Still Humming Along

[Lethe5683]

I guess the graphics have never really been a clincher for me. The gameplay and community are what matter IMO. I played EQ2 and WOW and I don't really see a huge improvement over the graphics, and both of the games in general were just aweful.

That's weird because when I played FFXI the game seemed horrible. Right from the get go you get to lvl 10 and it's either spend 100000 years trying to form a group or solo at a ridiculously slow pace with nothing but grinding mobs, no quests, no nothing. EQ2 had me so immersed in the lore, quests, outstanding graphics that it took me a very long time getting to level 10 just because I was having so much fun exploring and not trapped in by the walls of mountains that surround pretty much every zone in FFXI. Also, much better choice of race in EQ2. I really didn't like any race in FFXI very much. Especially since all but one of the races was immediately disqualified and the remaining one was meh...

 

[Zink]

Not to mention all of the Asian players who discriminated against Americans and Europeans and wouldn't let them form groups or touch certain mobs...and the gold farmers...

 

[Valendros]

EQ2 had me so immersed in the lore, quests, outstanding graphics that it took me a very long time getting to level 10 just because I was having so much fun exploring and not trapped in by the walls of mountains that surround pretty much every zone in FFXI. Also, much better choice of race in EQ2. I really didn't like any race in FFXI very much. Especially since all but one of the races was immediately disqualified and the remaining one was meh...

Immersed in quests? or bored to brain numbness by them?


WOW/EQ2/LOTRO etc etc etc are all the same game. Oh look, there's an exclamation point above that dood's head. I gotta go kill 10 rats. Oh look there's another over that other dood's head. I gotta go get 8 rat pelts. Oh look there's another over that third dood's head. I gotta go pick up a sword in the rat area. Oh there's another over that dood's head. I gotta kill the uber rat in the middle of the rest of the rats.

This is fun?


Now there are some quests that are very complex and involving with a great story behind them. Don't get me wrong. But FFXI has those too, and from what I've seen, they are of better quality and quantity.

Not to mention all of the Asian players who discriminated against Americans and Europeans and wouldn't let them form groups or touch certain mobs...and the gold farmers...

A) The JP players have calmed down somewhat
B) The hackers are getting banned faster than they're being remade
C) The gil farmers are hardly an issue anymore, inflation is way over, and the subsequent deflation is over and now the economy is very stable.
D) I haven't waited for a group for more than 10 minutes since I re-started. And while waiting, I can easily solo at around 4k/hr

 

[Lethe5683]

Immersed in quests? or bored to brain numbness by them?


WOW/EQ2/LOTRO etc etc etc are all the same game. Oh look, there's an exclamation point above that dood's head. I gotta go kill 10 rats. Oh look there's another over that other dood's head. I gotta go get 8 rat pelts. Oh look there's another over that third dood's head. I gotta go pick up a sword in the rat area. Oh there's another over that dood's head. I gotta kill the uber rat in the middle of the rest of the rats.

This is fun?

Not immersed in quests, no. However what's more boring? Killing 10 mobs by pressing attack and going afk, then pressing "rest" and going afk again, or killing 10 mobs for a quest and actually having to push buttons to fight.

 

[Valendros]

Not immersed in quests, no. However what's more boring? Killing 10 mobs by pressing attack and going afk, then pressing "rest" and going afk again, or killing 10 mobs for a quest and actually having to push buttons to fight.

If you had got passed level 10, or played anything but warrior, then you'd have a different perspective.

Even at 18 as a Blue Mage, I'm constantly adjusting my play during battle, setting up skillchains, magic bursts, stunning mob's TP moves if I don't like them (aka goblin bomb toss).

Besides, hitting f1, f2, f3, f4, f5, f6, f5, f3, f2, f5, f4, f1, f2, f5, f3 is hardly what I consider fun either.

A majority of the fights in FFXI involve skill, being aware of your surroundings and your fellow players. If your party isn't made up for a specific type of mob, or if even one member of your party isn't giving 100%, you are doomed for failure. In EQ2, half my party would go AFK and we were still fine. The fights lasted for 20 seconds no matter what.

 

[HJ-Onilink]

I reactivated my account! I'm in the Leviathan server.

 

[Lethe5683]

If you had got passed level 10, or played anything but warrior, then you'd have a different perspective.

Even at 18 as a Blue Mage, I'm constantly adjusting my play during battle, setting up skillchains, magic bursts, stunning mob's TP moves if I don't like them (aka goblin bomb toss).

Excuse me but I had a Lv. 75 ninja, 75 thief, 70 paladin, 65 samurai, 55 warrior, 37 black mage, 37 white mage, 37 red mage and the rest I don't remember.

Besides, hitting f1, f2, f3, f4, f5, f6, f5, f3, f2, f5, f4, f1, f2, f5, f3 is hardly what I consider fun either.

What are you talking about?

A majority of the fights in FFXI involve skill, being aware of your surroundings and your fellow players. If your party isn't made up for a specific type of mob, or if even one member of your party isn't giving 100%, you are doomed for failure. In EQ2, half my party would go AFK and we were still fine. The fights lasted for 20 seconds no matter what.

All the skill you listed is just the basics in eq2. And 20 seconds to kill mob is ridiculous. I'm in groups regularly killing groups of 84 ^^^ heroics in less than 30 sec and that's for three mobs. If half your party went afk and you were fine than you either were grouping at a low level with someones twinked alt or you were fighting stuff way to easy.

 

[Valendros]

Excuse me but I had a Lv. 75 ninja, 75 thief, 70 paladin, 65 samurai, 55 warrior, 37 black mage, 37 white mage, 37 red mage and the rest I don't remember.

I guess I was confused, read level 10 and figured that's where you got... But If FFXI seemed so horrible, why did you play it so much? That's a lot of leveling for somebody who hates the game... I really hate Broccoli. I don't eat Broccoli.

What are you talking about?

That's all I ever did in those games (WOW, EQ2, LOTRO). When one of my little skills was ready, I hit the button. Hey look, another skill is ready, Hit the button!. Hey look, another skill is ready, Hit the button!

All the skill you listed is just the basics in eq2. And 20 seconds to kill mob is ridiculous. I'm in groups regularly killing groups of 84 ^^^ heroics in less than 30 sec and that's for three mobs. If half your party went afk and you were fine than you either were grouping at a low level with someones twinked alt or you were fighting stuff way to easy.

I think that was my point Lethe. 82 tripple up heroics in less than 30 seconds... I'm still struggling to see the skill.

Half your party going afk, you're fine in EQ2 = Zero Skill. No skill, no challenge, no fun IMO. But you might like sandbox games where you just veg out and button mash.


What I was trying to point out is that in FFXI, every single battle is challenging. Every type of mob requires a certain type of party (except manaburns, they can pretty much decimate anything). Every boss is hard. Every BCNM/HNM/etc has only one or two ways to beat them. Everything is very difficult. I love that about FFXI.

 

[Zink]

Haha they are all good games, I don't think it's really worth arguing about. Not that I expect any different but still...people enjoy different things.

 

[Lethe5683]

That's all I ever did in those games (WOW, EQ2, LOTRO). When one of my little skills was ready, I hit the button. Hey look, another skill is ready, Hit the button!. Hey look, another skill is ready, Hit the button!

You won't get anywhere playing like that.

I think that was my point Lethe. 82 tripple up heroics in less than 30 seconds... I'm still struggling to see the skill.

They are only trash mobs, of course they're easy. Not to mention my groups are good.

Half your party going afk, you're fine in EQ2 = Zero Skill.

That's a total exaggeration. One person going afk could be enough to make the group wipe.

What I was trying to point out is that in FFXI, every single battle is challenging. Every type of mob requires a certain type of party (except manaburns, they can pretty much decimate anything). Every boss is hard. Every BCNM/HNM/etc has only one or two ways to beat them. Everything is very difficult. I love that about FFXI.

I agree that some of the "boss" fights were difficult but eq2 has plenty of difficult mobs too, you just must not have gotten that far.

 

[Valendros]

That's a total exaggeration. One person going afk could be enough to make the group wipe.

It's difficult when you miss my point. And it's probably me; I have a tendency to be confusing when I mean to be making myself clearer.

So it's your contention that the WOW clones are just as challenging as FFXI.

I agree that all games are fun for different reasons. But the reasons I believe the WOW clones are good isn't for the challenge. In fact I believe it's the exact opposite. Americans seem to want things handed to them. They want sandbox. Those games are easy enough that anybody can just pick up and play them right out of the box. They want somebody to tell them exactly what to go do, and how to go do it instead of figuring it out for themselves.

I like FFXI and the other games I play because of the challenge. Because I can feel like I accomplished something when I cap a job, or finish a storyline. Because I don't feel like anything is handed to me when I play. Almost all MMOs provide a rich storyline, but along with a great story, FFXI has the challenge every single time I play, with every single thing I do in the game.

But then I'm the type of person that when I get a game, I play it on hard. Not because I feel I'm any good, but because I want to be able to find the puzzle of how to do something, how to kill some boss, or how to stay alive on my own and the best way. On easy you can just show up and it's handed to you. On medium you might have to figure out some secrets. But on hard, you have to find the precise way the Devs wanted you to do it.

 

[Lethe5683]

EQ2 is not a WoW clone. And the main reasons I don't like FFXI has nothing to do with challenges or not:

1. I don't like any of the races.
2. The community was too rude and close minded.
3. Level 75 progression was boring as all there was to do group wise was grinding tons and tons of mobs to get merit points or whatever they were called.

Things I don't like about EQ2:
1. The classes have many really really really really really stupid design flaws.
2. Race doesn't make enough difference stat-wise.

Overall I give FFXI 4/10 and EQ2 5/10. WoW get's 0/10 BTW.

 

[Faeshadow]

So it's your contention that the WOW clones are just as challenging as FFXI.

How can EQ1 *or* 2 be clones of WoW when they came out before WoW?

 

[Makkah]

BECAUSE WOW MAKES MORE MONEYZ!! IT R BETTAR!

/sarcasm

WoW sucks.

 

[Zink]

Well I mean anything that has any subtle similarity, whether released before or after WoW, is no deemed a clone and dismissed. That's how things work now.

 

[Lethe5683]

WoW is just a failed hybrid clone of all previous MMOs.

 

[HJ-Onilink]

Lethe, how can you call WoW a clone when nearly everyone refers to "online gaming" as WoW? WoW has the very similar status as the Ipod.
I don't believe WoW "failed clone" either, as long as the population is still going strong. I'm sure sections of other mmo's were used in dev but that's how the industry works.
Whether the true build intentions of WoW were acheived or not, WoW has been placed on a pedestal that's not coming anytime soon.

btw, I've never played nor do I have any interest to play. I've been so burned out of WoW just by what I'm told and read.

 

[Valendros]

How can EQ1 *or* 2 be clones of WoW when they came out before WoW?

Easy.

Just a few simple questions.
1) Have you played EQ2 when it first came out and then now?
2) If so, What has changed?
3) Why has it changed?

EQ2 has been changing since it came out, some for the better some for the worse. But a huge majority of the changes are right in line with WOW. My bosses at my last job were both heavy players of EQ2. They would come in and talk to eachother about changes or updates or expansions, and a majority of the changes were to fit into a WOW model.

Who wouldn't want to fit into the WOW model? They're obviously doing something right. And if a company is going to steal players from WOW, what better way than to make yourself a clone of it?


Now that's not to say WOW didn't take the best things out of a lot of other games itself, because it did. But then the other MMOs started to follow that same line. By the time I tried EQ2 (to appease my bosses), it was indistinguishable from WOW. Same with LOTRO.

FFXI has made some changes, but they've stayed pretty true to their original game because they aren't trying to steal people away from WOW, their major customer base is Japan. So they cater to those players. And those players want a challenge.

 

[Lethe5683]

Lethe, how can you call WoW a clone when nearly everyone refers to "online gaming" as WoW?

Because most of the people who play WoW are not real MMO players but rather just players from other genres (primary fps and rts) that were attracted to WoW because it was a blizzard game and it was made easy enough for their attention span.

It is a failure because not only has it tainted the MMO community possibly beyond repair but it has also cause other MMOs to become crappy by trying to imitate it.

 

[Gate]

Lethe, in your argument I see a similarity to Sara Palin's "people who live in cities are not real Americans" argument. If WoW is the standard for MMOs, has 11 million players (or whatever it is up to now), and acts as a nexus upon which most other games in the genre revolve, how can players of it not be "real MMO players." Just because someone is from a small town or plays a small MMO does not make them more of a "real" anything. Anything that dominates and changes an industry is by the very definition of the word, a success. Just because you don't like WoW and Palin doesn't like cities doesn't mean they aren't thriving, growing centers.

I personally don't like cities. I personally don't like WoW (anymore). But I personally disagree with any arguments that say they aren't successful or important or popular or "real."