Simutronics: Good?

[Shadow001]

Maybe. But potentially not..

I've been a subscriber of a Simutronics product, Gemstone IV, on and off since 1994. Based on my experiences with the company, I've got a wide range of questions regarding whether or not they have what it takes to be successful with HJ.

I think it's safe to say we all agree that the game's framework is beyond acceptable (why would any of us be here, hyping up a game that's not given us anything but lore, screenshots, and limited footage of actual gameplay if we didn't see potential?) But what do we have as evidence that this game is going to produce a gameplay enviornment that will be worth investing time into?

Nothing, really. Most of us are optimistic but my expectations aren't that high. Is this negativity or pessimism speaking? Possibly, but like I said, I've been a Simu customer for a long time, and I may have a different perspective from those who haven't played one of their games. Again, the preliminary screenshots and E3 footage looks superb, but I feel like this should be taken with a grain of salt: For one thing, WHY is the game taking so long? I was originally told (by way of an anonomous developer) to expect a beta release in February..it's now more than 6 months later and still we have not even an expected beta timeframe. Was Simutronics more concerned with licensing HeroEngine, or do they really care about getting the game out?

I have a lot yet to say, but I'll hold off for now.

 

[frostydf2]

You always have to wonder when a game developer focus's more on their selling of licenses then the actual game. They release few screenshots, few movies, few gameplay incentives. In fact, if you think about it, with this game being in its 7th year of development, we still hardly know anything about the game. It does worry me with the recent cancelations of many MMO's if HJ will even make it.

Hopefully we can get some re-assurance form the staff of Simutronics as to where they actually plan on taking this game. Do they plan on promoting it, or just hoping by word of mouth for it to become popular?

 

[Daax]

I'm not listening!!!! LA LA LA LA LA!!!!!

 

[Thaos Nightwind]

I'm not listening!!!! LA LA LA LA LA!!!!!

*covers ears with Daax* can't sing though

Oh alright. Well I guess theres no guarantee whatsoever that the game will be completed until we see it on store shelves. Seven years?? Thats a pretty long time? Wonder where that time frame stands with most MMO manufacturers for comparison?

Simu prolly stands as a pretty small company compared to the resources of say Bioware et al and perhaps delays should be expected due to what must be a vast difference in resources?

I doubt that it would take the entire company's full resources to simultaneously broker a liscencing deal. So i'm sure the GM's, designers and what not are hard at work whilst that was going on and probably shared in the good news. Nothing like working for a company when good deals are being brokered while you're there. Of course all that could change in the blink of an eye as well.

I haven't seen any signs of a crack in the shell so untill then i'll let my patience, or lack thereof, have its due course.

 

[HJ-Diviana]

You guys have to remember that this is a totally different game than the Hero's Journey that was being developed previously.

They cancelled that version of the game, and instead started working on HeroBlade, so they could start on what we are now working on.

The new (and very much improved from screenshots I've seen) Hero's Journey game has been in development for approximately two (or three? I'm not entirely sure..) years now.

So seven years isn't really an accurate timeframe..

 

[Sabastian]

But what do we have as evidence that this game is going to produce a gameplay enviornment that will be worth investing time into?

Hurm! Past performance perhaps. Lets see, does past performance keep people comming back for more? Well ...

I've been a subscriber of a Simutronics product, Gemstone IV, on and off since 1994.

Looks like a big ol YES from you.

WHY is the game taking so long?

Please feel free to tell us how long it takes to develop a game? Not how long it takes after a company announces they are making the game, but total time please. How many people does it take? How many "man hours"? If you don't understand the concept of "man hours" see the book referenced below. Are you counting their first run at HJ? Is it fair to count that time since they scraped that project?

What makes you think that sales/executives need to be involved in day to day development of HJ? Don't you think they have developers and managers to take care of day to day opperations? How about their existing games? Should they can these games and take those resources to develop HJ faster? (NOTE: See the book reference to learn why that would be a bad decision)

Was Simutronics more concerned with licensing HeroEngine, or do they really care about getting the game out?

Bodies cost money! Would you perfer they go out and try to land SOE as a publisher to fund development? Let's not forget the game is being built with said engine, so they BETTER put a good bit of time in effort into development of HeroEngine. Which is not time spent developing the game, which IS time spend running at least to major products through QC! Bug hunts, bug fixes, etc etc etc ...

If you have never worked in the software industry I strongly suggest you pick up a copy of The Mythical Man Month and educate yourself.

Was Simutronics more concerned with licensing HeroEngine, or do they really care about getting the game out?

I guess what really pisses me off about questions like this, is that people present them as an either/or type of question. As if anything in the world is that black and white.

In fact, if you think about it, with this game being in its 7th year of development

Are you being honest with what you know Frosty? Or are you trying to make a BS point? You know they scraped the old development, so why try and claim they have been building this version of the game for 7 years? It's sad to see people try to spin things when you KNOW they are well aware of the history of HJ's development.

Seriously! WTF! Since when can a company not focus on more than one product? Who the F would invest/trust/have faith in a company that is a one trick pony! Wow this question rubs me the wrong way. Mods and Admins presenting this type of post on a fan site too .... I think it is time for me to find out why the old mods left.

 

[Shadow001]

Relax S. The point of the post isn't to piss anyone off, it's to understand differentiating points of view in an attempt to better understand for ourselves. As a mod/admin with connections to game developers and an understanding of the history of the company making the game, I'm trying to put out there the possibility of this game being dead before it has a chance to get on its feet.

Is that even a possibility? In spite of the points you've made (well done, btw), I still feel that it could happen. When I say I've been a subscriber on and off, I mean just that. I *left* the Simutronics game world when something better came along (WoW) and hang onto the account to re-subscribe for a month at a time every now and then to catch up with the few in-game friends that are still around.

To clarify where I'm trying to go with the post: I'm not really trying to say it's either they care about selling HeroEngine or they care about developing HJ: I know that Simutronics has a small inhouse staff which went balls to the wall in getting the game ready for display at E3 this year..but what have they been doing since then? Of the three off-site developers I regularly talk to, the general consensus is that game development has been relatively lax of late. Why? This is what I want to know. Was it because Simu has been pushing hard for a licencee of HeroEngine? If so, do you or anyone else feel that this helps the development of HJ?

Yes, they need to make money, but they also need to focus on getting this game out at least to Beta before the WoW expansion drops. Like it or not, WoW will set new standards with it's expansion pack and that's going to directly affect Hero's Journey.

I hope those reading this can understand this point of view. I'm not trying to step on any toes here, rather I'm trying to make some points maybe not all of us have yet considered.

 

[frostydf2]

Hurm! Past performance perhaps. Lets see, does past performance keep people comming back for more? Well ...


Quote:
I've been a subscriber of a Simutronics product, Gemstone IV, on and off since 1994.


Looks like a big ol YES from you.

You really should watch how you are putting things. You came off as ignorant, and rude in that first post. You can definatly hear the tone of your voice ringing throughout everybodys mind. Be more careful next time please.

Please feel free to tell us how long it takes to develop a game? Not how long it takes after a company announces they are making the game, but total time please. How many people does it take? How many "man hours"? If you don't understand the concept of "man hours" see the book referenced below. Are you counting their first run at HJ? Is it fair to count that time since they scraped that project?

What makes you think that sales/executives need to be involved in day to day development of HJ? Don't you think they have developers and managers to take care of day to day opperations? How about their existing games? Should they can these games and take those resources to develop HJ faster? (NOTE: See the book reference to learn why that would be a bad decision)

I'm not sure if you have taken the time to notice, but 7 years is a damn long time. Even if it wasn't 7 years, but only 3, they should keep their dates. I'm sorry, but Simutronics really is losing many customers due to them withdrawing out of their 'emotional bank account' with individuals. You can only push back dates for so long. I was expecting beta out, by word of developers, to be in October, then it was January, then February, then the latest was spring, now it's sometime Q4 2006. You can only do that for so long. Simutronics is spelling disaster if they keep delaying it. As Diviana stated, they destroyed 4 years of previous work to start over. Does that really sound that promising?

So how long does it take to build a game since you read 'The Mythical Man Month'.

Bodies cost money! Would you perfer they go out and try to land SOE as a publisher to fund development? Let's not forget the game is being built with said engine, so they BETTER put a good bit of time in effort into development of HeroEngine. Which is not time spent developing the game, which IS time spend running at least to major products through QC! Bug hunts, bug fixes, etc etc etc ...

I don't think you noticed where the entire point of this arguement is coming from. If you havn't noticed, it seems Simutronics is trying to sell the license more than they are worried about developing the game. Why not? You could make a very large sum of money with a half way decent demo to preview to possible buyers. They could just very well bag HJ, and use it to demo, and only sell HeroBlade.

I guess what really pisses me off about questions like this, is that people present them as an either/or type of question. As if anything in the world is that black and white.

Why don't you build off of the post instead of trying to destroy, and discredit a valid opinion. I for one have faith in Hero's Journey, and Simutronics for putting out what should to be a great game. I do wish they would show us the progress they are working on like other companies, than just pray the fish will come later.

Are you being honest with what you know Frosty? Or are you trying to make a BS point? You know they scraped the old development, so why try and claim they have been building this version of the game for 7 years? It's sad to see people try to spin things when you KNOW they are well aware of the history of HJ's development.

Seriously! WTF! Since when can a company not focus on more than one product? Who the F would invest/trust/have faith in a company that is a one trick pony! Wow this question rubs me the wrong way. Mods and Admins presenting this type of post on a fan site too .... I think it is time for me to find out why the old mods left.

I belive Divianna stated above that the game was in 7 years of development. Did I say the current version EVER in my post? I really don't belive so. I do want Hero's Journey to come out as fast as possibe, and if Simutronics plans on inveseting years to sell a license than to put a game out you start to become a bit speculative. We aren't trying to spin anything by the way, just opening things up for thought. Is it bad to think against the norm? I guess it is.

Mods, and admins presetning this type of post on a fan site huh? You think that since I'm an admin that I should not be able to question a companies integrity, or how they wish to conduct business? If you think that, than you are wrong. Nothing in this world is like that. If I'm Republican, should I not be able to question Republicans, and how they handle themselves?

Also, your comment at the end of your post was really un necessary when it comes to wondering why the old mods left. You really have no clue why they left, and probably wont unless you get it from them. It has nothing to do with how we think of Simutronics, or Hero's Journey.

I have my upmost faith in Simutronics, and this fansite proves it. Every day I dedicate a few hours of my time to make sure that Hero's Journey is getting the best fansite possible. I always tell people about the game, and am hoping to earn Simutronics a few extra dollars. I really dis approve of it when people question me, and how I handle myself.

 

[Evran]

Anywho... I personally still have faith in Simu about getting this game out. I have played DR off and on since about 97 or 98 and one thing I quickly learned to get a handle on was the wait time on releases and such. It came with the structure of the GM hierarchy. The vast majority of DR GMs were player volunteers who were given monthly honorariums for their efforts. Because most of the staff weren't behind their desks 5 days a week, 8 hours a day, you got patches of a lot of releases followed by dry spells. The infamous DR "soon" is a running gag on the DR forums meaning that "we'll try to get it as soon and possible, but we can't give an exact date" Things often got pushed up because of RL schedules of the involved GMS or GM turnover.

Now this all sounds doom and gloom, but once you settled into the routine it wasn't that bad. You just had to get used to them announcing things and then waiting 2 years until it got released. But when the GMs were in a productive mood, the releases came hot and heavy.

I think HJ will emply more paid GMs so it likely won't be as hit or miss. But I for one am cool with it if it is.

Heh, with this post, I've probably single-handedly scared a whole whack of people off this game now.

 

[Daax]

My only motive behind my undying faith in this game is because it's my last resort. Really, if HJ doesn't go well I may give up on MMO's entirely.
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Luciro, please stop being a rude little turd. I'm not sure frosty or any of the other mods has had to ban anyone, but I am sure they won't hesitate to do so. Kuzzle is entitled to his opinion as are you, but you chose to do it in a rude way. This is what separates HH from the WoW forum, the common courtesy between users. But you Luciro, are just disagreeing to disagree just so you can say "I'm different" and adding sarcasm and rudeness so you can also add some self satisfaction in thinking you're the sophisticated loner who's above everyone else. Don't flatter yourself.

 

[Daax]

Well, I first discovered about HJ in May of this year. And I had no knowledge of Simutronics or any of their games. And the lore of HJ still hasn't left me because I have never experienced endgame or even midgame in an MMO, so every experience is still new to me.

And although you weren't directing your comments towards me, you were still rude and sarcastic to Kuzzle which, believe me, the community and especially the mods don't tolerate. (I have many strikes against me already) And I REALLY don't want to see this turn into a flaming moshpit like the WoW forums. Disagreeing is ok, but just show a little common courtesy towards one another.

 

[Daax]

What interests me so much about HJ is their promise of full character control and freedom. I'm so sick and tired of looking on forums and finding builds or guides from high lvls telling me how to play and what to do. I'm tired of cookie cutter builds. But I'm also tired of "rock paper scissors" classes. I'm also drawn to what's been promised about quests and how imersive they are. No more "collect 10 of this" or "kill 20 of that"

But what really impresses me so much is the community and how it's so immerssed in the exchange of ideas for the production and betterment of the game, and not "l33t items" or "what's best build/weapon for this class" or "So and so is a newb"

And I have NEVER seen such feedback from employees that make the game. There are about 20 or so people from Simu here that are always answering our questions and helping us. It's really the community that mosts bring me back here. I probably would have never been so excited about this game as I have been without this forum and knowing I would get to adventure with all of you.

 

[Evran]

I probably would have never been so excited about this game as I have been without this forum and knowing I would get to adventure with all of you.

I think I speak for most of us... Aw shucks!

 

[Luciro]

Well most the folks here aren't RPers so I probably won't game with the majority anyway. Or if I'm out RPing as oddly as I do, most of you would go wyr raiding anyway.
So you've made a great point once again.

 

[sylveria]

We have indeed been busy working on tweaks and additions to both Hero's Journey and the Hero Engine, and we are extremely proud of the results for both...they were well worth the wait for everyone involved.

The internal development cycle is in full swing, resulting in gobs of discussions, diagrams, flowcharts, modeling, demonstrations, and all the behind-the-scenes things that need to happen for every component of the game. Think higher framerates, better CS tools, faster deployment of updates or quests, more dynamic artwork, faster resolution of in-game issues, streamlined code, etc. This kind of work is involved, long-lived, and not very exciting in press releases. But the end result is a more pleasurable experience for the players and we're 100% for that.

The quiet as of late is due to a shift in public relations duties with the exit of one GM and the search for another to take his place (big shoes to fill, trust me). Now that we have someone dedicated to serving the public interests related to HJ, the information will begin to flow. It may be a little slow at first but I think you'll like our new direction.

 

[Evran]

And I have NEVER seen such feedback from employees that make the game. There are about 20 or so people from Simu here that are always answering our questions and helping us.

And there you go... the proof is in the pudding. An answer to the seeming silence from behind the curtain. And within a couple hours to boot. Thanks, Sylveria.

 

[Kuzzle]

We have indeed been busy working on tweaks and additions to both Hero's Journey and the Hero Engine, and we are extremely proud of the results for both...they were well worth the wait for everyone involved.

The internal development cycle is in full swing, resulting in gobs of discussions, diagrams, flowcharts, modeling, demonstrations, and all the behind-the-scenes things that need to happen for every component of the game. Think higher framerates, better CS tools, faster deployment of updates or quests, more dynamic artwork, faster resolution of in-game issues, streamlined code, etc. This kind of work is involved, long-lived, and not very exciting in press releases. But the end result is a more pleasurable experience for the players and we're 100% for that.

The quiet as of late is due to a shift in public relations duties with the exit of one GM and the search for another to take his place (big shoes to fill, trust me). Now that we have someone dedicated to serving the public interests related to HJ, the information will begin to flow. It may be a little slow at first but I think you'll like our new direction.

Was said shift the reason I did not see a Dev Journal on mmorpg.com on Tuesday? They were supposed to show up every other Tuesday, right? Just curious, is all.

 

[Sylvado]

Was Simutronics more concerned with licensing HeroEngine, or do they really care about getting the game out?

In my opinion, yes. In addition, I think it is the best thing that could have happened to HJ. I remember the discussions that went on in the first round of HJ on the stratics and VN forums. One of the topics was about Simu finding a publisher to partner with to share the start up costs. Now I see the HeroEngine product as being that partner. When you are your own partner you get full creative control of your product, that is always a good thing.

I had been wondering about the recent lack of news and the push back on the dates. For me, all my questions have been answered by the Bioware agreement. With a deal like that I am sure most resources were assigned to finishing up all the loose ends of HeroEngine. That is the way I would have played it.

 

[Evran]

Hmmm, my non-business mind didn't make that connection Sylvado. But it certainly makes sense. At the very least the HeroEngine will be completed and fine-tuned or they will renege on the BioWare deal. And since there's no licence fees Simu has to pay to use it themselves, its just a hop, skip and a jump to a completed game from here.

 

[sylveria]

To tell you the truth, we don't see HJ and HE as two separate items. An innovation in one spurs growth for the other. Yes, we can license the HE part, but it is so integral to the building of HJ that the time taken to make HE better simply makes HJ better, too.
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Was said shift the reason I did not see a Dev Journal on mmorpg.com on Tuesday? They were supposed to show up every other Tuesday, right? Just curious, is all.

Whoops, forgot to reply to this one. We may be a bit late on this latest article, but it's out there somewhere in the pipeline. I expect to see it any day now.

(stomps her foot on the floorboard to get the attention of the scribes in the cellar.)

I said "any day now!"