The Kingmaker Machine

[Thaos Nightwind]

I've heard of the 'living' systems that will be in HJ whether political (lore factions) or physical (virtual animals etc) being referred to as a 'cog' or 'cogs' i.e. smaller subsets or parts of HJ's larger living world machine.

One of these 'cog's i've heard of being mentioned as the "Kingmaker Machine".

Now from the political/faction aspect of things within the HJ universe The Triumverate (big dog da house) will be composed of representatives from three (Tri) factions. How active a guild will be with their 'Kingmaker cog' will or can be the determining factor as to which guilds will have representatives within the The Triumverate. A position which may allow a guild or combination of guilds to have even broader influence over other 'cogs'.

How do you feel this should be handled?

Should guilds be allowed to have an appointed representative over The Triumverate or should only GM's be allowed to the be the direct heads of these 'cogs'?

With what little we know of the Journey System and its alternatives for success I hope that guild quest to gain 'cog' faction will fall under it as opposed to which guild simply slayed the most beast and or finished the most quest (classical MMO grinding).

To make things even more complicated HJ will have 'Clans' which can or will be smaller groups of peeps than a guild. Clans can then join guilds so guilds can be composed of many subsets of Clans. Obviously clans can have their own faction standings as well with various 'cogs'. Your thoughts on that?

Clans and Guilds may have 'cog' related character bonuses that sort of overlap in heirarchical fashion. Your thoughts on that?

How could the situation be avoided that the guilds with the most members/clans wins the bounty in this the political Kingmaker Machine?

 

[Daax]

Uh..I have no clue. O_o

 

[Evran]

Well, political systems aren't really my cup of tea. They're my least favourite thing to RP. Howver, I will say that as long as a player isn't 'forced' into participating directly in the faction system actively I'm fine with whichever way they make it work. And by 'forced' I mean making it essential to gameplay or a requirement to gain a basic ability or function of a class. It should be an optional system, even if you joined a clan that happens to be part of a guild that happens to be part of a faction.

 

[thebiv]

The political system is certainly one of the areas I am highly interested in. It will certainly be hard to prevent larger guilds from obtaining all the power. However I think that may be part of the fun. Trying to form alliances with other smaller guilds and clans in order to get you represenatives more power (assuming officials are appointed from the clans, as I feel they should be) Organizing coups, backstabbing former political allies, yes its truely a system that a rogue could grow to love.

However until we have more info on this system we cant say anything for sure. I will say however that this is one part of the game I intend to be highly involved in.

 

[Thaos Nightwind]

The political system is certainly one of the areas I am highly interested in. It will certainly be hard to prevent larger guilds from obtaining all the power. However I think that may be part of the fun. Trying to form alliances with other smaller guilds and clans in order to get you represenatives more power (assuming officials are appointed from the clans, as I feel they should be) Organizing coups, backstabbing former political allies, yes its truely a system that a rogue could grow to love.

However until we have more info on this system we cant say anything for sure. I will say however that this is one part of the game I intend to be highly involved in.

Yeah thats probably gonna be a good route to take as it will mesh with the Lore. Heck, what am I saying it *IS* the Lore.

Now some of you have stated 'Fine, as long as it doesn't affect my character development'. But consider this scenario:

5-8 people form The Chainmail Clan the result of which may be say: +10% Magical dmg for all members depending on who the leader is etc. - and a +5% Healing bonus because of favorable Sprite Faction ('cog') standing.

Later the Chainmail Clan ends up joining the The Avatar Guild which then gives them another +8% melee dmg and +4% Intellect from favorable Gearsmith faction standing that the Avatar Guild has garnered.

Later still The Avatar Guild becomes a member in good standing of The Triumverate an adds yet another +6% Magical Resistance to all member's skill pool etc...

We haven't even mentioned Wyr yet and our hypothetical character is already +31% from where they started.

So i'm just wondering. If someone doesn't want to participate within the Kingmaker Machine will there still be a way for them to acheive equal advancement?

If not would you consider that "unfair"? If so why?

 

[QuantumWire]

So i'm just wondering. If someone doesn't want to participate within the Kingmaker Machine will there still be a way for them to acheive equal advancement?

If not would you consider that "unfair"? If so why?

I don't see why that should be considered "unfair". As long as the system is reasonably dynamic so that a guild can (with enough effort) replace a rivalling guild from it's current position of power then any reward gained by politics is just the fair reward for the political questing, a quest which is open to any player. It's the players choice wether or not he meddles in politics (or applies/applies not for membership in a guild which does).

 

[Jaraeth]

The Kingmaker Machine, I believe is actually a tree. I had asked a question about that, and was pointed to a screenshot of a tree with light passing onto it from another source... the one where the tree seems to be in the middle of a raised balcony, and it's roots in midair underneath... so it's not an actual "machine", if I understood the GM's point correctly.

I'm not so clear on what you mean by "cogs" other than faction standing/rating. It is also my understanding that Clan's, if able to be aligned with a faction, cannot be of a differing faction than a guild they ally with. However, I am interested in knowing if this way of thinking still holds true, or ever did.

~ Jaraeth

 

[Thaos Nightwind]

The Kingmaker Machine, I believe is actually a tree. I had asked a question about that, and was pointed to a screenshot of a tree with light passing onto it from another source...

Oh. Well in this instance The Kingmaker Machine refers to one of the 'living world systems' (cogs) within HJ universe. Kind of like the smaller cogs and sprockets that form the inner workings of a clock. The clock would be the HJ universe and one of its samller aspects would be like a 'cog' in the clock. A metaphorical thing. Only this 'living world system' is related to the politcal/guild/lore advancement aspect of the game. Thats what was meant by the cog reference. Pft. You're right ... faction standing.

It is also my understanding that Clan's, if able to be aligned with a faction, cannot be of a differing faction than a guild they ally with. However, I am interested in knowing if this way of thinking still holds true, or ever did.

good question
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I don't see why that should be considered "unfair". As long as the system is reasonably dynamic so that a guild can (with enough effort) replace a rivalling guild from it's current position of power then any reward gained by politics is just the fair reward for the political questing, a quest which is open to any player. It's the players choice wether or not he meddles in politics (or applies/applies not for membership in a guild which does).

So you do you think the game will be balanced enough so that say... the lone wolf type solo player or samller groups wouldn't feel left out?

The reason I ask and site this example is becasue we've seen games take a seriously bad turn from griefers and cynical "loud enthusiast" types who seem to have nothing better to do with their lives than complain until devs turn a game into what MMO's have become i.e long boring tedious grindfest. I'd hate for HJ to cave like that.

So if participating in one game aspect gives a character some advantages over *not* participating then they will run into that kind of thing. Perhaps I over inflated the post but thats it in a nutshell.

 

[Evran]

Now some of you have stated 'Fine, as long as it doesn't affect my character development'. But consider this scenario:

Not sure if my post was included in this observation, but if it was, just a clarification/reiteration: I don't give a hoot if it affects my character development... with one caveat. Anything gained by active participation in the faction system should not be essential to 'succeeding' in the game. Or to put it another way, if I don't participate actively I won't be able to gain basic abilities needed to play my character effectively. RP is great and wonderful and all, but there does need to be some attention given to advancement or you're gonna be stuck RPing a wimpy <insert class> every time all your friends go off on an epic quest. Of course that can be a fun RP to do occasionally, but not all the time. Boils down to options I guess.

 

[Luciro]

Well that's the things about cogs in a machine.
You may favor one cog over another on this side of the various clockwork that makes up a machine. Yet, even the slightest manipulation of your favorite cog will no doubt turn the others just a lil' (or a lot). I think that's why they chose such wording.
All in all tho', I do believe the hero system won't so much affect direct bonus'. I could be wrong, but it seems from what you've stated that you know and from what I've read elsewhere. Moving your collective forward (clan, guild, faction) will unlock favoriable things such as.. Control of hunting grounds, quests, merchants and what not. If I were to guess based on what I've read thus far on it all.

 

[Kuzzle]

Ok, this post is probably going to rather long-winded and choppy, so please bear with me...

1: If you did recieve faction standings, then I think you should be able to gain them personally. What I mean by this, or course, is that you shouldn't have to by part of a political party for a faction to like you. Now, maybe you are in one; Your personal standing with said faction could vary within the given average of your clan/guild. Too many people fall out of favor with a faction, your guild loses favor.
I know this is probably what you were thinking, anyway, just saying that I don't think the guild/clan would have to act as a whole to lose favor. It should be more personal, ya know?

2: I don't think you should have to be part of a clan/guild in order to advance. What I mean is, it shouldn't grant a required bonus. If it did, the powergamers and the hardcore RPers would each start their own guilds, and they'd basicly be warring factions. They'd recruit new members as often as they could, and the little guilds would get crushed under their fat asses.

3: Any politically gained bonuses should be fairly fickle, and self-balancing. You can't be on both sides of an arguement, so you shouldn't be able to gain bonuses from both. Sure, this goes without saying, but even if two sides aren't exactly warring, they could still be on shakey ground. Maybe they were childhood rivals, both looking to do something their own way, or something. Just saying, the number of benefits should be somehow limited... Again, I know this goes without saying. I just said it because you gave a fairly high number of bonuses in your example, Thaos.

4: They should make a way so a guild doesn't have to be too big to have an important role in politics. If a guild gets too big, it gets cold, impersonal. Hell, I liked the Suikoden games, and I just realized how awesome it would be to have a guild like the organizations in those games. Everyone needed in their own way, if only because they were awesome. I mean, I don't know about you, but I often used under-powered characters just because they were my favorite... Anyway, yeah...

Ok, now, I know that was boring, and most of it didn't really need to be said, but I decided to say it anyway. Have fun!

 

[QuantumWire]

So you do you think the game will be balanced enough so that say... the lone wolf type solo player or samller groups wouldn't feel left out?

The reason I ask and site this example is becasue we've seen games take a seriously bad turn from griefers and cynical "loud enthusiast" types who seem to have nothing better to do with their lives than complain until devs turn a game into what MMO's have become i.e long boring tedious grindfest. I'd hate for HJ to cave like that.

So if participating in one game aspect gives a character some advantages over *not* participating then they will run into that kind of thing. Perhaps I over inflated the post but thats it in a nutshell.

I agree with you about the "loud enthusiast problem". Some people seem to spend as much time on the forums complaining about their class being inferior and could the other classes please be nerfed as they actually play the game.

Regarding the lone-wolves and the smaller groups: Good question. But it really depends on which type of bonuses are awarded for clan/guild/great house.
The Great house-bonus is not so much of a problem, imo: I remember reading somewhere that single players can associate themselves with a faction. The faction is thus more like a "nation" or something, even the lone-wolf, who does not communicate with other people may still favor the Kinnaes over the Arcanum and the Gearsmiths.
As for clans and guilds, it really depends on how boni are awarded (if at all) and what the boni are. If they are small enough and not combat-centered they will probably not upset the game-balance but may still provide enough incentive for clans to compete.

P.S.: Argh, should have read to the end of the thread before answering. With his points 2,3 and 4 Kuzzle gives some nice examples of how and which boni should be awarded.