Same Faction PvP

Rics

Cadet
So, am I the only one who wants the ability to PvP against same faction? I'll agree it could completely suck if the PvP system is horrible, but with a good PvP system it would be great. In WoW and EQ2 PvP is restricted to factions, and that completely eliminates a criminal/villian persona. It was so funny to watch Alliance members on WoW RP traitors in text and story, yet never be able to do it in-game. Not being able to "murder" or "betray" your own faction means no bounty, no criminal flag, no traitors.

Now before everyone panics, at least hear me out. I know this has the potential to be disastrous and that is why it will only work with a good PvP system. In other words, choosing to PvP your own faction has to come with huge negetive results if caught and reported. If witnessed by NPCs, or when done too quickly too often, a warrent must be issued for their arrest. The warrent should flag them to guards and all other NPCs. If a NPC recognizes them they need to either attack or call guards. Also other players should be able to hunt then and collect the bounty. If caught alive by the guards there should be a fine and loss of XP equaling that of the XP gained (or XP lost by the when the other player was killed). Also, once the penalty has been paid and the "murderer" flag is cleared, there needs to be a lingering effect. They may have paid for their crimes, but NPCs (and the faction at whole) should still see them as an ex-con and it needs to drop their rep/fame consideraly. Thus it limits the benefits one would normally gain by serving their faction well until they have regained the trust of their fellow countrymen.

Either way, the penalties need to be harsh enough so that the decision to become a criminal or betray your faction will not be one easily made. It needs to be harsh enough so only those players who truely wish to RP this role will take this path.

So, if the penalties are HARSH enough to limit griefing considerably, are you still opposed to same-faction PvP?
 
PvE all the way! Down with PvP!

Oh sorry, wrong thread...

<hangs his head in shame and slowly walks away, sulking like an Ogre denied a feast>

~ Jaraeth
 
Not a bad idea to have a server for it, but I wouldn't think it would be a great idea for all servers. There really hasn't been a system that would make it realistic as opposed to penalties. aAot of PvPers that want this kind of system just want to gank lowbies, and wouldn't use it in a RP sence. You end up getting the bottom of the barrel in terms of community.
 
Originally posted by Morneblade@May 19 2006, 08:56 PM
Not a bad idea to have a server for it, but I wouldn't think it would be a great idea for all servers. There really hasn't been a system that would make it realistic as opposed to penalties. aAot of PvPers that want this kind of system just want to gank lowbies, and wouldn't use it in a RP sence. You end up getting the bottom of the barrel in terms of community.
I agree with this. Though I may jokingly and seriously swear by non-PvP, the reason is because of my experience with griefers.

I do not find it amusing to be griefed, at a higher level, I find no fun in griefing those below me; never have, never will. Others do. Though this may disturb me, I understand some of the reasoning behind it.

1. Thieves/Criminals & RP. Some folks like to read books or dream about being the thief in a dark alley waiting for the next person to run by, jump out and slit his throat, grab the persons coin purse and make a run for it. Some may want to play the part of Robin Hood, stealing from the rich to feed the poor. They want to roleplay someone with no sense of justice, but their own, perhaps with a bitter history of the characters growth as a child, or adult.

2. Non-RP "for the hell of it". Most folks of this class want titles, coin, items or other rewards of some sort. WoW is a good case in point. There is no benefit of killing this way other than to gain something. These people don't RP, though I've heard tale of "the challenge", but as I remind you, this is about griefing, there is no challenge in griefing. Some do it, just simply because there's nothing stopping them.

3. Now, on another level... you have those folks who appreciate PvP for what it *should* be... in my opinion. They use it to Roleplay. The person they stalk killed their parent, or previously stole from them. There is some reason. Perhaps they are the dirty beggar, or thief, but they tend to roleplay more. For example, a person that appreciates PvP and RP, will be the thief hiding in the shadows, but they'll jump out and attack the person (in RP style) holding the knife to the persons throat. This would allow the other person to interact through RP and counteract the thief or let themselves be injured.

The latter would be my choice, if I was on an PvP server. Give me a chance to RP my way out of it, or even still... let me opt out of PvP of my own free will. I feel there should be rules for pure all out PvP, otherwise, go play Halo or CounterStrike ... :P

Just my two copper...

~ Jaraeth
 
I like the idea of Criminal or Thief, but like Morne said, it could very easily be flawed.

If it could be implemented and work, AWSOME!
 
i appreciate PVP for the sheer challenge and feeling I get from winning. I'm very competitive and I need something to boost my ego every now and then. B)
 
Originally posted by Morneblade@May 20 2006, 03:56 AM
Not a bad idea to have a server for it, but I wouldn't think it would be a great idea for all servers. There really hasn't been a system that would make it realistic as opposed to penalties. aAot of PvPers that want this kind of system just want to gank lowbies, and wouldn't use it in a RP sence. You end up getting the bottom of the barrel in terms of community.
Aye, I'm all too aware of this as I've been griefed many times. Thus, I proposed some fairly harsh penalties. Harsh enough where the joy gained from griefing is severly hampered by the harsh penalties. Would one really sacrifice faction benifits, the reputation and fame (in game terms), not being able to enter cities, not being able to buy/sell to merchants, etc for the pure sake of griefing? Not to mention the double xp loss when they are hunted for bounty (double: by their death, and loss of the xp they gained from PK). Just the stacked up loss of xp alone would nearly prevent them from levling if they continued to grief.

Another option may be to actually lose xp when committing murder/treason against your own faction. Even if the penalty is so bad nobody every does it, it's the fact that you CAN do it. Choices...

Anyhow, at the very least, they should add an optional same-faction PvP flag one could toggle if they so choose.
 
Originally posted by Rics@May 20 2006, 03:36 AM
Not being able to "murder" or "betray" your own faction means no bounty, no criminal flag, no traitors.

Isn't your entire question over how easy it is to join/switch factions?

You want to "murder" or "betray" one faction? Well, you're then no longer a member of that faction. The whole if you not with us thing....

I mean you join a gang and pop a cap into one of yo gang bros and see how long they let you keep that free library pass all gang members get....
 
Originally posted by crisisfox+May 20 2006, 01:54 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (crisisfox @ May 20 2006, 01:54 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-Rics@May 20 2006, 03:36 AM
Not being able to "murder" or "betray" your own faction means no bounty, no criminal flag, no traitors.

Isn't your entire question over how easy it is to join/switch factions?

You want to "murder" or "betray" one faction? Well, you're then no longer a member of that faction. The whole if you not with us thing....

I mean you join a gang and pop a cap into one of yo gang bros and see how long they let you keep that free library pass all gang members get.... [/b][/quote]
Well, yes, I understand that. To a certain extend you will be outlawed and looked down upon by your faction. Take WoW for example...Horde VS Alliance. If an Alliance would be allowed to kill other Alliance they would quickly become an outcast, but that would not automatically make them Horde. While they alienate themselves from their faction they are also still an enemy of the Horde.

Basically, there should be killing allowed outside of war. You shouldn't only be allowed to kill the enemy, but have a choice. All of this is considering that there are Race/Faction/Kingdom wars in HJ.

So yeah, they'd be an outcast from their faction and it'd be a silly thing to do, since their only allies would be other criminals and outcasts...but the point is to give them a choice. Let people's reasons behind it be their own regardless of how stupid it would be.
 
I think you should be able to kill whoever you want, but there should be some consequences for your actions if you kill unjustly. B)

We know so little about the PvP system at this time. :(
 
Originally posted by Rics@May 20 2006, 04:17 PM
Basically, there should be killing allowed outside of war. You shouldn't only be allowed to kill the enemy, but have a choice. All of this is considering that there are Race/Faction/Kingdom wars in HJ.
Allow people not to join a faction = your problem solved?

I am all fine with people taking pot shots off the fence.

Some days we call them hired guns, mostly they're called by-standers.
 
That's an interesting idea. I like the idea of being able to join whatever "Political" faction you want. In one video, it said there are actually 4 total Factions. 1 for each focus: Arcanum, Nature, Gear. Then the Triumvirate which focuses on balance between all three forces. So maybe the Triumvirate will be able to PvP any of the other factions?

Maybe I'm babbling.
 
I like the idea but as others have said griefers ruin it in the long run. Heck they could even ruin your system by simply entering towns and getting all the npc's attacking them. Then when you come back to town after doing whatever you find your friendly NPCs out in the middle of the wilderness staring at nothing.

Heh...this is an example off how it happened in EQ...though most times it was when I was talking to someone for a quest so they ran off and I had to grind the quest ALL over again...bummer :(

I do like the idea of "murders" after all isn't that what all adventuers are? The villian is just attacking people other then monsters all the time. Problem is we don't want to be the person that gets the axe...literally.
 
Originally posted by Ikiru@May 20 2006, 10:04 PM
I like the idea but as others have said griefers ruin it in the long run. Heck they could even ruin your system by simply entering towns and getting all the npc's attacking them. Then when you come back to town after doing whatever you find your friendly NPCs out in the middle of the wilderness staring at nothing.

Heh...this is an example off how it happened in EQ...though most times it was when I was talking to someone for a quest so they ran off and I had to grind the quest ALL over again...bummer :(
I know people keep bringing up the whole "griefer" thing, and that's why I keep suggesting ideas to get rid of that. Example: I state that perhaps same-faction PKing could result in exp loss. Maybe the lower the level of PC you kill the more exp you lose. How could someone continue to grief when it would cause them to reverse level? Or why would they? We've all seen griefing in MMOs of the past, but in those MMO was there ever any real penalty for PKing? No, not really.

And all those EQ NPCs that chase the bad men...well, we can blame that on EQ for a bad system :smiley:

Anyhow, my question to everyone now is "How can something like this work". I already know all the reasons why it can't work, but I want to know things we can do that could possibly make it work. And I'm also not against having this on specified servers either. So, if anyone has some suggesting on what they could implement, or penalties they could apply that could make it work decently, share them :smiley:

My thought for what Ikiru mention about NPCs going agro on PC criminal was to perhaps have spawnable guards, or garrisoned guards that would come out. HJ will need to look into this issue even without same-faction PvP, since NPCs will need to protect agaist opposite factions as well.
 
Originally posted by Rics@May 21 2006, 08:22 AM

I know people keep bringing up the whole "griefer" thing, and that's why I keep suggesting ideas to get rid of that. Example: I state that perhaps same-faction PKing could result in exp loss. Maybe the lower the level of PC you kill the more exp you lose. How could someone continue to grief when it would cause them to reverse level? Or why would they? We've all seen griefing in MMOs of the past, but in those MMO was there ever any real penalty for PKing? No, not really.

If there were going to be sever penalties for killing those of the same faction (and I agree they should be VERY harsh) I would guess that the vast majority of those that enjoy that sort of thing would be very much against those penalties. My experience is that most of those guys just want to gank and grief people. The vast minority actually do it for RP, or other reasons. Most are just online bullies. While I agree it needs to make your life very difficult if you choose that route, most people that choose that route would bitch and cry constantly. Certainly it's not going to go over well with the majority of the players (those that do not want PvP at all). Maybe have a dedicated PvP/RP server for it, that allows for Roleplayers to be "bandits" and such.
 
hmm Seeing how PvP is not a large part of this game, and a GM can correct me on that, I'm going to guess that there are no "factions" like in WoW or EQ2. From what I've gathered from archiving gm posts and articles, factions in this game are like in EQ bestiary, in that killing a NPC/mob would gain you poor faction with them.

I'm also going to guess that pvp happens between player groups when it is initiated by both parties. A lot like most MUDs are set up, ime.

I.E. Jolin, a great house of Blahblah might issue an At War command to Tallyville, a large guild based 20 miles from Jolin's homelands. For a set number of days they are kos to each other.

Not an elaborate example but should be clear the difference btwn a lot of MUD styles and today's cloned mmorpg's.

If not... then I'll put some thought into your nifty system, Rics.
 
There will be factions in HJ. However, if they will be the traditional type factions, where you must gain reputation with a particular faction I am not wholly positive of.

We know for a fact, from various Simu posts on their forums, and elsewhere, that there will be three known factions: Gear, Arcanum & Nature. According to an E3 video, it's heard from a supposed Simu representative explaining the game in the background, that the Triumvirate which oversees the three factions may also be considered another faction.

I've heard tales from source at Simu's own forums, long long ago, that there will be unease among the three major factions, and that Great Houses (at least) will be required to pick a faction's side upon forming. However, details as to verifying all this, are sketchy and hard to come by... and thus far I don't recall a GM verifying any of the info we've gleaned except that there will be three major factions.

It's just a matter of speculation as to whether there will be faction PvP or faction related "wars" per se. I'm still waiting to know how PvP, Factions and Clans/Guilds/Great Houses all tie in together and into HJ.

~ Jaraeth
 
Kinda /bumping this back on the first page, I tihnk it's a good topic.

Rics, I know that what you are looking for is a concept of PvP that would be including on all servers, and not just assigned "PvP" servers. And the question that you are posing is trying to find a solution that would work. After thinking about this for a bit my conclusion is:

There isn't one.

PvP is just a concept that most MMO players do not want, in any respect. PvPers will say this is not true of course, but when you look at how well open PvP games do (and it easy to see they dont do well) or even dedcated servers in otherwise non-open PvP games (EQ, DaoC) they dont hold many people. Now it can be said that it's because they had a "bad" system. Well, I guess they all have "bad" systems then, and if that is the case then why can't they come up with a good system? Some of these devs have come up with good ideas in other aspects of gameplay. So why not PvP?

It might be because there isn't one. And I think that the major reason for it is because MMO's deal with people. And people well, can be real scum, especially if there isn't going to be any real reprocussions for what they do. So, I don't think you can assign something like this to every server, it would most likely kill the game.
 
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