I don't believe even half of any so-called documentary. I barely believe the news anymore. Its all so slanted to agendas.
As for aliens already here who can really say absolutely. But then who can dispute a walking, talking rock if enough people try to justify it? One thing that TV shows are good at is twisting something mundane into a question. Its done all the time anymore. If we were to search the globe, evidence of that walking, talking rock could also be found. Combined with "eyewitness" accounts, fragmented scientist comments and blurry photos and recordings a great deal of "evidence" can justify anything.
Here's the kicker - I fully believe that there are far superior alien cultures in the galaxy let alone the entire Universe. I just don't believe for one second that they have been here, are here or about to come here. It just doesn't make sense to me.
The elements found on and in Earth are more abundant all through the Galaxy.
Life, while we have no proof it is elsewhere, the building blocks of life are abundant as well.
Human qualities are not so special that it would warrant a special visit. Especially from an alien that is able to cross the vast distances involved.
Slavery of the human race is unacceptable because a culture that can do the things required to make the trip can certainly do anything a slave could do. And much more efficiently.
Chances are that an alien culture able to cross the distances and actually come here are harnessing the power of their star or greater. We can't even harness the power in our own planet yet.
It's more likely that what we call aliens is nothing more than the inhabitants of a future Earth that has developed time travel. That scenario justifies most of the alien evidence if not all of it. It also explains the reported behaviour and experiences of the so-called abducted. It justifies the ancient astronauts, the Gods of history and the archeologic finds.
Imagine if you can, a culture that was forced underground for a millenia or more. A human culture.
What could happen to the human body under restrictive evolutionary conditions. What would happen to our eyes if the light was diminished over long time periods. If our bodies were exposed to certain chemicals and radiations changing our pigment to grey. Over time we would advance technologically and lack of strenuous work would diminish our muscle mass causing us to have whispy frail bodies with large heads and big black eyes. Perhaps a multitude of genetic mutations could occur.
After a vast amount of time, scientists may unlock the time-travel secrets and missions might be sent back to recover "clean" genetic code. Not only to repair our own mutated code but perhaps to repopulate many species.
There are so many scenarios that point to aliens as us, travelling in time, that to ignore that possibility is tantamount to the type of selective thinking that makes us believe they are really aliens.
Is there ever any news about ET abducting plantlife? Its life? Perhaps there isn't news because abducted plants can't really be sensationalized? What about a worm? Worms are alive...so are gazelles, elephants, bacteria and viruses. Aliens come all this way and only want humans? Not chimpanzees or apes or dolphins or eagles, Just humans. Oh, and cattle. LOL I guess they like beef? They are not hacking our supercomputers or abducting advanced weapons. The are not siphoning off our oceans or atmosphere.
I also refuse to believe aliens are teaching, training, developing or evolving us. They are not trickling technology to us. That is even sillier than the idea that they are abducting us for tests.
There is no justifiable reason why an advanced alien culture would hesitate to make themselves known. That pretense is based entirely on a human concept and aliens will not be human in any way.
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Kevin said: ↑
So thoughts on what mankind would do if/when it turns out someday that while exploring space we are the aliens?
Does this imply we find sentient life that is less advanced than us or any life?
If we find life that is not sentient I believe we will take samples and do studies. We will imprison some specimens for behavioral studies and sample some for food source. We will dissect, contaminate and dilute the entire biosphere. We will destroy to understand.
If the life is sentient and civilized we will still imprison, dissect and sample as a food source. I doubt we will hide from them. We may not divulge our technological secrets but we will attempt to learn their systems and understand their motives. We will study their science, their philosophy and their communities. We will use our advanced science to appear as Gods among them and control their impression of us. We might teach them our communication or show them how to better their lives with better crops and food production. I doubt we would show them any technology that could hurt us. We will not give them the secrets of the atom. If they have technology that can hurt us we will subdue them ASAP.
The kick in the teeth will come when the superior to us aliens, that have been farming that world comes to annihilate us.
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AlienView said: ↑
Why be so negative about aliens?
Not negative about aliens, negative about human Godhood. If we ever find ourselves superior over an alien culture we will be controlling and brutal. Karma would dictate that we would face something superior to us eventually that will smack us back to our place in things.
AlienView said: ↑
Human creativity and art
Our redeeming quality unless those qualities are common in the Universe. However, even if they are not common they may not be desirable. The Universe may not appreciate creativity and art. The Universe may only acknowledge Order from Chaos and direct, undeviating paths to knowledge. Creativity and art may be the embrace of Chaos. Since Chaos is rampant in the Universe only discipline and decisiveness may rule. Just because we value something doesn't mean an alien culture will.
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AlienView said: ↑
I can see a universe
Um, Sorry... We are both in THE Universe. One of mankind's biggest delusions is that we are somehow outside the Universe looking in. Everything everyone can know, dream or fantasize is IN THE UNIVERSE. Yes, That means The Universe thinks, dreams and knows. At our level of consciousness we are unable to fathom the Universe's level of awareness but perhaps that is not so for aliens species that have developed for a million or 100 million years. Its a tough concept to grasp and most people can't even go there but with some discipline we can touch the edge.
AlienView said: ↑
universe that is all creativity and art
Creativity is something different than art. Creativity is all around us. From atoms to galactic super-clusters. Art is a concept that is rooted in our perceptions and associations. Art is a learned appreciation. If we put the whole concept of art to the entire spectrum of life as we know it. Art is not a common thing. You can teach a chimp to paint a picture. You can teach it to look at the picture and enjoy it. What chimp, in the wild paints pictures, makes music that is repeatable, sculptures their parents likeness out of river mud? That is just a chimp, What about the other billion or so life forms that are on our planet? What kind of pencil sketches make worms take notice? Do the trees get excited over the sunset colors? Which termite mound is a sculpture of their God? Do birds sing for the same reason as humans create music? My point is that just because we perceive art in nature doesn't mean it was intended as art.
Tom said: ↑
The Universe may not appreciate creativity and art.
In the essence of we being part of the Universe it does, because we do. I should have wrote 'Aliens may not appreciate creativity and art'. Creativity is such a common thing in the Universe an alien mindset may not even acknowledge its existence. If it does, It might not place as much value on it as we do. It's possible aliens may not be able to perceive beauty. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, Aliens may not have a need for eyes as we understand them. Perhaps they appreciate patterns or as a beauty to behold, the absence of patterns.
AlienView said: ↑
according to law
Funny thing about law, Its not a law unless it is agreed upon by all concerning parties. A natural law is one that supposedly cannot be broken in all the Universe so if it is breakable it is not a law. I give you Black Holes. If known natural laws can be broken within a Black Hole then the known natural laws are not really laws but suppositions. We are like infants compared to the age of the Universe and possible alien intelligences. Place 2 million of our years against hundreds of millions or even billions of years and you realize that what we think we know is far, far less that what we don't know. To assume that humans have it all figured out is our own delusion.
AlienView said: ↑
difficulty accepting
We all have difficulty accepting. We have programmed our thinking with bounding boxes. To think outside the common delusions is considered insanity. At our level of development perhaps it is insanity. It's a hard discipline to even attempt to fathom reality.
AlienView said: ↑
Science sees patterns
Science sees patterns but only in a conservative way. Chaos itself can be a pattern depending on the scope of the comparison. Point geometric is one example I like that shows chaos in a pattern. You take a point (A true point) and radiate lines out from it on all sides perpendicular from the point. We see a star. We see only a finite number of trajectories possible but we can split each arc in half and add another trajectory based on that. Not only around the circumference but around the entire sphere. Given enough distance, every arc is divisible no matter how close they are at the point. Now, This will blow your mind, add a true point directly beside the first and do the same thing. Then fill all the space in the known universe with points with the same radial lines. This already exists. If this was beheld/observed it might look like chaos, it would be chaos but it is also a predictable pattern. To give you some insight on this concept imagine a single atom. The space within every atom is sparse compared to a true point. The components of atoms are made up of structures such as neutrinos, quarks, muons and the like. Within the scope of each of those components lies even more true points. Even the elusive boson is composed of true points. And that is still only a scientific observation made by a species less than 2 million years in the making.
The first law of thermodynamics, states that the energy of a closed system must remain constant—it can neither increase nor decrease without interference from outside. The universe itself is a closed system, so the total amount of energy in existence has always been the same. The forms that energy takes, however, are constantly changing.
Everything in nature everywhere is comprised of energy. It is the ... GOD ...of the natural world. It takes many forms but it persists and has been around for MORE than 14 Billion years. It has never dissipated or grown. My feeble mind quantifies energy on the same level as the radius of a true point.
Not to be confused with the quantum concept of Zero Point Energy. The quantum world comprises the uncertainty of nature. Quantum dynamics opens paths of dialog that I am currently unwilling to discuss due to the limitations of this topic's parameters. Not to dismiss an alien's possible understanding of quantum science but because it requires more in-depth discussion than would be appropriate for this topic.
Vacuum Energy is also a very interesting topic in itself. It basically destroys the first law of thermodynamics. Stating that energy is constantly being created and destroyed in the Universe.
The reason I expound on the things I do in this topic is that we need to realize that an alien culture that is even slightly more advanced than us might already know our fundamental laws of nature are flawed. Sorta like the silly belief that the speed of light is a barrier. We already know of particles that can exceed that limitation, Neutrinos from an exploding supernova as one example. We know because we have observed them.
Imagine the dismay of our best scientists when an alien reveals proof of anything that goes beyond their concepts of the natural laws. It's not just the random Joe that aliens will affect. It will be humanity as a whole.
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I completely understand what you are saying and as philosophy goes it is wonderful to speculate. You however do not understand the one fundamental thing that few others understand. By imagining yourself outside the Universe you make it that much bigger. I will try to keep it short and simple.
1. We are all made up of elements that are in the Universe - Thus we are part of the Universe, not the entire Universe but part of it all the same.
2. When a distant star supernovas, even if we don't see it the supernova happened in the Universe. Every particle of carbon, wisp of gas and area of void is also part of the Universe.
3. Being inside the Universe, Every thought, dream, idea, language, work of art and feeling is part of the Universe. Everything that can be understood or imagined is in fact the Universe doing so.
It's a difficult concept to wrap your head around and humanity is bred to think otherwise. It still doesn't change the facts. Being within the Universe makes us the Universe. When we try to imagine ourselves outside the Universe the imagination that creates the reference is also inside the Universe. Thus the Universe expands By its imagination. The Universe is everything we are and more. Physical and meta-physical, spiritual and scientific. It all sources from within its boundaries. If any one boundary is pushed, its the Universe that pushes and any new ground that is had, whether it be solid or imagined, is engulfed by the Universe.
Many people think the Universe is only the 3d solid reality stuff like stars and planets but everything within its existence is within it. Including all those things that can't be quantified.
Here is something that I like to ponder, Its a What If?
What if humans are the only life form that thinks of itself as outside the Universe?
What if all other life, known & unknown, automatically knows what we dismiss?
What if an alien, a worm or a tree knows all the secrets of the Universe that we can't/won't see?
What if the unknown can be revealed by just removing the delusions we teach ourselves?
Granted it would be difficult, if not impossible, for some of us. Humanity breeds delusions into itself every generation. However, if you think about albinos and how that condition can manifest itself over generations and how many albinos are on this planet you can realize that clarity can also be manifest over generations.
Once the delusions start to fall, clarity begins to take shape. Since the delusions are a taught trait, reinforced by generations, that trait can be overcome.
This is but the tip of the iceberg of things that humanity is deluded about. Some alien culture that may visit us may not be deluded at all. Their ways and reasons may be so clear that we will not be able to cope because it breaks the delusions that we hold dear. Delusions we don't even know we have.
If someone strips a delusion from you it is scary to experience. A violation of your comfort zone. You respond to it as a threat, getting mad, sad or uneasy. Once the delusion is revealed and you understand that you were deluded you can exist in that clarity and you wonder how you deluded yourself in the first place.
The delusions that we experience are not all bad when considering humanity. Society, laws and commerce are all built on delusions that benefit our species. Rights give us balance and integrity. Ownership drives understanding and fuels expansion. Love & Hate dictate our path in sociability. Sociability creates unification. And So On...
The delusions make us who we are and what we will become. ON THIS PLANET.
Aliens may have different delusions or none at all.
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AlienView said: ↑
It is conceivable that what we perceive and define as the universe is all there is.
I once wrote a question to The School of Champions asking where the edge of the Universe is at. I included a question based on the observational theory that the Universe is expanding so Where is it expanding from? Where is the center?
They referred me to a long list of theoretical scientists and I actually contacted one of them by email.
The reply was simple:
"There is no edge, Refer to quantum physics. The center is everywhere, Refer to vacuum energy."
I tried to continue the discussion but never got another reply. So I researched what I was referred to and found out those simple answers he gave me were indeed true, Theoretically.
Now even though some scientists are world-renowned they are still only humans. Still stuck on this same planet as you and I. Still restricted by some delusions that are unbreakable at our present evolutionary point. In the past scientific facts are proven wrong by new scientific facts. To consider that we can know everything about anything is a delusion. We don't even understand ourselves and we have plenty of samples and many years of observation, not to mention an inside view.
If this discussion were slanted to explore the realm of science fiction I could understand the wish to explore such a point of view. But...This topic is intended to be a realistic exploration of the impact of an actual alien visit and how people would react in real life at such a revelation. My diversions are intended to open paths of thinking that justify some reactions of some people that are more reality inclined. The population masses would not be able to handle such an event but some individuals may embrace it. Some individuals may handle the extreme thinking that would result. I believe people that are science fiction oriented will have a better chance at remaining sane while hard core scientifically minded individuals will crack due to the destruction of their hard set laws and rationality. People of religious persuasion will become angry and want war or collapse into their own hell. There won't be many that will even try to understand the unknown. The Scifi mind will be open to possibilities that others can't or won't even consider. On top of all that...Everyone might be completely wrong and the reality may be something else entirely.
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AlienView said: ↑
Aliens are real and they have already made contact. I say MAYBE?
Since probability is rooted in Chaos and possibility is rooted in imagination I agree that anything is possible. Its even possible that aliens changed the human genome 2 million years ago to create sentience in us on purpose. I even think its probable that aliens contact us regularly with transmission methods that we can not yet fathom. It's probable that aliens do exist both more and less advanced than we are.
AlienView said: ↑
Want to see a close to proof that they have?
In today's world no video, audio or photo can ever be 'trusted' to be proof of anything. I personally am not interested in watching videos, especially videos that are slanted to an agenda to show proof. Just recently there was a big scandal about how the documentary syndicates were using statements from scientists to show proof while the scientists themselves admitted that their statements were taken out of context and were used as answers to questions the documentary team never asked them. Back when I 'was' watching the so called science & history channels I still had issue with the way they edited the documentaries. Even the animal nature shows were unbelievable for the statements that they made.
UFO Secrecy: First we must agree that UFO does not mean alien. UFO is Unidentified Flying Object. As for secrecy, it is likely that there are instances when something is seen in the sky and being unknown it is kept secret. Just because they are not sure what to call it. It could be ball lightning or a slow meteorite that doesn't burn up during atmospheric descent. Speculation runs rampant when something is unidentified but the key point that seems to be overlooked is that is Unidentified.
Free Energy: Free energy is already abundant. Free energy is not the monetary value of the energy. It is energy that needs no work to utilize. Your body uses free energy constantly. There is this big ball of fire in the sky that gives it to us everyday. We are standing on a huge source of free energy. The invention of a process to unlock the energy in an atom is not free. Even if fission and fusion energy were made portable it would require tremendous work to contain it in a useable container.
Tesla Technology: Tesla devised technology to capture and retransmit static energy. Energy that is produced by the normal physics of our planet. His greatest technology consisted of basically large capacitors and transmitters. Edison used electromagnetic repulsion and electromagnetic induction to create energy from magnetism. The reason we use Edison technology now is because it was a funding battle. Edison won. The fact that both technologies occurred during the same time-frame indicates that there was no supernatural influence.
Interstellar Travel: There is no way to prove that anything, even a rock, has traveled from star system to star system. Lets say you find a rock that you believe comes from another star system. It comes from the Centari System which is our closest system at only about 4.5 light years. The first thing you must prove is that it is NOT from Earth. To do that you must try to identify the components and verify that they are not known substances. For every substance that is found on Earth the probability of it being extra-terrestrial goes down. But you can't stop there. You must then identify substances that may be from our own Solar system. Since we don't have a library of all the substances within our own star system any unidentified substances make the probability increase while any known extra-terrestrial but known substances again make the probability go down. Then, you are left with unidentified substances that could be from another star system. Without having a library of known substances from other star systems it is improbable that you will be able to identify them. At this point the source of that rock is pure speculation.
I know, you say there is carbon dating and radiation signatures. Proof of the radiation signatures and dating only proves the radiation signatures and age of the rock. Not its journey.
Can you prove I traveled to Washington DC and back? Unless I bring back something that is known to only exist in Washington DC the only thing you can really do is speculate. I can 'say' I went there but really I stopped off in Norfolk, Virginia and never landed foot in Washington DC. I can drive around the block to rack up mileage on my car, I can stay out of sight for the time period needed.
As for space debris that might fall to Earth from another star system even that is unlikely. Sure it has probably happened and will probably happen again but can it be proven? Our star has what is called a heliopause and a shock boundary. Think of it as turgor pressure in a plant cell or you own internal pressure that lets you cope with Earth's atmospheric pressure. Only objects with enough mass can pass thru the boundary. Once they do they are deflected by all sources of gravity encountered during its long journey to our planet surface.
If, keyword, IF, we had a craft that was supposedly from another star system and could study it using today's forensic methods the best we could do would be to confirm it is not from our planet. Even if there were references to star charts and trajectories found within. Even if we found unidentified materials. Without a comparison proof to judge by it's origin is still only speculation.
Anti-gravity Propulsion:
There is a flaw in the very description of this term. Gravity exists everywhere. Our astronauts in space are not in an environment that is free of gravity, they are in micro-gravity. Gravity is even at the the particle scale in atoms. Anti-gravity refers to something opposite of gravity. It is not referring to overcoming micro-gravity. Anti-matter is the opposite of matter.
Overcoming gravity is common. We can do it with a ball. Magnetic repulsion levitates and propels our trains. Our space probes are propelled by gravity but not the absence or opposite of it. Its called gravitational assist.
I am not saying Anti-Gravity is not possible, just improbable. The recently discovered Boson is thought to have a force in the Universe that keeps matter from flying apart (Bose-Einstein Condensate). If the secrets to the Boson were unlocked and could be harnessed into a tool then it could produce something that could negate the affects of gravity. As it is, we need a super-collider just to prove it exists. If we had a craft to study we could not prove that it is/was propelled by so-called anti-gravity. Even if a craft did use anti-gravity as propulsion it would need a gravity field within it to negate the affects on the occupants and the materials needed to maintain the outer field. This would require the ability to create gravity at the atomic level inside an area of anti-gravity. Any matter within the affect of the anti-matter field would fly apart at the atomic/sub-atomic level.
AlienView said: ↑
reputable persons from the military
LOL, Show me one reputable person from this planet! Show me anyone that can think in reality without being jaded by any delusions. Just one person that has factual witnessed knowledge of all things possible. A person that is not influenced by others, their own belief system or the misconceptions of ignorance.
I don't care what title they wear, who praises them or how powerful they think they are - everyone (except infants) are jaded by social interactions and ideas, deluded in one way or the other.
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This is but a sample of the discussions that can be found at CoolSciFi.
https://coolscifi.com/
Sure there are many bigger more elaborate communities like Bad Astronomy and the like but this is where I hang my hat.
One of the Cool things at CoolSciFi is that you don't have to be a member to view the site. I know you are very busy. I know you exist in the pursuit of hard scientific knowledge. I only ask that you consider the minds of everyday dreamers for potential ideas on how to extend your knowledge.
I seriously value your contribution to making science understandable to the regular person.
Not only are you fun to watch you are enlightening.
Keep up the great work and never, never lose your focus.
Tom
