetris they are not) alone so much better? Just because there are other PCs also doing things alone on your screen? (Not talking to you either, whereas people I'm questing with will generally be talking to me.)

I never said that combat oriented people were noobs. When I was referring to noobs, I was referring to sitting on a dock fishing, trying to chat, and instead you'd hear "0mG! This zhit is so F'n B0rING! Why Can't my lvl 70 Elemental Shammy just cast a lightning bolt into teh water and fry the f'ers?"

Combine leet speak, social ineptitude of 11 year olds trying to come across as being 30 year olds, and add impatience into the picture to produce an MMO jerk; and you have my definition of a noob. One who does not work well with others to produce a friendly and fun game. Combat != noob.

 

[Wyldchyld]

Let me start off by saying I broke my MMORPG cherry with GS III over 12 years ago. In the time since I have played quite a few MMORPG's and seen the Good, the Bad, and the Ugly(TM).

Certain things make dead towns (usually lowbi towns):
1. Too hard to level - if it's too hard to level (skill or time) then folks rarely want to level an alt. Replayability is key.

2. Game not fun - we need fresh blood, if the game is not fun your friends & family will not subscribe and roll a character. Who wants to play solo, so soon you would quit too.

3. No near by attractions - towns should be gathering points for dungeon crawls, boat ports, etc. Anyone remember the ghost town of Connla? (DAoC Hibernia) A town does not count as a gathering point if you still need to travel another 15-20 minutes from town to the attraction.

4. In town attractions - High level characters need a reason to visit the town too. Darnasus was a ghost town in WoW until 2 things were added, linked auction houses & Battle Ground queuing NPCs. Sure adding a town/world chat helped a tiny bit too but I shut that off to ease my nerves.

5. Open PvP - no one likes to be ganked. If you are going to die over and over again so some sicko can get his jollies you will quit the game soon. Towns need to have pvp restricted, I didn't say off limits completely just some major rules in place. Such as having a town where the opposing faction can raid in force, as in no ganking!

6. Tradeskills - towns need places to build, store, and market trade skill items. Ponds for fishing, fires for cooking, kilns for pottery, etc. Auction house or consignment merchants are huge attractions. Banks are a must.

7. Quest Givers - quests should be given of several levels. Sure have the town focus more on one level group for quests. But in higher level towns it should an NPC to direct you back to lowbi town to help out an NPC with a higher level quest.

I have never been a fan of mini-games but I can tolerate them if they are part of a quest or repeatable quest. Although one could argue fishing in MMORPGs is more of a mini-game.

 

[Lethe5683]

I like the idea of non-combat exp but only as long as it's something not stupid. I don't want some wack-a-mole minigame...

 

[Ashvirenza]

Hmmm interesting fishing... Heres my take on it

Various:
Bait
Rods
Spots
Fortune idea was wonderful
good spots that people can get like they do in real life maybe even staking claims on land if its that good
and the grand puuba formula is this

(mousewheel=fishingreel)=absolute win combined with interactive fishing system.

Sorry for my absence on forums...its just that im focusing on other things while mildly watchingfor HJs release

 

[Dane]

What about experience gained from being a political leader or some kind of guild leader?


The game claimed to have a tiered guild organization (House< Guild< Great House< Faction)

What if you got XP for being a ranked member of your guild/great house?

There is also the idea of some kind of administration position in a city or such. Perhaps a character can level being a magistrate? If each town had a set of magistrates and each gained political clout as they leveled there could also be abilities to invoke.

Perhaps you could ban a house or certain players from entrance to a city (allowing magistrates of the clan to still enter to try and fight for it back)

Other ideas include changing tax law
Changing store inventories
Changing town defenses and services
Raising a spy network
approving or denying proposals
Committing to wage war on certain settlments
Electing certain faction leaders to the Council Chair (each with their own platform)

Missions would include:
Serving special interest groups (taxing blacksmithing so burians will leave an Ilvari city)
Taking bribes to do some dirty deeds
Blackmailing other politicians (remember the spy network?)
Voting on Daily issues (magistrates present will vote before the end of the session day anytime they want to just walk in and cast a vote)
etc.

I was thinking of a large set of controversial issues and crimes that need arbitration.

Arbitration! I forgot about that. You could also serve as a judge to dispense justice on NPC disputes. Perhaps even PC disputes of sorts.

I feel this would give players a way to shape their world and have a controlled level of say in it.

By the way, first post. Good to you meet you all.
--Dane

 

[HJ-Navarre]

Interesting ideas, Dane. I've always thought that lording over a town or community in a mmorpg could be a lot of fun if done well.

Welcome to Hero's Hall!

 

[MagicOPromotion]

Non Combat Experience

In the demo 1 it was possible for me to open up an own non-dedi server with the server files. Is there something like that existing for the beta 2? Would be nice because both servers have a bad ping for me cause they are not stationed in germany.
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