Politics Same-sex Marriages (¡DOS!)

in seventh grade, my "best friends" spread a rumor that i was a lesbian. people freaked out. i live in a very christian, conservative town, and i lost a lot of friends. it really changed my perspective on everything. in eighth grade, i realised i was bisexual, but i was immediately at peace with it, because of what i had been through. i suppose because of the way everyone treated me i am much more open. i just now realise how hard it is and how awful it is when people treat you differently just because you are gay (or because they think you are, like in my case.) so in my opinion, gay marriages are fine. it's none of my business anyway.

m-c
 
what a very libertarian philosphy. does that mean police men can't tell bank robbers not to rob banks, and the goverment shouldn't make us pay tax because its not there money?
 
noggi16 said:
what a very libertarian philosphy. does that mean police men can't tell bank robbers not to rob banks, and the goverment shouldn't make us pay tax because its not there money?
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That's just being difficult, and you're missing the point.

What she's saying is that if you're going to do something then you have little right to tell others not to. If straights can marry they have little right to tell gays not to.

Just like if someone's parent smokes and the parent tells their child repeatedly that they're not allowed to smoke, it's not good for them. It's hypocritical to sit there puffing away, and then saying it's bad for their child to do it, but it's okay for them to.

I know that's not a good example, but I'm sick and about to leave for work, so that's all I could come up with...I think it kinda works though :blush:
 
No, I was simply illustrating that every action has a consequence for society, thats why people have an influence on this decision not matter what there sexaulity.
 
noggi16 said:
  what a very libertarian philosphy. does that mean police men can't tell bank robbers not to rob banks, and the goverment shouldn't make us pay tax because its not there money?
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But there is a very important difference! Robbers are not allow to rob banks, because that money isn't theirs, they are stealing from other people. People have to pay taxes because that money is needed to get everything going in a country (like road building, public health, army,...)
My point is, those rules are there for a very clear reason.
Now what is the reason for not allowing same-sex marriage? What would be the bad result if it was allowed?
 
Well, here in MA same sex marriage has been legal here for over a year and nothing has changed. Nothing The state is still functioning, just like the provinces in Canada that legally recognize gay marriage are still standing.

Let's take into accoun thatt for the past few decades some gay couples have been living together and adopting and rasiing children as a family. The difference is a married heterosexual couple with children have more rights then the gay couple and their family simply because a legal union bonding two individuals together in the eyes of the US government otherwise known as marriage does not apply to the gay couple.

As someone in this thread has said before legalizing gay marriage is the last frontier for marriage and possibly civil rights. A lot (not all) of the same people who are against same sex marriage are the same ones who were against interracial marriage here in AMERICA. In 1967 the Supreme Court stepped in and ruled that banning interracial marriage was unconstitutional and frankly, I agree. Just like gay marriage the majority of the country were strongly against interracial marriage. Since then this country has become more racially diverse and a lot of today's children and parents are becoming more tolerant and accepting because of it. Personally, I don't view this as a "consequence" for American society.

Of course, I know that I feel this way because I am a minority in this country and I cannot understand why a gay woman or man should have less rights than myself because we're both in the minority in this country. I can get married on a whim and then quickly have it anulled (Britney spears and Nicky Hilton anyone??) while gays have to fight to just have the right to marry and have that mariage be legally recognized by their government. How is this fair, and how is it right?
 
:whistle:

Same-sex marriage bill passes Commons vote
CTV.ca News Staff

Members of Parliament have passed a divisive and contentious bill, putting Canada one step closer to becoming just the third country in the world to sanction same-sex marriage.

After years of debate, the House of Commons put Bill C-38 to a vote after its third and final reading late Tuesday night.

With the Liberals enjoying the support of almost all the Bloc Quebecois and NDP MPs, the legislation passed easily in a 158 to 133 vote.

Now, it will take Senate approval and royal assent to make Canada the third country in the world, after the Netherlands and Belgium, to officially recognize same-sex marriage.

"(This) is about the Charter of Rights,'' Prime Minister Paul Martin said before the vote was cast Tuesday.

"We are a nation of minorities. And in a nation of minorities, it is important that you don't cherry-pick rights. A right is a right and that is what this vote tonight is all about."

But in the final hours before the vote Tuesday, the legislation continued to divide Martin's Liberal minority.

In a surprise announcement, Ontario MP Joe Comuzzi said he had to leave his cabinet post and vote against the government on the issue.

When asked about his decision, Comuzzi told CTV's Canada AM the announcement may have been last-minute, but his mind was made up long ago -- in accordance with the wishes of his constituents.

"I confirmed it through town hall meetings," the former minister of state for economic development in northern Ontario said in an interview from Ottawa early Wednesday.

"After I confirmed that was going to be the case, because I was in cabinet, I had to keep that secret until yesterday."

Backbench Liberal MPs were free to vote their conscience, but cabinet ministers were under orders to vote in favour of the bill.

About three dozen Liberal MPs voted against the legislation that legalizes same-sex civic marriages at public venues like city halls and courthouses. Religious groups still have the right of refusal to sanctify same-sex marriages.

MPs' approval of the law marks the culmination of a long and divisive debate, with fierce opposition coming from the official Opposition, religious groups, and even members of the government's own ranks.

But the arguments appear far from over.

"(This) is effectively exposing people of faith to persecution and prosecution," president of the Canada Family Action Coalition Charles McVety said in reaction to the vote Tuesday night.

"I want to make it very clear today that this is the beginning of the formal fight against the definition of marriage."

Conservative Leader Stephen Harper, meanwhile, is promising that he won't let the issue rest. He says he'll bring back the same-sex marriage law for another vote if he becomes prime minister.

"There will be a chance to revisit this in a future Parliament," Harper said. "Our intention is to have a free vote."

He also repeated his claim that the law lacks legitimacy because it passed with the support of the separatist Bloc party.

"I don't think Canadians are going to accept as a final word a decision taken by only a minority of federalist MPs," he said. But Harper didn't specify how he would address the issue if the Tories were to form the next government.

Liberal Justice Minister Irwin Cotler said Harper is going to have to come clean and acknowledge that he would have to invoke the Constitution's notwithstanding clause to override the new law.

"They're going to have to acknowledge that they want to override the (Charter of Rights); override constitutional-law decisions in nine jurisdictions in this country; override a unanimous decision of the Supreme Court of Canada; override the rule of law in this country," Cotler said.

The clause is available to provinces to override federal laws that intrude on provincial jurisdiction.

But almost every provincial and territorial government has legalized same-sex marriage; and the new legislation will ensure that four "hold-out" jurisdictions -- Alberta, Prince Edward Island, Nunavut and the Northwest Territories -- must now strike down their traditional marriage laws.

"It's an historic moment, it's about equality for gays and lesbians," said NDP MP Libby Davies.

Alberta Premier Ralph Klein, who's "strongly opposed" to the bill on moral grounds, once threatened to invoke the Constitution's notwithstanding clause to maintain the traditional definition of marriage in his province.

In light of the vote, however, he acknowledged little can be done to stop same-sex marriages in his province now.

"Since this is federal legislation, to use the notwithstanding clause as contained in our own Marriage Act would be frivolous," Klein told reporters in Calgary. "It wouldn't stand up in any court of law. So there are some other options that we would have to consider."

Although some members of his caucus are threatening to use everything at their disposal to get around the legislation, Klein said "there are no legal weapons; there's nothing left in the arsenal."

After the same-sex vote was put to bed Tuesday night, the House immediately adjourned for the summer.

MPs won't meet again until Sept. 26.

With reports from CTV News

YAY for Canada! ^_^ ;)
--Mandy :angelic:
 
Yay for Canada! :groupwave:

That makes three countries where same-sex marriages are allowed. Three and counting? Does anybody know if there are other countries where this could happen sometime soon?
 
Go Canada!!! It looks good that same-sex marriage will be allowed in all of Canada. And what rocks is that I'll be Canada in like 3 days, so I will feel somewhat more equal. I just hope that same-sex marriage will become legal in more countries.
 
AliasHombre said:
It has been legalized in all of scandanavia, and has been a failure.
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Just like heterosexual marriage has been a great success here in the states :rolleyes: Thanks to reality television, the divorce rate, the city of Las Vegas and various celebrities, heterosexual marriage seems to failing in this country.
 
sugababyboo said:
Just like heterosexual marriage has been a great success here in the states :rolleyes: Thanks to reality television, the divorce rate, the city of Las Vegas and various celebrities, heterosexual marriage seems to failing in this country.
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Exactly. The heterosexual divorce rate in America is just over 40% (like 43% or something). That's not really something to brag about.

And actually the problems in Scandinavia with marriage have been greatly exaggerated by people who are against gay marriage in this country...as this article points out.

Prenuptial Jitters
Did gay marriage destroy heterosexual marriage in Scandinavia?
By M.V. Lee Badgett
Posted Thursday, May 20, 2004, at 1:28 PM PT


This week, Massachusetts began handing out marriage licenses to same-sex couples. Amid the cheers, there are the doomsayers who predict that same-sex weddings will mean the end of civilization as we know it. Conservative religious leader James Dobson warns that Massachusetts is issuing "death certificates for the institution of marriage." And conservative pundit Stanley Kurtz claims to have found the "proof" that the institution will see its demise: Gay marriage helped to kill heterosexual marriage in Scandinavia. Indeed, Kurtz has become a key figure in the marriage debate: He and his statistics have been taken up by conservatives to support their argument that gay unions threaten heterosexual marriage. He has shown up in Congressional hearings, lawsuit filings, newspapers, debates, and anti-gay marriage videos across the country.

But Kurtz's smoking gun is really just smoke and mirrors. Reports of the death of marriage in Scandinavia are greatly exaggerated; giving gay couples the right to wed did not lead to massive matrimonial flight by heterosexuals.

Currently there are nine European countries that give marital rights to gay couples. In Scandinavia, Denmark (1989), Norway (1993), Sweden (1994), and Iceland (1996) pioneered a separate-and-not-quite-equal status for same-sex couples called "registered partnership." (When they register, same-sex couples receive most of the financial and legal rights of marriage, other than the right to marry in a state church and the right to adopt children.) Since 2001, the Netherlands and Belgium have opened marriage to same-sex couples.

Despite what Kurtz might say, the apocalypse has not yet arrived. In fact, the numbers show that heterosexual marriage looks pretty healthy in Scandinavia, where same-sex couples have had rights the longest. In Denmark, for example, the marriage rate had been declining for a half-century but turned around in the early 1980s. After the 1989 passage of the registered-partner law, the marriage rate continued to climb; Danish heterosexual marriage rates are now the highest they've been since the early 1970's. And the most recent marriage rates in Sweden, Norway, and Iceland are all higher than the rates for the years before the partner laws were passed. Furthermore, in the 1990s, divorce rates in Scandinavia remained basically unchanged.

Of course, the good news about marriage rates is bad news for Kurtz's sky-is-falling argument. So, Kurtz instead focuses on the increasing tendency in Europe for couples to have children out of wedlock. Gay marriage, he argues, is a wedge that is prying marriage and parenthood apart.

The main evidence Kurtz points to is the increase in cohabitation rates among unmarried heterosexual couples and the increase in births to unmarried mothers. Roughly half of all children in Norway, Sweden, and Denmark are now born to unmarried parents. In Denmark, the number of cohabiting couples with children rose by 25 percent in the 1990s. From these statistics Kurtz concludes that " … married parenthood has become a minority phenomenon," and—surprise—he blames gay marriage.

But Kurtz's interpretation of the statistics is incorrect. Parenthood within marriage is still the norm—most cohabitating couples marry after they start having children. In Sweden, for instance, 70 percent of cohabiters wed after their first child is born. Indeed, in Scandinavia the majority of families with children are headed by married parents. In Denmark and Norway, roughly four out of five couples with children were married in 2003. In the Netherlands, a bit south of Scandinavia, 90 percent of heterosexual couples with kids are married.

Kurtz is also mistaken in maintaining that gay unions are to blame for changes in heterosexual marriage patterns. In truth, the shift occurred in the opposite direction: Changes in heterosexual marriage made the recognition of gay couples more likely. In my own recent study conducted in the Netherlands, I found that the nine countries with partnership laws had higher rates of unmarried cohabitation than other European and North American countries before passage of the partner-registration laws. In other words, high cohabitation rates came first, gay partnership laws followed.

A subtler version of Kurtz's argument states that the advent of registered partnership caused an increase in cohabitation rates and children born outside of marriage (nonmarital births). If that were true, then we would expect to see two patterns: Cohabitation rates and the nonmarital birth rate would rise more quickly within a country after it passed partner registration laws; and the rise in the nonmarital birth rate would be greater in countries that had such laws than in countries that do not recognize same-sex partnerships.

Kurtz's argument fails both tests. From 1970 to 1980, the Danish nonmarital birth rate tripled, from 11 percent to 33 percent. Over the next 10 years, it rose again to 46 percent and then stopped rising in 1990s after the passage of the 1989 partnership law. Norway's big surge occurred in the 1980's, with an increase from 16 percent to 39 percent. In the decade after Norway recognized same-sex couples (in 1993), the nonmarital birth rate first rose slightly, then, after a couple of years, leveled off at 50 percent.

Cohabitation rates tell a similar story. In Denmark, from 1980 to 1989, the number of unmarried, cohabiting couples with children rose by 70 percent, but the same figure rose by only 28 percent from 1989 to 2000—the decade after Denmark introduced its partner-registration laws—and then stopped rising. From 2000 to 2004, the number has increased by a barely perceptible 0.3 percent. The fact that rates of cohabitation and nonmarital births either slowed down or completely stopped rising after the passage of partnership laws shows that the laws had no effect on heterosexual behavior.

Furthermore, the change in nonmarital births was exactly the same in countries with partnership laws as it was in countries without. The eight countries that recognized registered partners at some point in the decade from 1989 to 2000 saw an increase in the average nonmarital birth rate from 36 percent in 1991 to 44 percent in 2000, an eight percentage point increase. Among the EU countries that didn't recognize partners (plus Switzerland), the average rate of nonmarital births rose from 15 percent to 23 percent—also an eight-point increase.

No matter how you slice the demographic data, rates of nonmarital births and cohabitation do not increase as a result of the passage of laws that give same-sex partners the right to registered partnership. To put it simply: Giving gay couples rights does not inexplicably cause heterosexuals to flee marriage, as Kurtz would have us believe. Looking at the long-term statistical trends, it seems clear that the changes in heterosexuals' marriage and parenting decisions would have occurred anyway, even in the absence of gay marriage.

And all the conservative hand-wringing seems especially unnecessary when you consider the various incentives that encourage American heterosexual couples to marry. By marrying, U.S. couples obtain health-insurance coverage, pensions, and Social Security survivor benefits. Plus, in the United States we are required by law to be financially responsible for our spouses in bad times, since we don't have Scandinavian-style welfare programs to fall back on.

In addition, American society already wrestles with the social tensions that Kurtz claims have occurred as a result of gay marriage in Scandinavia: deepening divisions over gay issues in churches, the increasing acceptance of lesbian and gay relationships in the media, and the occasional radical voice arguing for the abolition of marriage. Yet heterosexual couples keep getting married—more than 2 million of them every year.

Concerns about the impact of gay marriage on heterosexual behavior are not unique to the United States, of course. European countries that recognize same-sex couples initially had their worriers, too. Over time, however, it became clear that civilization and family life would survive the recognition of gay couples' rights. Even the conservative governments that came into power have not tried to repeal rights for gay couples in France and the Netherlands.

Both demographic data and common sense show that the dire predictions of Dobson and Kurtz are just cultural prenuptial jitters. Now that gay and lesbian couples are marrying in Massachusetts, we'll have a home-grown social experiment that will undoubtedly compare to that of Europe: Letting gay couples say "I do" does not lead to heterosexuals saying "I don't."
 
But there is a very important difference! Robbers are not allow to rob banks, because that money isn't theirs, they are stealing from other people. People have to pay taxes because that money is needed to get everything going in a country (like road building, public health, army,...)
My point is, those rules are there for a very clear reason.
Now what is the reason for not allowing same-sex marriage? What would be the bad result if it was allowed?

No thats not the case, I can think of loads of reasons why tax is immoral, just because they are there doesn't make them correct, my arguement is that something like legalisation of gay marriage affects society, thats how I am able to have an opinion.

And just because it works in some places doesn't make it right for everyone, cannabis is more accepted in Holland, yet we won't legalise it here, they have all day drinking in continental europe, but that would kill Britians work force here, we have enough people with drink problems.
 
Of course gay marriage will affect society just like how interracial marriage has in America. The results are, in my opinion positive. Today's children are more racially diverse (bi-racial, mulit-racial etc..) and there are more people who tolerant and accepting of people of different races and backgrounds. The people who were so against interracial marriage becoming legalized (Thanks to the Supreme Court) had to deal with it. Some moved on and accepted it while others remained bitter and angry. There are still people today who believe interracial marriage is wrong but they knoew that they can't do anything to change it and like gay marriage it will directly affect their lives. There is at least one person on this very board that is against interracial and gay marriage. However, this person lives in MA and must deal with being surrounded by both types of unions.

ETA:

I wanted to add this entry from margaret cho's blog about racism within the gay community. Personally, I'm on the same page as Margaret.

6/17/2005
Badlands

Badlands is an unfortunate yet appropriate name for a gay bar in San Francisco that is being cited for racial discrimination. It is alleged that the owner required African American patrons to show multiple forms of i.d. before being allowed entry, as well as having a dress code and employment policies that were equally prejudiced. The Board of Supervisors have voted unanimously to take action against Les Natali, the owner of Badlands and it is likely that the bar's liquor license will be revoked.

Even in politically aware San Francisco, racism exists, which is sad and sucky, because it is one of those places people flock to in order to escape hatred, prejudice, ignorance. But what bugs me so much isn't just that it happened in San Francisco, but that it is a gay establishment with a racist policy. If anyone can understand exclusion, it should be the gay community. With the Bush Administration using the platform of denying gay and lesbian couples the right to equal status in marriage as a way to win the election, homosexuality is constantly under fire. How does anyone survive it and continue to fight for change? If you do manage to survive it, how do you then manage to lack empathy for all other oppressed minorities?

Whenever I encounter racism within the gay community, I am immediately embarrassed, and I want to erase the incident from my mind as soon as possible. I don't want to think about it, I don't want to make it into an anecdote, I want to forget that I saw it and absorb it whole into my psyche as if I could prevent it from spreading further into the world. We have enough to deal with battling the ignorance that still threatens our community and allows the government to treat us like second class citizens without having to examine the grave faultiness that exists within our own ranks.

When I see homophobia expressed within other communities, ones I believe should know better, I am equally embarrassed and inclined to suck the incident inside myself - breathe in the suffering and breathe out compassion, but it's hard. A conservative African American minister was quoted at a recent anti-gay marriage rally, warning the gay community not to confuse gay marriage with civil rights. "Don't make your sin about our skin!" That sickens me, because I honor the struggle of African Americans in this country. I know their freedom was hard won and the bitterness and pain it took to win it is too fresh in our collective memory to be taken lightly. Yet to compare it to the struggle of gay and lesbian Americans to share in equal rights and seek acceptance in this country does not in any way lessen the achievements of the Civil Rights Movement. Looking to our history and forming bonds between those who have overcome oppression and those who face it head on now is important and needed if we wish to evolve into a nation of understanding.

Don't we want to be a good land, as opposed to a bad one?
 
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