Role-players vs. non-Role-players

Vahsyl

Cadet
I've been discussing this issue and debating it a lot lately with several people I know, and wanted to express my opinion about this topic here so that the VERY skilled and good community on these boards could lend their own opinions...

Basically, I've come to the conclusion lately that the 'battle' that's arisen between the RP community and the PvP Hardcore / PvE Raiding Hardcore community isn't actually something any role-player can blame the enemy on.

In truth, I believe that most of the problem stemmed from role-player attitudes themselves.

City of Heroes was my first MMORPG that I actually got into. It was also my first role-play experience. I had gotten to know the community through the boards before the game ever came out. What's sad is that back then we didn't need our OWN boards to RP and communicate on. It seems games often lately end up having a "RPer forum" address that is entirely seperate from the main, official boards. In CoH, we just RPed on the official boards in the sections provided. Also, there was no role-play server. The community as a whole picked a server as the "Unofficial Role-play server." Now, you'd think we would have been mocked and made fun of on a server like that as it wasn't even desnigated as a role-play one. Not so... We actually just encouraged non-RPers to RP just based on the fact we didn't lord it over them they had to RP. We did our own thing, and many people would go "Hey... what are they doing? It looks like fun... I want in on this..."

Sadly, ever since WoW came out and the "masses" of people have discovered MMOs, I've seen this change drastically. Suddenly millions of people became interested in online communities and games. Many people even started playing and didn't even KNOW what role-play was. Often, they didn't even get a chance to find out, because if they went on a "RP server" (not even knowing what it meant half the time) and didn't RP from the start, they were met with insults and people treating them like they were stupid. Granted, they often acted kind of silly when they met you, but instead of a wise person handling a child with care, I found most RPers just talked over their heads and sometimes refused to acknowledge them if they didn't speak in character in the 'correct channels.' (Like local, shout, and sometimes people even General... more on that below)

Because the community was seperated into "designated worlds" people seperated themselves as well. My first RP experience in WoW had me talking in Goldshire to someone, and a non-RPer walked up and asked something like "how do i level?" Well, the RPer I was with chose to mock them by 'not understanding' what they were saying, 'cause they obviously weren't asking IC. The person left... and some might argue he didn't even get what was going on, but I wonder... what if he just decided "Ok, that person was a dumbass freak who was too high and mighty for me... I'll get him later... arsehole..."

I've been guilty of this as well. I've never insisted someone role-play on a role-play server, but I have acted like the person was insane, when they used poor grammar and were obviously talking OOC in local, for example.

During my course of that game, I noticed many people even insisting General Chat be IC, and tons of people in that channel arguing with them. Guess who won?

I sometimes think RPers have done themselves much more harm than good. I don't think non-RPers sought out to kill the community and stop people from RPing... I think they just fought back against someone insisting they "play the game this way, because their way was wrong." The problem was that when they began to fight back, it soon became a much LARGER enemy than the one who had started the 'war.'

It's like many of the debates on forums I've taken part in. If you listen, and are STRONG about your own point, but when someone brings up another you don't post a reply that says the same thing stubbornly all over again, you come across as more intelligent. You can tell when someone's READ your previous post and cares to either adjust his or her view based on a point you made, or explain why he or she is still not convinced. However, calling anyone stupid never works, right? When misunderstandings sprout up, as heated debate often does 'cause this, if anyone might appear insulted it's important to apologize. I don't see how anyone could argue it's better to not be polite. Anyone who insists someone is wrong or an idiot EVEN IF that person is, logically, incorrect... never convinces the person they might be wrong as well.

Basically, I think we could do a lot better as a whole if we change some of our ways. If you see someone OOC shouting, just answer them IC. If you can't answer the question in an IC manner, send them a nice tell OOC explaining how to help them. Don't insist publically "(( Shout should be IC, THIS IS A ROLE-PLAY SERVER! ))." I mean, has anyone ever seen that work? When you force something on someone, they instantly fight it no matter what.

I know the arguement that "anyone who goes onto a role-play server should just leave if they don't want to role-play" is logical... but since when have humans acted logically?

What I did in CoH was remain in character even in a PuG. People often loved it, and even tried to strike up RP chats with me as we killed things because they could tell RP was fun. After all, I was doing it even if I was the only one. They reasoned it must be fun, else why would I DO it? Did I once tell them (( I'm sorry, this is a RP server and I'm remaining in character because if I don't want to RP I should go to another server. )). No. Granted we didn't have the 'tag' but it really doesn't matter. Sometimes people just choose a server based on location and don't even notice the tag.

Try and remember that you can never ever ever FORCE someone to do something they don't want to do online. If you try, they'll fight you EVEN IF it's only because they don't want to forced. If you've ever heard the saying "you attract more flies with honey" you'll understand what I mean.

My overall wish is to get people to explain what RP is, in tells, to people that seem interested. If they don't seem to care, just treat them as someone who speaks funny maybe, but don't ignore them or mock them if they are being polite and not attacking you. I guarantee though that if the debates in general channels and shout start up in ANY game, we'll only once again create a community of non-RPers and RPers who hate each other... regardless of the world.
 
There's two things that I wanted to bring up here.

I view roleplaying as a 'why not' type of a deal. I'm playing a game to ESCAPE my life, not to talk about it in detail. That's what IMing and MySpace are for... I RP because it's fun. I like being a dhe'nar dark elf that clearly has a beef with faendryl dark elves and shows it (however cliche' that is). I like that my half-sylvan picking rogue has a generally cheery personality while my dark elf sorcerer clearly has something not right in the head... Why do I want to play a game as me? It becomes a chore. It becomes an 'I must get to level 50' 'I must get the uber axe of uberness' instead of something fun.

In Gemstone, my Rogue is level 42 and has been around for 10 years. My Empath was origonally rolled up in 1996 and is level 19. I don't play this game to get to the 'end' or to be the best. I play the game to be social. My goals are different than the powerlevelers. Do I want my characters to advance? Sure... but that doesn't mean I'm not upset my Rogue can't gain ranks of lockpick mastery faster than he levels by picking the boxes needed for it. These days, I cringe when I level, because I know I can't catch up in my LM.


The second point (as if the first point didn't meander like a retarded monkey) is about the 'attitude' that hardcore RPers take with non-RPers. Nobody ignoring somebody is going to make them quit, isn't going to piss them off enough for much of anything. That being said, you can be a snob IC and still help them through tells. The problem isn't the RP community, it's the game itself. GS has basically a way for new players to get aclimated to the climate of an RP environment with unpaid volunteers. It keeps the snerting and general asshatery to a minimum. When a game has that kind of a mentor program, new players don't come in asking what people thought about the 49ers game last night...


Anyway - if I'm not reading too much into you, I'd probably say Gemstone would be right for you. I think you would really enjoy it.


I guarantee though that if the debates in general channels and shout start up in ANY game, we'll only once again create a community of non-RPers and RPers who hate each other... regardless of the world.
Not in GS... the conversation would go something like this:

Snert: Shut up you dumb role players. Stop bothering me, it's just a game.
RPer: what?

RPer just appears in a fog and stands in front of Snert
RPer gestures at Snert
Snert is webbed and a pall of silence falls over him
RPer thumps Snert

RPer fogs out of the room


20 minutes later... after he can breathe again and the silence wears off.
Snert: I'm sorry... Please don't hurt me again...


In an 100% open and RPing game, there is no debate. There is no question. IC is the only way, live with it. If you don't like it, go to WOW. Simu lets the player base police themselves for the most part. Bickering is solved by a GM... Game companies are too worried about abuse of power and other BS that they would never go for it.

Can I go into Town Square and kill everybody in there with one spell? I'm a sorcerer, of course I can. Will I? probably not - not only would the fine be more than my pocketbook, but I'd be killed repediately by the guys I killed, and deeds aren't cheap for my level... GS Polices itself and does a very good job of it. WOW, FFXI, EQ, LOTRO, etc. doesn't.
 
I agree and disagree with both points of view. I know right off the bat that that doesn't seem to make sense, but I'll explain..

See, I'm one of those people that has to see everything for myself so when I first discovered what role-playing in an mmorpg was (in WoW), I looked at the roleplaying server rules. In the rules, it said this before saying any rules at all-
"If you find another player acting in a manner that contradicts the spirit of the guidelines detailed below, you must first verbally request that the offending player to discontinue his/her behavior. If the actions continue after this request, only then should you contact a Game Master (GM). Remember to be respectful of others' storylines for we must all work together to maintain the continuity of the Base Storyline. Good luck and safe journeys! "

What does that mean? I considered my tickets very carefully because I had to go through the trouble of informing each one of the rule being broken and discuss possibilities with them before reporting, and then I woul give them a week to fix the rule being broken. I would completely explain everything they asked. Roleplaying was thoroughly explained and the address to the policy was given. How many times was I listened to? Not many.. And so I'd be filling out a lot of tickets a week later.

I used this with everything I did. It was well and good for a unofficial rp server to have oocers to. I'm fine with that because it was not in the rules. When these people went on a roleplaying server, they did it without doing a lick of homework. To me..it was a bit lazy and they must have expected to be making some mistakes then. Someone does not go on a pvp server and expect no one to gank them because they don't want to pvp. I don't agree with reporting everyone under the sun though without doing the homework myself and going through the work asked of me in informing the person why they might be reported. Heck, I did many rounds into the starting areas, just copying the RP Policy address into the general chat channel of the places. I did that for both the roleplayers and the non-roleplayers that were confused.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that I agree roleplayers have a reason to be annoyed, but that I don't agree with all the actions taken. I suppose I'm close to Vahsyl after all, but I don't think the war is only the RPers fault. It reminds me of when I used to read during class in high school when someone says something like that.. People would often clap right beside my ear, poke me in the back, or even sometimes steal the book and vandalise it. I'm still on the fence on whether the rpers started it by too much pacifism or too much anger.. I still think we originally had a reputation of being so very nice and giving and that is why people started coming to rpers, but we got angry when being kind got us nothing but a mutation into welcome mats...so we started giving them rug burn.

Edit: Also, afraid of a thump option being in HJ slightly..just because I know the sort of people get the highest first normally.
 
It reminds me of when I used to read during class in high school when someone says something like that.. People would often clap right beside my ear, poke me in the back, or even sometimes steal the book and vandalise it.


Wow, I thought I was only person that had deal with asshats like that.

I use to be very poliet to OOCers (note: Not Non-RPer. OOCer. Non-RPers don't bother me, people who who behave like idiots do). I've played games completely out of character before, I didn't actually start RPing in games, like Pinn, until WoW. When I started to get into RP I too went out and read all the rules, learned all I could. It's the sort of person I am, I don't need anyone to tell me how to RP. That's what google is for, I can figure it out myself. That probably leads to a lack of desire to teach, true enough.

But there's only so much grief you can take. Case in point: Once in EQ2 I was sitting with a few friends and chatting in spacial. Someone comes up and starts jumping on us... just BOING-BOING-BOING on our heads. We blinked at them, chuckled and asked them to please stop bouncing on us, cried out when our toes were squished etc. The person said, and I quote "lol" then continued to leap around in circles. One of my friends sent him a tell, very nice girl, and explained that he was disrupting and why and asked him to please stop. His response? To call us all "---' and jump even more.

Two weeks ago Pinn, Tyrson, Tyrswind and I were in Undercity (yes, WoW. DEAL!) listening to a simply breathtaking song that was part of a quest we were RPing through. Half way through really being moved by this beautiful song an orc runs up and slaps the NPC who was singing, repeatedly I add, and proceeded to say "shut up ho. ur singing sucks" and then... bounce. Could we have nicely explained to that person that they were disrupting our RP? Yeah, and it would have gone REALLY well I assure you. None of us even mentioned it, without missing a beat I am 98% sure the guy was /ignored by four people all at once.

I gave up, a very long time ago. When not in company that I know are RPers I just generally don't talk, if I'm in a game that is less than friendly to RPers I RP only in party and pretend to be afk if someone comes bouncing in. I filter out everything but party and/or guild chat. That's how I deal with them, /ignore and then hold still for the ten seconds it takes their short attention span to get bored and wander off. It's amazing and scary how well it works, with no one there to pick on (they imagine) they just go away. It's the only way to manage my blood preasure while playing with the unwashed masses, it isn't any fun to deal with asshats.

People are jackarses, RPer and Non-RPer alike. I've met some RPers who drove me up the wall (Heeeeelllo! Ren.), I've met some gank happy lol-ers who's greatest joy is ruining your night and pissing you off. I've also snapped at people before who ended up applogizing and turned out pretty nice even if their typing skills still lacked. But I don't really have the patience to filter through the chafe to find the few good seeds, not in what is suppose to be my fun time. My Xfire profile has stated for years "Speak or behave like an idiot near me and you will be ignored, it's how it works." and I do simply /ignore anyone typing leet or talking about RL stuff in spacial.

I'm sure that for every could have been RPer who was put off by an RP-nazi there are a dozen were-RPers that no longer really do it because of the grief and/or constant disruption they recieved. Or downtrodden vets like myself, who tend to keep it quiet because they've had all they can take.

Edit: In both GS and DR THUMPing someone without reason or IC background is both reportable and grounds to legally attack them.
 
I completely agree with Vahsyl. From the numerous MMOs I've played, CoH has given me the most satisfaction in RP. And the main reason is, the RP community banded together on Virtue (the unofficial RP server). I'm actually glad the devs didn't designate a server officially. By not tagging the server with a set of rules, RPers of all kinds managed to find a niche of their own on the server.

I also want to add, although I do RP and many of the stories that I involve myself in is very in-depth and immersive, I never take the RP too seriously. I can be casual or hardcore in my roleplay. I just learn to adapt to the situation and I accept the fact that people play the game for different reasons. Even the leet speakers have a right to play and who am I to argue that their methods are wrong?

For instance, if some player walked up to me and said, "U no where trainer at?" (poor example of leet talk but you get the idea), I would not respond ICly nor would I expect that person to respect an IC response. I'd answer that person OOC. Why? Clearly the person isn't interested in RP and my attempt at IC conversation will not help the situation. Just because I RP doesn't make me the better player/person nor does his leet speak make him a lesser person.

Now if the person said, "Do you know where I can find the trainer?" I could easily respond IC or OOC and in CoH I do respond IC. As a roleplayer I need to identify people whom I may be able to sway towards RP. If the person types in complete sentences then I am more likely to sway them and they will most likely respond in a mature manner, even if it isn't a RP response. I wouldn't expect that from leet but I would try to help them too. There is no reason for me to be arrogant and ignore them because RP is not greater than leet (many would argue against this but we all play the game for entertainment and both provide it to different people).

Roleplayers are a minority. If RPers want games to be more RP-friendly, they have to take the high road and be more civilized. They need to be patient. They have to remove the stigma of being elitist and too uptight. I really do think the condescending attitude that some RPers have really does hurt the community. If a griefer is ruining your RP, move to a new location. Yes, it's unfair. But a shouting match only fuels the flame against RPers. If the person follows, then you have a legitimate case for harrassment and griefing and can petition the GMs.

At first, the Virtue server had a lot of the problems every other MMO faces when it comes to RP. The griefing appeared and threatened to destroy the RP in CoH. But the RPers on the server were patient and understanding (well, most of them) and now Virtue is a great place to find RP, even in PUGs. Yes, the griefers are still there but the atmosphere in the server is amazing.
 
I think that even though the RULES of an "RP server" are clear... we all must realize that they will rarely be enforced.

Why would a game company choose to risk someone's paying subscription leave? They don't. We've SEEN that rules aren't enforced.

Now, a game like Gemstone on the other hand might be different. It's SUCH a niche game and PvP is possible anywhere that the community ends up HAVING to police itself. That can work.

But honestly... until WoW I never saw this widespread problem of non-RPers hating RPers. You might want to blame the gaming company if you wish..... rules were set out, RPers sought to enforce those rules, but it never happened that they were enforced.

I see a lot of non-RPers always making fun of RPers by going "REPORT REPORT REPORT!!!" That shows they were probably constantly told by a role-player they were going to be reported.

And many of the problems some RPers deal with have been brought about by others being elitest, sure. I'm sure tons of you never once were rude to anyone, or snobish, and suddenly you started being griefed for no reason. However, I tell you this now... in a game where you can't beat someone up, and can only use words, EVEN IF YOU ASK NICELY for someone to stop bothering you, they most likely won't. They just won't. Why? Because they are bored, don't have to, and they get a thrill out of making you mad and getting a reaction. Don't let them!

FFA PvP games seems to just be the best solution... when there are consequences for someone's actions, they tend to pause before being an ass. In fact, I seriously hope HJ comes out with a FFA PVP server, as I'll be there in a heartbeat.

See, I try not to see things how they should be, I try to see things how they are. We know mainstream games just aren't creating a good community for role-play. So, how do we counter this? By acting like most people did in CoH.

Don't force. Coerce quietly.

Try and think to yourself "Ok, even though this is frustrating AND it pisses me off... how do I deal with it? What will honestly SOLVE this problem?" The trouble I see is RPers are SO angry at the abuse, they don't want to be understanding and patient anymore... however, when you're in the middle of a war against a side that is ten times larger than your own... it's time to either leave the battlefield or use guerilla tactics of propaganda and subterfuge. :smiley:
 
I think that even though the RULES of an "RP server" are clear... we all must realize that they will rarely be enforced.

Why would a game company choose to risk someone's paying subscription leave? They don't. We've SEEN that rules aren't enforced.

Now, a game like Gemstone on the other hand might be different. It's SUCH a niche game and PvP is possible anywhere that the community ends up HAVING to police itself. That can work.

This resonated with me deeply.

In GS and DR, the community is able to police itself. The tools exist, through thumping, binding, silencing, etc. When these tools are abused, or when players attack each other without any IC reason, that's when administrative enforcement comes into play. Keep in mind enforcement is pretty fast in both of these games.

Games like EQ2 and WoW have no player enforcement options. Anybody who ruins the environment has to be referred to administration, and admin is slow to respond. This is primarily because of two reasons: one, that the staffing level to have rapid response in worlds that size would cut deeply into profits and two, the possible loss of subscriptions.

Simutronics, being a small company, doesn't have 'progressive profitability goals' set for it by the VP in charge of their unit. Further, they value long-term subscribers, as they often have Premium accounts, buy event tickets, and/or have second accounts. That's not to say they don't care about the long term, but they realize that a small-term hit can result in a better future. Hopefully they'll be ready to deal with policing a community that is unable to police itself, at least until the initial influx of people who don't want to follow the rules has passed.
 
Right, and that's why I'm hoping HJ will adhere to the same system... but then again, a true MMORPG using state of the art graphics can be so expensive to run and support with tech support and GM support that even they might fall prey to the problems other games run into...

We'll have to wait and see.
 
I know the discussion is for the most part over for now, but I thought I'd show a few screens of the situation Ainilome mentioned involving Tyrson, Tyrswind, her, and me. While trying to take screens of the beautiful scene, I managed to get a bit too many with our little friend in them. I almost have the whole thing without having needed a movie.

First, he comes hopping in..
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v291/Yuffie-Teddy/Badorc.jpg

Then, he stops right up on the platform. Neither are a crime of course.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v291/Yuffie-Teddy/Badorc2.jpg

Maybe he's rping and trying to get himself killed by Sylvannas' guards?
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v291/Yuffie-Teddy/Badorc3.jpg

Not sure I am seeing the point to doing all this..
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v291/Yuffie-Teddy/Badorc4.jpg

It may not have been the worst thing in the world. I've gotten worse (ask any of these three great role players, I seem to attract really bad people in these games like a magnet). However, it did ruin a beautiful moment and it was the first time for some of us to see it.
 
to the OP:

I think what we need to understand here is that it really isn't an rp or non rp issue, Its a people issue. Human beings (average human beings that is) are by nature territorial and in any environment this nature has a tendency to come to the surface and then people get rude (or worse) with who ever the "others" are.

I do know what you are talking about however. I played EQ from 2002 just before Shadows of Luclin went live, and I remember an older rp kind of community. I didn't play on an rp server ( there was only one in old EQ anyway), but I did spend some time in an rp guild. I did not see a lot of this animosity between the two types of players back then ether. About a year and a half ago I left EQ2 and went to WoW (have sense then returned to EQ2) and decided to play on rp servers as I like the immersive feeling and I also liked talking to people who used full words in their sentences rather than a string of acronyms. I found a lot of what you did and it took me off guard and has led me to a lot of questions about the WoW community.

I feel though that part of the real problem with that game though is not so much who is what, but rather that the game rule sets in WoW tend to encourage players to "grief" ( cause other players problems) in the name of encouraging pvp combat and I think it spills over into the perspective of the players as a whole. I have found my self in gen chat channels defending both rp players and non rp players being attacked in chat by ether side for silly reasons that made no sense other than it seemed to be a battle of territory. I have also seen similar battles of words in EQ2 though not as much as WoW. These battles tend to be ( from my experience anyway) on servers marked as rp by the game it self and the non rp types are often I think seen as invaders to the immersive experience that the rp players are looking for when they choose those servers. On the other side the non rp players seem to be defensive of those who try to force them to chat IC.

IMO the best solutions to these kinds of issues is to make things as clear as could possibly be made and to remember that many players never read special rules such as game chat policies ,special server rules or name policies. If a server is labeled as rp I feel it should have certain rules that are different (to defend both the rp type and the non rp type) and I would honestly rather have something in my face at every game launch rather than deal with endless debates on who has what rights while I'm trying to enjoy the game.
 
I don't have so much of a problem with non-RPers as I have with anti-RPers. I know they exist. I've seen them. When I tried out WoW, they'd just opened up a new RP-PVP server, so I hopped on to check it out. The entire time, General chat was flooded with people openly harassing the RPers. Name-calling, insults, etc. etc. etc. Needless to say...I didn't bother, and gave up on RPing in WoW. Soon after, I gave up on WoW altogether.

In EQ2, there was actually a guild at one time *created* as an anti-RP guild. They told everyone they were a guild against RPers. And this was on a server that specifically states "Role-play Preferred". I've also seen guilds where they state that if you are a role-player, don't bother applying to the guild. And then...there is at least one raid guild where the officers gather members of the guild for "raids" on areas that RPers are known to gather. One night, a huge group of them brought their huge mounts into the tavern and crowded out all the RPers.

Its *these* people that should be forceably moved to another server, or removed from the game altogether if the harassment is bad enough. If you don't want to role-play on a RP server, fine, but don't harass and attack people who do.
 
I don't have so much of a problem with non-RPers as I have with anti-RPers. I know they exist. I've seen them. When I tried out WoW, they'd just opened up a new RP-PVP server, so I hopped on to check it out. The entire time, General chat was flooded with people openly harassing the RPers. Name-calling, insults, etc. etc. etc. Needless to say...I didn't bother, and gave up on RPing in WoW. Soon after, I gave up on WoW altogether.

In EQ2, there was actually a guild at one time *created* as an anti-RP guild. They told everyone they were a guild against RPers. And this was on a server that specifically states "Role-play Preferred". I've also seen guilds where they state that if you are a role-player, don't bother applying to the guild. And then...there is at least one raid guild where the officers gather members of the guild for "raids" on areas that RPers are known to gather. One night, a huge group of them brought their huge mounts into the tavern and crowded out all the RPers.

Its *these* people that should be forceably moved to another server, or removed from the game altogether if the harassment is bad enough. If you don't want to role-play on a RP server, fine, but don't harass and attack people who do.

I agree. I don't mind non-RPers. Quite frankly there are times when I don't feel like RPing and just running quests and chatting.

I am surprised at these anti-RP guilds. I guess I have been fortunate enough not to witness any of these things in my gaming. But then again, the majority of my RP were done amongst guildmates. Rarely did we RP in the open although in CoH, the culture of RP was so accepted on Virtue, we did and often we had curious observers who didn't interfere. Some ended up becoming RPers afterwards.
 
I always fail to see the need for designated RP servers. In fact, I think they may be counterproductive, because the trend of slapping in an RP server started with the type of games that marked in my eyes the decline of RP in MMOs.

Was there ever more RP in MMOs? Yes, in fact there was. Back when MMOs were smaller and took their cues more from MUDs, things like Nexus: The Kingdom of the Winds and Dark Ages. They actually did have some rules against OOCing but RP existed in different measures. Some people had one foot inside the gameworld and one foot outside it, but that was okay. Usually nobobdy bashed RPers, and usually nobody bashed the nons.

I suppose part of it is a selfish desire of mine. I don't want to keep two characters and two groups of friends on two servers for two moods, the mood to RP, and the mood to have an OOC laugh. In the 'good old days' I could have both on a single server. UO, I could go to one of the places RPers had carved out as theirs and have a good RP session. Likewise I could go to Britain West Bank and mingle with the OOCers, and frequently did so and enjoyed myself. Even converted quite a few of them to pseudo-RPing themselves, and a couple to real RP.

The hallmark of this was that these were very 'live and let live' kind of things. The RPers weren't competing with the PVEers, so we didn't clash, by and large. Plus, this allowed for a more steady influx of RPers as they were casually introduced to it, and their first response to OOCness wasn't "GET THE HELL OUT THIS IS AN RP SERVER!".

Sure, not everyone is that bad, but plenty of people are, on both sides of the fence, and it's just not necessary. I believe HJ will come out with an RP server but it will just perpetuate the problem. Maybe this is unacceptable to those who've played in self regulating MUDs before, but MMOs are just a different creature, and live and let live, wether it's in Nexus, Dark Ages, Ultima Online or more recently City of Heroes/Villains just produces better results, less strife, and a nicer overall feel of community.

Slapping an (RP) tag onto a server name and mixing in some unenforcable rules won't help things. It'll just paint a big bullseye on the server for the antis to come harass you, it seperates the RP server economy from the PVE economy and thus attract non RPers who want to profit from the RP-server-easy-mode, and just those who can't stand the immaturity of PVE servers. This will send RPers into a rage because by marking a server as RP they gain a sense of entitlement. That'll create strife inside the community, and a generally noxious downwards spiral where RPers hate PVEers, and neither camp approaches the other because they mutually shun eachother.

It'll happen, and because of that I hope there won't be an official RP server. It is better to coexist peacefully and for both camps to have their place than for entitlement to ruin the cooperation between both camps and encouraging griefing from both ends out of frustration with the other.

Course, I doubt anyone believes me, but c'est la vie. I've been playing MMOs for over a decade now, and I've seen unofficial RP servers turn out to be much nicer places, for both PVEers and RPers, than any official RP server I ever saw.

EDIT: Come to think about it, I probably wouldn't be a roleplayer now - or at the very least not as skilled/enthusiastic of one - if I hadn't been gradually introduced to it in Nexus without negativity leveraged at me for not RPing or even knowing what it was. If back then there'd been an RP/PVE divide I would've gone onto PVE, and never learned about RP, or gone onto RP eventually for easy mode or to get away from immature idiots and get almost stoned for not RPing, knowing what RP was. I'd probably have started hating RP and never given it a chance.
 
I know this is kind of a short response for the length of your post. But one thing you didn't mention is how not having RP servers would fix any problems or make things better. With a company like Simu that claims they will actively promote RP on appropriate servers and actively discourage griefing of RPers on those servers, you have a nice environment for RPing, one would think. If you mix everyone together then you have RPers trying to pretend they are in a sleepy little low-tech town while someone three feet away is spamming about how their favorite football team just won. And while RP servers might be a magnet for those who want to grief RPers, non RP servers are, well, mostly filled with non-RPers and with people who don't really tolerate the sometimes less than efficient way that RPers do things.
 
With a company like Simu that claims they will actively promote RP on appropriate servers and actively discourage griefing of RPers on those servers, you have a nice environment for RPing, one would think.
I'm operating under the assumption that they either won't bother, that if they do bother it will be insufficient to really make a dent in things, and that even when it makes a dent you'll get the "mommy said daddy said" GM hopping behaviour I witnessed in WoW for name changes (the one thing they did do) where people who got their name changed shopped around for GMs until they found one to change it back.

So operating under that assumption there's two ways it can go:
1. RP servers, which will have nons on them either to grief or otherwise, and will have a lot of tension especially due to RPers frustration with insufficient enforcement, which will make breed resentment and make enemies out of the two respective camps.
2. No RP servers, which means that both groups will have to make the best of it and there's no entitlement and that yes, some people might have to blank out the nearby talk about a football match. But at least then there's potential for amicability.

Of course, I may just be a pessimist, but why should I believe that proper enforcement will be achieved this time when it never has before? This isn't DR or GS, after all, and populations will likely be far larger to the point where the community won't be able to police itself, leaving everything up to GM arbitration, which frankly seems like an impossible task to me.
 
Well, there's another way to look at it too. Some of us don't want the ooc laugh time. Some of us would just like everything to be REALLY like a world. Yes, maybe we're setting ourselves up for disappointment and heart break, but it's what makes the game fun to some. The possibility that they can fully play out a character's story. This doesn't work well on any sort of server not labeled for role playing now of days.

I have seen attempts at not labeling a server for rp. The solution then for rpers is an unofficial rp server. Doing the same thing but not giving the rpers a chance to have any sort of rule set. The difference between today and yesterday is that yesterday's games already had today's rule set in their mmorpgs. Today's mmorpgs have the bare minimum as their rule set now.

The rules do not make the experience, it's always the people with a little help from the gaming tools. Labeling just makes it so people can know what to expect there. And, yes, I want everyone to always be ic in /say and /yell type channels. I'll joke with friends in party or whispers.

I'm sleepy..doubt any of that came out right.
 
It does make sense, and for the record I don't begrudge anyone who wants that, just because it's not always my preference, and my OOC laughs have certainly never interfered with roleplayers, I've always done that away from people who were roleplaying out of respect.

Still, I just don't think it'll happen. Part of me does really hope Simu proves me wrong, though.
 
Simutronics has, in the past, dealt with exactly this kind of issue, and other even more undesirable player behavior issues, by resorting to an interesting and refreshingly simple idea.

In DragonRealms, you were supposed to always be at least partly in Character and you were summarily rewarded for good IC activity and punished for OOC activity. Overall it was a reasonable balance, because you could be OOC if you really wanted, just not blatantly and in public. If you were really OOC, nice RP'ers would politely explain that you should really be in character. If you persisted in being OOC, experienced players had in game abilities like THUMPing that allowed them to police your actions without resorting to calling the GM's. If you really insisted on continuing to ruin people's fun with your disregard for their RP wishes, the GM's got on your case and they didn't just slap you on the wrist.

This was, however, in the golden age of MUDs wherein there wasn't such a huge MMO market to be exploited and there was nowhere near the current expectations of "non-roleplaying gamer appeal" that any successful major game developer these days seemingly must meet. DragonRealms was liable to appeal only to roleplayers anyways. There wasn't demand among non-roleplayers to play the game and to be allowed to do so without having to roleplay. Nowadays, the opposite is very much true. Roleplayer are now the minority, and video game designers care mostly about appealing to the non-roleplaying crowd of players, as they make up a much larger percentage of the player-base, and as such provide a much larger percent of the profit base as well.

~~~~~~~

Simutronics ultimately decided that one of the best ways to combat both this specific roleplaying confliction and things like OOC activity, game mechanics exploits, abuse, fighting, swearing, and all the other things "not allowed" in the game, would be to just turn around and suddenly allow them all. Only on a different server. Simu introduced DragonRealms: The Fallen - a new, separate game world, an exact copy, utterly identicle except for one very important detail:

No rules. No GM's. A world completely filled with fierce and utter competition. A world where players were forced to band together for survival, and to constantly watch their backs to ensure their new friend didn't slit their throats at their earliest convenience. Clans and militias held the true power, and whoever was in control made whatever rules they liked. Might made right. Anyone could kill anyone for any reason at any time, so long as they have the strength to do so. It was utter Anarchy in its purest form.

What a brilliant idea! There will always be those who would rather disregard the rules of a game system than play it properly. If you leave them alone, they ruin the game for those who do want to play properly, which loses you customers. But, if you crack down on offenders, then they resist you, which eats up your resources, and they ultimately abandon you, which also loses you customers.

The Fallen was a way to allow rule-breakers to ignore rules without hurting normal players, and it was also a way to allow normal players to play normally without hurting the rule breakers! It gave each disparate faction of player exactly the kind of scenario they wanted, removed the negative cross-fire effects between the two different play styles, and best of all, maintained the highest total number of subscriptions possible!

Why, then, do RP servers in games like WoW not work, even though there are plenty of non RP servers to choose from? Lack of enforcement. Plain and simple. DragonRealms had the strongest enforcement I have ever seen. It had a foundation of player-managed enforcement measures, which allowed players to police themselves, and it also had strict GM enforcement for matters which fell beyond the realms or abilities of self-policing.

~Dune~
 
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