Skill based game.

deserttfoxx

deserttfoxx

Cadet
I hear a lot of talk about MMOs today should be based on skill, they should require skill to do everything, from combat, to crafting. But i want to ask, what does that mean, what is a skill based game? Some people say a game doesnt take skill because you target then activate skills one by one until monsters dead. I see post saying certain things in a game suck because they dont take skill.

What exactly makes a game skill based, in detail what makes a game skill based.
 
This is my post from another thread but it fits perfectly in here so here it is.
Evran said:
I think there's two different ideas of what 'skill' means floating out here. One, skill is player skill (i.e. twitch and reflex ability) HJ will almost certainly not be like that. Two, skill as in FFXI-like or UO-like skills. The more you do something in game, the better your character (not you) gets at doing it. I think its likely HJ will follow this model, but a lot more flexible than FFXI in that every skill is available to every character.
Click to expand...
As far as a game being skill-based, in the case of player skill as a twitch game it would be needing to be good at the twitch mechanics to succeed.

As for the character skills, if the skills come before the levels (if even there are levels) then it would be considered skill-based. So for example, most MMOs out there are level based; you kill monsters until you reach the next level at which point you get better skills and abilities. I.e. the level comes first. In a skill-based game the opposite is true. You would gain ranks in skills and once your skills meet a certain rank, you are then promoted to the next level. Or in the case of a purely skill based game, there would only ever be skill ranks. No levels period.
 
The degree to which a game relies on random precalculated successes and failures is the determining factor of how much skill is needed by the player in combat. The actual control method (twitch,turn or target) is not as relevant as how much the computer precalculates successes and failures. Successes and failures are things like hits, misses, blocks, dodges,parries,evades,resists,crits,etc. I consider any game that keeps these precalculations to a minimum to be more player skill based while games that have an abundance of these combat precalculations to be less player skill based.

So I dream of someday playing a good high quality mmo that has fewer precalculations than what you find in games like WoW and EQ and other such games. And get this, a games doesn't have to be twitch based to precalc free.

A happy medium would be to make the game "if/then" based. Imagine in WoW everything works mostly the same except the projectiles themselves do not track their targets or turn in midflight to hit something. When you hit you hit. If your opponent moves far and fast enough after the shot is fired, you miss. Same with melee combat, only closer. However for that to work characters and weapons would need more (but not necessarily perfectly) accurate collision detection instead of those bulky generic hit boxes. You still autoattack and autoaim but hits and misses are calculated by collision detection and defense is manual (you click a defend button or whatever or even auto-defending is fine as long as success or failure is based on collision detection rather than random calculations). Players don't have to be Quake masters to do well with a system like that. That to me is a happy medium.
 
z80's on the right track.
I can see a game picking up a more 'Morrowind' style of game play to and successfully being considered 'skill' based. Despite it also chancing hits and misses even when the range and enduranced requirements were met for a roll to activiate.

Now there's 2 different discussions which use the word skill as well going on around here:
Skill based leveling being one. Skill based gameplay being the other.

Skill based leveling means ideally.. As you advance in a game world you choose certain skills and you choose to strengthen or just heighten certain ones that cater to your playstyle. So effectivly you're adapting the character to suit you rather than go down a liner path of progression. The latter being the majority of games out there. Also you can toss in the discussion of how skills should 'train or advance'. Should repeative use train them? Should you have to pay hero points to advance a skill? Should you pay in game cash? Real cash? So on and so forth. I always liked it when a game did a lil' of both.

Skill based gameplay means, a player's skill at playing the game in full control of his avatar. Ideally this is when a person good at a certain style of game could eventually.. "Be level 5 and kill a level 50 due to the fact the level 50 wasn't very good at the game." That's a little extreme because a level 50 probably wouldn't stick with a game he sucked at that long. LoL But you should get the idea with that. Now is that always going to be fully twitch to be skilled at playing a game? I disagree. If games incorperated more choices rather than 'spam powers for a lil' bit more damaged based on how uber your sword is and how much str your chest piece adds' then it could become more skill based. Examples, choosing your strikes and adding physics to weapons and player models. What if in a MMO a level 20 rogue actually got the jump on a level 50 paladin? He trips him, quickly hits some sort of lethal strike crippling the paladin's sword arm, then goes right for the neck. Sure the battles would be quick and sometimes seem unfair, but they'd be realistic. NOW, what if the Paladin had a sort of 'ward' or 'blessing' upon him to help him keep limbs from being crippled? He trained up such a skill? Now he'd have to show this vagabond the power of his rightous ways.

All of that is what a certain sect of MMOs players are longing for. Rather than just add a piece of armor for some wisdom.. How can metal make you more wise? Or pay a guy to hit harder with your arc swing? I'm going to give a gold to my grampaw, maybe I'll widdle a lil' better tomorrow.. You actually advance in the game in a more meaningful way. But maybe that's not practical. Then when it comes to combat, or even crafting, if one has a great understanding of their game and the game's play style.. Twitch, turn based, a roll system then the game play should reward them with being great at the game despite how much phat loot they possess or don't. The opposite of that is indeed just mindlessly spamming damage, tracking heals, buffing up to mindlessly circle and gank some epic raid boss. Ya know, stuff that lacks actual strategy. In this format MMOs are simple number games with a touch of heads or tails tossed in, with a chat room attatched to it. On a side note, that's why I never got why some folks never cared for the chat room attached to it and they're proud of their MMO play. It's just too simplistic.
 
z80 said:
The degree to which a game relies on random precalculated successes and failures is the determining factor of how much skill is needed by the player in combat. The actual control method (twitch,turn or target) is not as relevant as how much the computer precalculates successes and failures. Successes and failures are things like hits, misses, blocks, dodges,parries,evades,resists,crits,etc. I consider any game that keeps these precalculations to a minimum to be more player skill based while games that have an abundance of these combat precalculations to be less player skill based.
Click to expand...

Well thats interesting.

If there are precalcs going on in the game the notion of "skill" is somewhat of an illusion. I thought the whole skill thing was players basing the notion of 'skill' on player/weapon/armour/agility/defense stats?

So are those factors actually tweaking the odds in your favor via the precalc? If so then "skill" is an illusion :( . meh...save for the twitch based game; and even that only measure reflex skill over a 56k IP connection that may be slow as compared to DSL or 3mg cable LOL.

Dude you should've put 'Spoiler Alert' at the head of your post. Tell me its not so.... buhahahaha....

*sobs uncontrollably on Daax's shoulder*
 
Keep in mind aiming and fast reflexes are not the only skills useful in a non/low precalc combat situation. Strategy is easily equally important. Even in a fps game a person with felgercarb aim, reflexes and tactics still can pwn if his strategy is tight. It's not just about reflexes, (i think people try to upplay reflexes to downplay the merits of low precalc combat) it's about decision making skills. Too many games put too many decisions on the computer for precalc and too few on the actual player. Games that use heavy precalc still require skill, just not as much as that same game with less precalc.
 
*comforts Thaos and gives him cookie dough*

If you all want to see a real good example of twitch and skil based games then you all should play Gunz the Duel. Find some of the sword pros there and you'll feel like an insect. And you'll twitch...alot.
 
Daax said:
Wasn't the matrix online a twitch MMO?
Click to expand...

I don't know. I don't think anyone ever signed up to play that hollywood spawned pile o' poo. ;)

I mentioned elsewhere that Huxley is supposed to be a twitch mmofps that you can level up within.
 
Let this be a lesson that MMOs based off of movies will inevitably blow because these guys up at hollywood think that an MMO will sell that same way a movie will. examples "SWG, Matrix Online..."

This makes me ponder about what will become of Lord of the Rings Online.
 
'Action Rpgs' will be the death of the RPG genre. I openly weep as the market turns towards the types of games Z80 promotes. It has already had a huge impact. So many players are alienated from these types of games. The sad thing is that many of players alienated are the ones that the RPG genre was created for.

I for one am very thankful that Simu has the prior experience in the MUD arena. This gives me confidence that they will not abandon the type of gameplay their customers have come to be a fan of. Seriously, if you want to play 'action rpgs' you should be on console systems since they allow internet connections now.
 
Well Oxlar, that's where the market is going. No one should try and say they're making a game for everyone. Some of us would like more control in our game play.
Role-Playing Games to me mean playing a role. Not pointing, clicking, and letting the machine randomize the results of a battle. Even if I can see myself in 3D, why can't I have more control of the environment?
Sure it's not for everyone, but I'm rather sick of chance playing. Consoles are fun and all, even the online ones, but I'm more than willing to pay to play an action RPG that's expansive and always expanding.
 
Oxlar if there are 6 mmos released per year and only 1 or 2 of them cater to my playstyle and that of other "manual" (yes manual because that's all it is...not all of it is twitchy, sporatic and mindless as opponents of this style would like to imply..it just means you get to make the decisions on what do do for yourself) game fans what harm will that do? Seriously? Nobody is suggesting that people stop making precalc-intensive games altogether. Only that people make a few low to no precalc games in the mix for varieties sake and to cater to those who would rather play that way. People say manual rpg mmos will alienate fans of precalc gameplay but they never stop to consider how precalc intensive gameplay alienates manual gamers. At this point the precalc games are the only way for gamers in general to have a quality online rpg experience. In other words we have to suck it up and let the computer do for us what we are very much capable of and would love to do ourselves or play no quality mmorpg at all. Again if 2 out of 6 per year were manual rather than precalc what harm will that do to you? None. Both camps would be greatly satisfied.
 
Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying there shouldn't be 'action' oriented RPGs for those of you that like that. What I am saying is that there is a trend in the market right now that has totally shifted the ratio out of whack. Very very very few rpgs in development or just releasing are not 'action' rpg. The truth is that your playstyle will be what is catered to, and mine is being removed from the market. Your claim holds validity in past years, but starting this year my play style will be the extreme minority. And that is what makes me weep. This is why I applaud Simu and probably Bioware.

Some of you may be capable of the manual dexterity to control such chaos, I am not. I have degenerative nerve problems that keep me from doing stuff like that. The trend now is that games are comming out of the box with voice integration, not as a good tool to help your game experience, but because it is impossible to play the game and carry on a conversation in text at the same time.

And I know what an RPG is Luciro. But you have to realize that in its inception there is a play style that has always been associated to RPGs as a genre defining characteristic. RPGs in the digital format have a much greater definition than just Role-playing. 'Chance' playing is the heart of true role playing. Thats why we use dice in real role playing games. You have a skill of your character and you apply a random factor to it. This is what computer role playing games were trying to emulate and when you remove that you remove the game from that genre. When you apply manual targeting then you are not assuming the skills of your character anymore, you yourself are substituting your own abilities for the characters and you no longer are playing the role of that character. Now your character is playing the role of you.
 
I understand you now. I would definitely not want precalc games to be wiped out either. Sometimes I want to mellow out and not have to worry about so much while I play. Believe me, my hands are not all that fast either and my aim isn't really all that great. I am a good tactician though but most importantly I'm a control freak when it comes to games.
 
Daax said:
Let this be a lesson that MMOs based off of movies will inevitably blow because these guys up at hollywood think that an MMO will sell that same way a movie will. examples "SWG, Matrix Online..."

This makes me ponder about what will become of Lord of the Rings Online.
Click to expand...

I had some thoughts about this the other day but didn't know how to word it. So thanks, I think its a very valid point.
 
Oxlar said:
'Action Rpgs' will be the death of the RPG genre.
Click to expand...

Yeah does does seem to be a divide and I think many of us are here out of hope that a game is on the way that will put the 'RPG' aspect back into the game moreso than with us using our imaginations exclusively to add that ingrediant.

[quote...I for one am very thankful that Simu has the prior experience in the MUD arena. This gives me confidence that they will not abandon the type of gameplay their customers have come to be a fan of.[/quote]

/signed

...in its inception there is a play style that has always been associated to RPGs as a genre defining characteristic. RPGs in the digital format have a much greater definition than just Role-playing. 'Chance' playing is the heart of true role playing. Thats why we use dice in real role playing games. You have a skill of your character and you apply a random factor to it. This is what computer role playing games were trying to emulate and when you remove that you remove the game from that genre.
Click to expand...

Thats gotta be one of the best 'Things I sensed but never crystalized' ideas i've heard in relation to MMO-RPGs. Kudos.
 

Similar threads

Existence
Existence (web based game, in development)
Replies
0
Views
1K
Existence
Existence
Robby
New York Launches Public School Curriculum Based on Playing Games
Replies
1
Views
1K
sammybaker
S
W
Suggestions: -Skills-
Replies
12
Views
655
Ikiru
Ikiru
Back
Top