Season 3 The nightmare begins

V

verdantheart

Guest
Has the season so far been one long “Prelude” (3:07)? Or is it just this episode? I mentioned that the previous episode felt a great deal like a set-up. This one sets the pace quickening--toward a huge emergency. The episode begins with a nightmare, and ends with a nightmare come to life.

Sydney’s nightmare begins with flashes of color and sound--shapes of doves or pigeons and the distorted ringing of churchbells. Finally, a stone angel seems to flap its wings and fall upon her. She seems to wake in a locked lab, where she finds that the scar on her abdomen has reopened into a large wound from which she pulls yards of bloody tubing. At last she truly wakes--screaming and crying.

She’s had enough and shows up at the CIA psychiatrist’s office--but not to talk about group sessions. She wants to know about the dangerous procedure that she and Jack have been arguing about: neuro-stimulation. The psychiatrist agrees with Jack, however, that he would “consider death as an option before this procedure.” He shows Sydney Kenneth Blake, a CIA agent who was lost until he was recovered in South Korea. Blake volunteered for the procedure and they learned that he went through intense and prolonged torture. Blake was left with severe brain damage, yet the NSC considers him a “successful test case.”

In Mexico, the police capture Simon Walker’s confederate Javier. Javier offers intel regarding Sydney/Julia as a bartering chip.

In LA, Dixon shuts down the office for the entry of a sensitive operative: Sloane. It turns out that the Covenant has grown tired of simply using Sloane’s organization as a cover for their activities and assigned him an operation: to steal the OS for a Chinese satellite-based maser capable of committing assassinations. Sloane insists that Sydney be assigned if they want him to continue as a double agent--he wants the best. Jack objects, but Sydney overrides him, pointing out that their objectives are in line. If they are caught, they share the same fate--and if Sloane betrays her, she has the pleasure of killing him.

After the meeting, Jack pulls Vaughn aside, having gotten wind of Javier’s arrest. He suggests that Vaughn make an excuse to have Vaughn and Lauren beg off the case on the basis of conflict of interest. Vaughn objects to the interference and pushes Lauren as their best chance of keeping the NSC off their backs. Jack, however, is anything but confident of that possibility.

Marshall shows Sydney the op tech for her mission, including a special remote-controlled miniature car to disable the surveillance system and a cell phone to corrupt and copy the OS.

Sydney and Sloane attend the party in Beijing, where their host is convinced that they are having an affair. While Sloane chats with their host, Sydney releases the car and alerts Marshall. As Marshall works with Dixon looking over his shoulder, Sloane insists that they dance considering their host’s attention on them. Once Marshall disables the surveillance, they stage a quarrel so that Sydney can slip away for the rest of her mission. As she corrupts and downloads the OS, however, the surveillance team briefly spots her and attacks. She fends them off and completes her mission.

In Mexico, Vaughn and Lauren stop for a boy who has apparently been struck by a car--but as they approach, he gets up and pedals away. Well-armed mercenaries approach and take the pair into custody. One of them reports back to his contact who tells him that their payment will be in the confessional of a certain church, as arranged. The voice is clearly Jack’s. At the jail, Jack transfers a large bribe into the hands of the policeman and is left alone with Javier. He slowly approaches Javier’s cell.

When Lauren and Vaughn finally arrive at the jail, they discover that Javier has apparently hung himself. The policeman tells them that no one has visited.

On their way back from the mission, Sydney hands Sloane the corrupted chip as he reflects how often she must have done that on missions he assigned her. Sloane gives Sydney an envelope sent to him in her handwriting--apparently by Julia. Inside is a small envelope for Sydney containing a key and a numeric cipher.

When Vaughn returns from Mexico, he confronts Jack about their abduction and Javier’s murder. He knows who’s behind it. Jack stonewalls, knowing Vaughn hasn’t a shred of proof. Frustrated, Vaughn grabs Jack and threatens to kill him if he endangers Lauren again. Jack simply says, “And perhaps you finally understand the moral compromises you make when someone you love is in danger,” and pushes Vaughn off.

Meanwhile, in the parking garage, Lauren can’t start her car. It’s Sark, of course, bearing the news he meant Javier to pass along for him: the goods on Sydney. He leaves her sitting on a bomb.

Sydney’s having a repeat of her nightmare when Jack’s call spares her the icky tube part (isn’t that nice of him?). He’s solved the cipher included with the key. The cipher is also in Sydney’s handwriting, but she doesn’t recognize it. Jack does, however. It’s a cipher of Irina’s devising, one that she taught him during the year that they worked together. The message turns out to be an address in Rome, an apartment purchased about a year ago.

Vaughn rushes to the parking garage and hugs Lauren in relief. Lauren spills the news, that Julia Thorne and Sydney Bristow are one and the same--and watches Vaughn’s face. It’s obvious that this is not news to him. He tells her that he was ordered to keep the secret, but she’s angry that he kept it from her, his wife. Vaughn argues that the NSC will force Sydney to undergo neuro-stimulation, but Lauren insists that the NSC would never force such a procedure on a US citizen. Vaughn realizes that Lauren already reported the facts to her superiors and runs.

He calls Sydney as she deplanes and takes her to another plane he has ready. She decides to go to Rome. They say their tearful farewells and hug goodbye.

Dixon asks Vaughn where Sydney is, but he claims not to know. Jack realizes that Vaughn has helped her temporarily evade authorities and asks how far he would be willing to go to assist Sydney.

Meanwhile Lauren accompanies Dixon into his office and informs him that the NSC is taking over and Lindsey will arrive to assume control. The CIA office is under lockdown.

In Rome, Sydney checks out Julia’s apartment. As she lies down on the bed, she hears the flapping of wings and looks up through the skylight--at the stone angel from her dreams--atop a church. As splashes some water on her face and looks through the medicine cabinet, authorities break in and take her into custody.


Analysis . . .

This whole firestorm is set into motion by Sark, who has decided it’s time for Sydney to pay--for the injuries she inflicted on Allison (never mind that they were in self-defense) and the assassination of Lazarey, his father. After setting up Javier to pass on the information doesn’t work, he gives it to Lauren in person.

For Vaughn, trusting Lauren to do the right thing with respect to Sydney is a no-brainer. For Jack, it’s also a no-brainer--as in you’d have to lack a brain to assume that Lauren, an insecure ambitious woman, would automatically go against the organization that she works for, trusts in, and respects, to protect a woman she barely knows, who poses a threat to her marriage, and against whom there exists strong evidence of criminal activity. Jack once again sees Vaughn as naïve--and he’s exactly right. Lauren not only reports Sydney, but sees Vaughn’s withholding his knowledge of the facts from her--even under orders--as a personal betrayal of their commitment as husband and wife. Vaughn tells Jack that he knows Lauren better than Jack does and Jack responds “I would hope so,” but it turns out that Jack has a better handle on the situation, doesn’t it? Vaughn is looking through the eyes of who he wants his wife to be, not who she is. Jack has had the sad experience of finding out who his own wife is and realizing that his hopes for her and the reality of her are two very different things.

Moving on. Vaughn still doesn’t get it, does he? Even after all this time? After all of the morally questionable things that he’s seen Jack do for Sydney’s sake. Perhaps he just writes it off, thinking to himself that Jack’s just that kind of guy. He’s immoral. He cuts corners. Even after Sydney all but assassinated Sloane for his sake. But that was so easy to forget, wasn’t it? After Sark’s miraculous presto-chango, Sloane turned up alive and Vaughn could forget all about Sydney’s moral sacrifice. He still doesn’t get it. Until--maybe--until--he threatened to kill Jack--ironically enough--for Lauren’s sake. “And perhaps you finally understand the moral compromises you make when someone you love is in danger.” Point made. You’d think that by now it would have gotten across. All of the bending of the rules, all of the moral compromises Jack has made were for Sydney’s sake--not his own. They weren’t done because Jack enjoys doing things that way, or they were the easy way, but because Jack felt that he was pushed to the wall and they were the only way left to him. Jack pushes Vaughn away and Vaughn is left with no answer.

But when Lauren puts Sydney in danger, Vaughn remembers that Lauren isn’t the only person he cares about. If Sydney undergoes this procedure, she’ll end up as good as dead, won’t she? He does all he can, which is run to Sydney’s defense. He wants to kiss her goodbye, but balance that against the fact that he just threatened to kill Jack over what was--let’s face it--a comparatively mild threat to Lauren. The man is conflicted over affection for two women--yes, perhaps he loves Sydney better, but he’s married to Lauren, and he needs to make a choice. He can’t just tell himself he loves Lauren, stay married to her, and string Sydney along with a bunch of mixed signals. That’s Alice, only a thousand times worse because he’s made a formal commitment to Lauren and stringing Sydney along--or Lauren--at this point would simply be reprehensible. So he doesn’t want to hurt anyone. Someone’s going to be hurt whether he wants her to be or not. They’re both hurting already. Sorry about that.

Sloane is still working away on Sydney. The shoe really is on the other foot, isn’t it? He doesn’t like the Covenant using his organization as it pleases, sending him out on missions as it chooses. No doubt he returns a corrupted OS to them with a certain satisfaction, but the thought that Sydney so often subverted his own operation in similar fashion can only fill him with a sense of acute irony. But he got to handle the diplomatic end of the mission and leave the technical, sweaty end of it to Sydney. Plus--a dance with Sydney! Who could ask for more?

Ah, the message and code! The message clearly indicates that Julia knew about Sydney, even if Sydney knew nothing about Julia. This means that Julia also knowingly withheld knowledge of her existence from her father. Her sending of the encoded message to Sloane for Sydney indicates that she planned her retransformation into Sydney. That it was sent to Sloane means relatively little; she could not send it to Jack because he was in prison--no doubt his mail was being watched. She could feel confident that Sloane would not be able to decipher the message. In fact, that was probably why Sydney did not get the key until this moment: Sloane wanted to have a chance to decipher the message himself and figure out Sydney’s/Julia’s (and thereby, perhaps, Irina’s) game--perhaps even before she did.

Speaking of Irina . . . Irina taught this code to both Julia and Jack. The question is, did Julia use this code at this time as Irina’s agent? Or did she transfer this to herself as Sydney independently? This makes a great deal of difference in how “helpful” Irina is being. Obviously, because Sydney didn’t recognize the cipher but Julia used it, we can only assume that Irina taught her the cipher in her Julia persona. Could it have been someone else that Irina taught the cipher to (it was a cipher of her invention)? Maybe, but I doubt that she spreads it around widely--that would defeat the purpose.

Therefore, we can only draw the conclusion that Irina knew that Sydney was alive during the two-year period. However, when Jack told her that Sydney was alive, she pretended to be surprised. Did she know that Sydney was alive before Jack did? As I have theorized, I can only reiterate that it is very likely.

However, the fact that Irina taught the cipher to both Julia and Jack is a connecting thread that she knowingly placed through the three of them. If there’s any hope that she’s trying to extricate her daughter from a dangerous situation, that would be it. However, past experience leads us to take note that if there’s a dangerous situation on the landscape, Irina is more likely a formative cause than caught up in it somewhere. She is not above using her daughter to her own ends, but she also does not want to cause her daughter’s death. Perhaps she is treading both sides of this equation. Meanwhile, I can’t see her sending the message “Your daughter is alive. She is an assassin. Do nothing. The situation is too dangerous.” (Like that would work.) I see it as far more likely that Irina would set Jack’s imprisonment up to make sure that he could do nothing, perhaps somehow knowing that he found out. Or is this cipher-connection merely part of her plan? A way of transferring this valuable secret that Julia holds from the Covenant to the protection of the CIA. Does she intend that Sydney become Julia again now that she’s protected by the CIA? White king, red queen, white queen/red queen--Jack, Irina, Sydney/Julia (the pawn transformed into queen) . . .

No matter how you slice it, though, it’s clear that Irina knew that Sydney was alive but did not reveal that fact to Jack--or certainly that she found out. That she feigned surprise indicates that she probably knew earlier rather than later. Jack does not seem at all surprised by this turn of events, so this is probably what he expected to find out ever since he discovered that Sydney was alive. No doubt once he picked up the video Jack couldn’t picture any better than I could how Irina could fail to turn up a lead with her contacts. Irina’s cooperation is much more reliable in the event of Sydney’s death than her survival.

Setting the enigmatic Irina aside, what do we know about Julia? There is an important 1-year-ago period in her life. This is when the Lazarey assassination, the rental of KNG Microtech offices in London, the purchase of the Rome apartment, and Jack’s imprisonment all happened. It’s hard to believe that all of this activity is purely coincidental. She had some interaction with an elite group of thieves headed by Simon Walker--why? She’s an assassin, not a thief. She crossed paths with Irina--certainly long enough to learn that cipher. She’s aware of Sydney, and by extension the facts of Sydney’s life. Did she not care about that life? Her father? Vaughn? She was apparently tortured extensively by that Covenant doctor (You were my favorite). The med bottle is apparently some type of antibiotic (perhaps for that wound/scar?). But who she really is, what the Covenant wanted with her, and what her own plans were are currently as much a cipher as those numbers that appeared with her key.


Random thoughts . . .

What do you want to bet that Jack and Vaughn have already left the building? I don’t think the lockdown is going to find them locked down. Lindsey’s going to be sooo disappointed when he discovers he’s missed his old friend!

You think Jack wanted Javier to get a good look at him as he moved in? Remember, Javier knew exactly who he was. Trade info on my daughter, will you?

At last Sydney sees what neuro-stimulation really does! Not only does Jack want to prevent Sydney from undergoing it, but Vaughn, the CIA psychiatrist (death is an option) and Sydney herself now do too! Thank you and goodnight.

Those who decided that Sydney and Sark must fall into each other’s arms simply because they are both attractive people can now take a break. It ain’t gonna happen any time soon, folks. And this ain’t Buffy the Vampire Slayer, either. Sark ain’t Spike, he isn’t the romanticist Spike is, and Sydney isn’t--and isn’t likely to fall into--the same type of deep clinical depression that Buffy was in.

Speaking of Sark--where is his head? I thought he believed in self-preservation. His fingerprints are all over this and he must know that Jack will be ready to hunt him down and put him down like the rabid mongrel he is. He'd better hope Sydney survives with her mind intact! Just to give Jack some distraction.

I was kind of disappointed when Sydney didn’t get to go to Rome with Jack. It’s been so long since they’ve gotten to do something together . . . He’s a good lone wolf, but Bristow & Bristow are dynamite.

I had an additional thought, as I often do . . . what if Julia and any conspirators she had anticipated that the NSC would close in upon Sydney and knows that (and I'm making an assumption here, partially based on the title of episode 3:09) the neuro-stimulation process would bring about the re-emergence of the Julia personality in Sydney? Through means of a "breaking point," as it were? Was the Covenant doctor that Sydney killed involved in her transformation (not just torture)?


Discuss . . .

The tight hugs with Lauren; the near kiss with Sydney: do you agree that Vaughn is conflicted?

Do you think it’s natural for Lauren to feel betrayed? Do you think from a professional viewpoint, however, she should understand? What about the NSC? Do you understand their actions from the perspective of national security, or do you think it’s an overreaction based on interagency rivalry and Lindsey’s personal hatred of the Bristows?

What kind of “moral compromises” would you make for someone that you loved?

Why do you think Sloane didn’t pass along the key earlier? Do you think he wanted to try cracking the cipher himself? Do you think he succeeded?

Do you think Irina was involved in Sydney’s disappearance? In the creation of the Julia persona? In Sydney’s reappearance? All, or just some of these things?

Do you think Irina kept the fact of Sydney’s survival from Jack before he was imprisoned? Why do you think she lied about knowing about it after Jack told her Sydney was alive? And do you think Irina may have been behind Jack’s imprisonment?

Do you think Irina taught Jack her cipher so that Julia could use it to connect to Sydney? Do you think she means for Sydney to “become Julia” again? Do you see Julia as Irina’s agent?

Some speculate that Sloane and Irina are both involved in Sydney's disappearance. What do you think?


Next:
Jack initiates Operation Bristow! Always a good thing.


Oh yes . . . folks, because of Thanksgiving vacation, the next column will be delayed, probably by about a week. Sorry about that!


Modifications:
1) Random thought about neuro-stimulation.
2) Delay of next column
3) Random thought about the possible re-emergence of Julia via the neuro-stimulation procedure
 
Wow. As usual, your column is thought provoking, to say the least. Each week I look forward to your synopsis and analysis, and I am never disappointed. I must have checked the website 50 times this morning waiting for your essay to appear!

Yes, Vaughn is definitely conflicted. I think he loves Sydney, but is trying to honor his commitment to Lauren. No doubt he loves Lauren, cares for her, and, as her husband (and perhaps also out of guilt for his feelings for Sydney) wants to protect her. But I also think he has been naive about who Lauren really is, and who he wants her to be. Vaughn has always been a man of integrity, a man who keeps his word, tows the line, follows the rules...and now he finds himself in a no-win situation. Rules will have to be broken. One of these two women is going to get hurt, and he also will experience the pain of being responsible for it. What choices will he make? I keep wondering what advice his father would have given him? I personally would like to see Vaughn's character "come into himself", be stronger, more decisive, more.....like Jack??? (I must add that I do want to see S/V back together. I have found the whole marriage to Lauren thing rather weak).

I believe that Irina is behind Jack's imprisonment, that she worked with Julia, that she orchestrated Julia sending Sloane the key and cipher for Sydney, and that she somehow brought Sydney back to herself in Hong Kong...but why? Did she use her daughter as a way to get closer to the fulfillment of the Rambaldi prophecy? I think so...but also wanted to spare Sydney and protect her. Thus, the cipher that she taught Julia and Jack would keep them tied together.
 
excellent column as always, vh. we bow to you. (y)

This whole firestorm is set into motion by Sark...

who is working for himself, correct? because, like you said, he did set the whole thing off, but his only reasons seem to be to make Syd pay for what she did to the woman he loves (ick!), and to avenge the death of the father he never knew. that's awfully emotional of him, isn't it? what does he expect to gain from Sydney undergoing that scary neuro-stimulation thing?

you’d have to lack a brain to assume that Lauren, an insecure ambitious woman, would automatically go against the organization that she works for, trusts in, and respects, to protect a woman she barely knows, who poses a threat to her marriage, and against whom there exists strong evidence of criminal activity.

hear hear! it was the natural thing for Lauren to do, even though it cast her in the role of the Big Bad Wolf for the remainder of this episode.

it still seems to me that Vaughn and Jack's relationship hasn't changed much since the last two seasons, with the both of them arguing over Sydney, and now, Lauren. One reason I think that they never collaborated together to find Sydney during those two years was that Vaughn was too emotionally involved (and he still is, only now there's that damn love triangle thrown into the equation), and it's easier for Jack to compartmentalize and think rationally. Vaughn wants to help, obviously, but he finds himself having to choose sides now--his wife or his ex-girlfriend.

Her sending of the encoded message to Sloane for Sydney indicates that she planned her retransformation into Sydney.

But how did she know that she could go back to being Sydney? she didn't just wake up after the Allison fight and go, "oh yeah, I was Sydney, but I'm Julia now...", did she? :confused:

I'll try to answer the rest of the questions later, but right now my head is still spinning... ^_^
 
Those who decided that Sydney and Sark must fall into each other’s arms simply because they are both attractive people can now take a break. It ain’t gonna happen any time soon, folks. And this ain’t Buffy the Vampire Slayer, either. Sark ain’t Spike, he isn’t the romanticist Spike is, and Sydney isn’t--and isn’t likely to fall into--the same type of deep clinical depression that Buffy was in.


Personally, it is pretty ridiculous to think of putting Sydney and Sark together, and I don't think "Buffy" can hold a candle to "Alias" in terms of the smartness of the show. But then again, I may be a tad older than many of the members here! I am not a Buffy fan at all.
 
aliasmom said:
Those who decided that Sydney and Sark must fall into each other’s arms simply because they are both attractive people can now take a break. It ain’t gonna happen any time soon, folks. And this ain’t Buffy the Vampire Slayer, either. Sark ain’t Spike, he isn’t the romanticist Spike is, and Sydney isn’t--and isn’t likely to fall into--the same type of deep clinical depression that Buffy was in.


Personally, it is pretty ridiculous to think of putting Sydney and Sark together, and I don't think "Buffy" can hold a candle to "Alias" in terms of the smartness of the show. But then again, I may be a tad older than many of the members here! I am not a Buffy fan at all.
Amazing column as always VH!
I agree that Lauren only did what was natural in her situation, and that Vaughn was blinded by his emotions. But, though I would like to see Vaughn become stronger and start owning his emotions and decisions, I think it would be upsetting to see him become as closed off as Jack. Jack may be strong and I certainly love him for all he has done and is willing to do for Sydney, but his personality has been shaped by some extremely painful experiences and his actions may not always have been for the best.

Oh, and in response to the above I just thought that I would mention that Buffy and Alias are two extremely different shows that are (or were) often excellent in very different ways. Age, however had very little do with who watched Buffy - it was a show that I as a seventeen year old could watch with my parents and read about in articles and essays written by scholars, professors, and critics alike. Liking Buffy, or Alias for that matter, has little to do with age and everything to do with individuals. Both shows are/were sometimes smart, sometimes predictable, occasionally dissapointing, but mostly enjoyable. Your opinion of them however, will depend on your own personal taste.
 
As usual VH, great column! Now onto the questions...

The tight hugs with Lauren; the near kiss with Sydney: do you agree that Vaughn is conflicted?

Yes, he is. You can see that he still loves Sydney and only moved onto Lauren because he thought Sydney was dead. Why? Why Vaughn did you have to marry Lauren?!?! Grrr...if you hadn't, there could've been a ton of S/V scenes already!

Do you think it’s natural for Lauren to feel betrayed? Do you think from a professional viewpoint, however, she should understand? What about the NSC? Do you understand their actions from the perspective of national security, or do you think it’s an overreaction based on interagency rivalry and Lindsey’s personal hatred of the Bristows?

I don't think Lauren should feel betrayed...it was orders after all. But I can sort of see where she from. After all, Sydney didn't listen to orders in A Dark Turn did she? I guess Lauren expected Vaughn would tell her anyways. From a professional viewpoint, she should understand, but this is personal to her as Vaughn and Lauren are unfortunately married.

Other agents have been missing for periods of time, and never recovered their memories, and never been forced to take that surgery to recover their memories...so, is it just because some group out there wants whatever's in Syd's head that makes her so different?

What kind of “moral compromises” would you make for someone that you loved?

If I truly loved someone, I would be willing to kill to ensure their safety, much like Jack.

Why do you think Sloane didn’t pass along the key earlier? Do you think he wanted to try cracking the cipher himself? Do you think he succeeded?

I think he wanted to try to crack the cipher himself and try to redeem himself in Sydney's eyes. No idea if he autually cracked it though.

Do you think Irina was involved in Sydney’s disappearance? In the creation of the Julia persona? In Sydney’s reappearance? All, or just some of these things?

Maybe, but I don't like to think that my favorite SpyMommy could have something to do with her disappearance? Maybe Irina taught the code to someone else and they taught it to Syd-as-Julia?

Do you think Irina kept the fact of Sydney’s survival from Jack before he was imprisoned? Why do you think she lied about knowing about it after Jack told her Sydney was alive? And do you think Irina may have been behind Jack’s imprisonment?

Maybe...

Do you think Irina taught Jack her cipher so that Julia could use it to connect to Sydney? Do you think she means for Sydney to “become Julia” again? Do you see Julia as Irina’s agent?

Hmm...Irina and Sydney-as-Julia working together...

Some speculate that Sloane and Irina are both involved in Sydney's disappearance. What do you think?

Could be...but why does no one even consider that Sloane may be good?
 
Why do you think Sloane didn’t pass along the key earlier? Do you think he wanted to try cracking the cipher himself? Do you think he succeeded?

Do you think Irina was involved in Sydney’s disappearance? In the creation of the Julia persona? In Sydney’s reappearance? All, or just some of these things?

Do you think Irina kept the fact of Sydney’s survival from Jack before he was imprisoned? Why do you think she lied about knowing about it after Jack told her Sydney was alive? And do you think Irina may have been behind Jack’s imprisonment?

Do you think Irina taught Jack her cipher so that Julia could use it to connect to Sydney? Do you think she means for Sydney to “become Julia” again? Do you see Julia as Irina’s agent?

Some speculate that Sloane and Irina are both involved in Sydney's disappearance. What do you think?













well it does sound lickly that yet again irina is up to something however im thinkin more along the lines that all this is slone's doing




Irina could have taught slone that code during season 2 (or sark did becuz sark probly knew the code becuz he worked so close to irina)

slone got the key to julia's/sydney's apartment becuz hes been working for the covenant all along(and think about the covenant seem to have started shortly before sydney disappred maby slone is acually the leader of the covenant i wouldnt be surpirsed i mean we all know he hasnt turned over a new leaf hes up to something



and lastly sydney's/julia's handwriting could have been faked by slone becuz u can fake someone elses handwriting with enough practice and tecnique



anyway im think more along the lines that this could be slone trying to play sydney .
 
Excellent analysis, verdantheart, as always! As I was watching the show I was thinking what great columns you would write for it. ^_^ Can't wait to read your Spydad column!

Do you think Irina was involved in Sydney’s disappearance? In the creation of the Julia persona? In Sydney’s reappearance? All, or just some of these things?

Do you think Irina kept the fact of Sydney’s survival from Jack before he was imprisoned? Why do you think she lied about knowing about it after Jack told her Sydney was alive? And do you think Irina may have been behind Jack’s imprisonment?

Do you think Irina taught Jack her cipher so that Julia could use it to connect to Sydney? Do you think she means for Sydney to “become Julia” again? Do you see Julia as Irina’s agent?

God, I just don't know. I just...don't know. :blink: It seems there is just too much evidence pointing to the fact that Irina and Syd-as-Julia were in contact at some point during the missing years, which in all likelihood means Irina had to have lied to Jack, at least during their IM conversation. I suppose it's possible she didn't find out Sydney was alive until after Jack was imprisoned, but that means she still lied to him when he told her Sydney was alive during their chat. Although I *still* am holding out hope that whatever Irina's involvement in all of this is, somehow, in her own twisted way, she was doing what she thought best in the long run for Sydney. But at this point, I find it difficult to speculate on exactly what that might be. I just don't have enough information to figure out what in the heck I think is going on! Yeah, some clear-cut answers would be nice right about now...though I don't expect any until the season finale - if that. ;)
 
HEY, ooh what a column. And so much about Irina....and we've not seen her or heard from her... :angelic:

The tight hugs with Lauren; the near kiss with Sydney: do you agree that Vaughn is conflicted?

Oooh boy is he ever. For a minute there I thought they were going to kiss...but thank God, cooler heads prevailed. Sorry Sydney...can't you find someone else? :eek:

Do you think it’s natural for Lauren to feel betrayed? Do you think from a professional viewpoint, however, she should understand? What about the NSC? Do you understand their actions from the perspective of national security, or do you think it’s an overreaction based on interagency rivalry and Lindsey’s personal hatred of the Bristows?

Of course she feels that betrayal. :( She's been under emotional fire ever since Sydney returned from the dead. She'd be an awfully cold woman not to feel her emotions came first. There has to be a villan somewhere in Alias and for the moment NSC is it since Arvin Sloane seems to be treading the waters of innocence. Given the current situation in Washington, interagency rivalry seems a good possibility PLUS Lindsey who's taken on the opposite persona of Sloane (So cold, sly, cunning and murderous) Lindsey is much more excitable, devious and emotionally caught up with his power.


What kind of “moral compromises” would you make for someone that you loved?
I would be exactly like Jack! We see this a lot although not as vividly portrayed. People who will do almost anything to protect their loved ones...either heroically or without any "moral compromise." :Ph34r: VH, I agree that scene between Jack and Vaughn was terrific.

Why do you think Sloane didn’t pass along the key earlier? Do you think he wanted to try cracking the cipher himself? Do you think he succeeded?

Oh I think he might have tried. <_< The envelope was open. I'm not sure if he succeeded or not. I think he tried otherwise he would have passed it on to her at their first meeting. I don't believe he would have done it in the presence of anyone else, i.e. Lauren, Vaughn.

Do you think Irina was involved in Sydney’s disappearance? In the creation of the Julia persona? In Sydney’s reappearance? All, or just some of these things?

It's interesting that you have drawn up 4 questions to discuss regarding Irina, yet her name was mentioned only once during the entire episode. SO that said, I have at one time believed Irina was involved in Sydney's disappearance and possibly what happened later.
It is also possible that she did not have anything to do with the actual retrieval of Sydney from the apt. after Allison was shot. Her interaction with Julia/Sydney could have happened after Jack contacted her. We do not know the actual timeline: i.e. How long before Jack contacted her to tell her about Sydney's "murder." Was it one, two, three weeks, months? We know that Jack spent 1 year in solitary. So the interaction had to happen sometime during that first year...when?
So that said, I will say that she DID not have anything to do with her disappearance, BUT once she knew Sydney was "murdered" she used ALL of her contacts, influence etc to find Sydney's murderers and found her alive. She is Russian and STILL with connections to the criminal world. I think she found Sydney under the care "of the doctor" and probably took her OR had something to do with her creation of Julia persona. I also believe she put her into the Hong Kong site to get her back to where she would be in CIA's protection. She did not consider Lindsey and the NSC being obstructive. BUT knowing JJ. who knows what he had in mind or plans to do.

Do you think Irina kept the fact of Sydney’s survival from Jack before he was imprisoned? Why do you think she lied about knowing about it after Jack told her Sydney was alive? And do you think Irina may have been behind Jack’s imprisonment?

Again we need a time line. Assumption of anything involving who what why and where is pure guessing. There is a possibility she didn't know until after Jack was imprisoned. I don't believe she was behind Jack's imprisonment. She could have found out after he went to prison and when he told her via the computer her response was, we both think, not total surprise. "My God! How is she?" In other words she knew and wanted to know how she was after the scary return from Hong Kong. :confused:

Do you think Irina taught Jack her cipher so that Julia could use it to connect to Sydney? Do you think she means for Sydney to “become Julia” again? Do you see Julia as Irina’s agent?

Irina told Sydney in The Telling that she was the one in the Prophecy not her. She knew something that no one else knew. Sydney believed her visit to Mt. Suribasi had relieved her of the Prophecy's responsibility which she thot was now her mother. So saying, two things could be discussed further. (1) She lied and she is the woman in the Prophecy, which I doubt or (2) Sydney is it and Irina intended to extricate her daughter from the hands of the Covenant. :Ph34r:
She knows a great deal more than anyone about what will or might happen. She loves her daughter, that isn't a lie and I think she loves :love: Jack in her own way. She could use Sydney as an agent and there was a deeper reason than we know behind the death of Lazeray and anyone else at the hands of Julia. -_- BTW the throat slitting technique is quite reminecent of Irina's.

Some speculate that Sloane and Irina are both involved in Sydney's disappearance. What do you think?

Only if Sloane is the mastermind of the Covenant then he indeed was behind Syd's disappearance.:abduct: That came so close on the heels of Sloane's disappearance and Irina's incredible escape that it would be hard to believe either would have had time. BUT given that Allison probably did call between the time she supposedly killed Will and when Sydney came home, that someone certainly had time to get men to the apartment. Irina was on the outs with Sloane so her working with him to do this I wouldn't believe.

Whew! But then Nothing Is As It Seems on Alias. :woot:

Great column and of course everything has been marching toward another BOOMING climax or anticlimax.

Your #1 fan :cool:
 
Amazing column as usual VH!!! ;) To the chat!!!!.........................

What do you want to bet that Jack and Vaughn have already left the building? I don’t think the lockdown is going to find them locked down. Lindsey’s going to be sooo disappointed when he discovers he’s missed his old friend!

totally !!! :D :D ;)

this ain’t Buffy the Vampire Slayer, either.
again agree - syd and sark - never gonna happen!!

I was kind of disappointed when Sydney didn’t get to go to Rome with Jack. It’s been so long since they’ve gotten to do something together . . . He’s a good lone wolf, but Bristow & Bristow are dynamite.
i was also dissappointed about this. I'm now left wondering if jack will find time to go to the address and hunt for clues??

The tight hugs with Lauren; the near kiss with Sydney: do you agree that Vaughn is conflicted?
god yes!! but i still believe he'll always put Syd first and not just because i'm a die hard s/v fan but cos he always did just as she did for him but Lauren bailed on him the first chance she got - shes loyal to the NSC before her husband and he knows that now!!!
<!--SPOILER BEGIN--><div onclick="openClose('cfcec444e9f40f4c40cd20dd436a40e3')" style="font-weight: bold">Click For Spoiler</div><div id="cfcec444e9f40f4c40cd20dd436a40e3" style="display:none"><!--SPOILER END-->ok, maybe only until next weeks episode but whatever, Vaughn will remember this - i hope!<!--SPOILER DIV--></div><!--SPOILER DIV-->

Do you think it’s natural for Lauren to feel betrayed? Do you think from a professional viewpoint, however, she should understand? What about the NSC? Do you understand their actions from the perspective of national security, or do you think it’s an overreaction based on interagency rivalry and Lindsey’s personal hatred of the Bristows?
I can kind of understand how she must feel - i mean it's not like she was faced with the same dilemma as vaughn whe it came to telling people about syd - she doesn't love syd right!? so she just does her job. But it kind of annoyed me that she therefore expected Vaughn NOT to do his. She was mad that he'd kept the secret Dixon ordered him too, when really she should have understood. However - it's easy to see how she would be annoyed as it involve Sydney and lets face it who wouldn't be a bit miffed if their husband was protecting their ex, even if it was an order!

Why do you think Sloane didn’t pass along the key earlier? Do you think he wanted to try cracking the cipher himself? Do you think he succeeded?
tough question. and one i have no answer for. i can only answer with another question - why does sloane do anything he does?? for me he (and irina) and the enigmas of the show - u never know why/where/how/what they are up to really. and although i love speculating i hardly ever come up with any answers.

Do you think Irina was involved in Sydney’s disappearance? In the creation of the Julia persona? In Sydney’s reappearance? All, or just some of these things? Do you think Irina kept the fact of Sydney’s survival from Jack before he was imprisoned? Why do you think she lied about knowing about it after Jack told her Sydney was alive? And do you think Irina may have been behind Jack’s imprisonment?
to all of the above i'll say possibly.

Do you think Irina taught Jack her cipher so that Julia could use it to connect to Sydney? Do you think she means for Sydney to “become Julia” again? Do you see Julia as Irina’s agent?
I like this idea - that Julia worked for Irina somehow - mother and daughter together. But i'm not sure about it. The cipher definitely indicates that Julia and Irina met......or at least it seems to. I hope Syd will become Julia again - if its all related to the prophecy then i think she will become her agian cos it seems Julia is a little more equiped to cause some desolation!

Some speculate that Sloane and Irina are both involved in Sydney's disappearance. What do you think?
yeah - since ark, sloane and irina were all in cahoots over the whole rambaldi artifacts i think they may have been involved in her dissappearance - but if thats the case then they are involved with the covenant - and were in season 2! maybe it's sloanes new bad gang - the new alliance! and sloane is the leader (but pretends to be good!) I still think irina and sark may be working with him now!!!!


Next:
Jack initiates Operation Bristow! Always a good thing.

i couldn't agree more!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :lol: :D :lol: :D :lol: :D
Roll on the next episode!!!!
 
jems Posted on Nov 12 2003, 11:40 AM
I still think irina and sark may be working with him now!!!!

I have to disagree.
First, Sark is working for the Covenant and is not above getting even with SYDNEY for killing his father and causing damage to Allison. :angry:

Second, Irina was going to double cross Sloane in giving Sydney access to the warehouse where the Rambaldi artifacts were stored, but Sloane suspecting the double cross reversed it and Irina ended up being at the wrong end of Sydney's trust. I don't think she would work for or with him. :confused:

Third: If Sloane is indeed the man behind the Covenant he wouldn't tell or let on to either Sark or Irina. If Irina is behind the Covenant, she would make it clear that Sydney/Julia was untouchable by anyone, including Sark.
Fourth: Irina's agenda is hers and not anyone else's. :Ph34r:
I wouldn't, if I were her, trust anyone but myself in this devious world of spying.
:cool:
 
lenafan said:
We do not know the actual timeline: i.e. How long before Jack contacted her to tell her about Sydney's "murder." Was it one, two, three weeks, months? We know that Jack spent 1 year in solitary. So the interaction had to happen sometime during that first year...when?
So that said, I will say that she DID not have anything to do with her disappearance, BUT once she knew Sydney was "murdered" she used ALL of her contacts, influence etc to find Sydney's murderers and found her alive. She is Russian and STILL with connections to the criminal world. I think she found Sydney under the care "of the doctor" and probably took her OR had something to do with her creation of Julia persona. I also believe she put her into the Hong Kong site to get her back to where she would be in CIA's protection. She did not consider Lindsey and the NSC being obstructive. BUT knowing JJ. who knows what he had in mind or plans to do.
Certainly Irina knew immediately that Sydney was dead even if Jack didn't tell her. We know how close an eye she kept on Sydney--she always seemed to know where Sydney was let alone whether she was dead or alive! And I think Jack would at least do the mother of his daughter the courtesy of letting her know that Sydney died--I think I know Jack that well--if nothing else. And even if they weren't working together at this point, if Irina thought Sydney dead, don't you think she would begin tracking down the facts on her own? With her location and resources I think she'd have an advantage over Jack.

She could have found out after he went to prison and when he told her via the computer her response was, we both think, not total surprise. "My God! How is she?" In other words she knew and wanted to know how she was after the scary return from Hong Kong. :confused:
Then why not "I know. How is she!?"?

Second, Irina was going to double cross Sloane in giving Sydney access to the warehouse where the Rambaldi artifacts were stored,
I don't think the artifacts were ever there. The idea of saying they were there was to reveal that the NSA lost the other artifacts and force the Di Regno heart into the open. But Sloane got to it first and made away with Irina's stash--boo hoo. She didn't count on his return (and maybe Sark helping him out?).


As a side note, I forgot to mention that--sadly--the next column will almost certainly be delayed a week due to Thanksgiving vacation and a relative lack of internet access.

;)
 
I like how your mind works.... it doesn't make me feel so crazy..... As for the questions and answers.....

Do you think Irina was involved in Sydney’s disappearance? In the creation of the Julia persona? In Sydney’s reappearance? All, or just some of these things?

--- I don't believe she was involved in the disappearance of Sydney or the creation of the Julia persona. It's possible but I think through her own criminal activities they worked together but never met. They then crossed paths and that is how Irina discovered her daughter was alive as Julia. Once she realized Julia was Syd, she began working on a way to get her out of that situation and back to her life as Syd. She taught her the cipher, instructed her to send it to Sloane, and then "extracted" her and dropped her in Hong Kong. Which leads me to believe that Sloane may have known about Julia/Syd as well. I think Irina knew Sloane (because of his own feelings for Syd) would give her the key.

Do you think Irina kept the fact of Sydney’s survival from Jack before he was imprisoned? Why do you think she lied about knowing about it after Jack told her Sydney was alive? And do you think Irina may have been behind Jack’s imprisonment?

--- I do believe Irina kept it from Jack before he was sent to prison. That is why she taught him the code. Because she knew Syd would go to Jack for help. I think she lied to him as a means of not implicating herself in the Convenent. Irina always has her own motives. I don't think she was behind the imprisonment but I believe she knew that it would be a consequence, that's why she taught him the code and had Julia send the key with the code. Again... because she knew Syd would go to Jack.

Do you think Irina taught Jack her cipher so that Julia could use it to connect to Sydney? Do you think she means for Sydney to “become Julia” again? Do you see Julia as Irina’s agent?

--- I would hope she didn't do it as a means for Syd to become Julia again. I believe she did it to enable Sydney to find out what happened to her in those two missing years. And as far as Julia being Irina's agent, it's possible.....


In closing, I have my own questions and miscellaneous thoughts but I have to rest my mind.... or I may go crazy with these running through my head.....
 
What lack of internet access? Thanksgiving. Oh dear GOD, no Verdantheart fix for the week! :( I take it this means after the 23rd episode)
OK so you have to do the relative thing and go away for a holiday. I understand. Have a good one.
:cool:
 
verdantheart Posted on Nov 12 2003, 03:35 PM
Certainly Irina knew immediately that Sydney was dead even if Jack didn't tell her. We know how close an eye she kept on Sydney--she always seemed to know where Sydney was let alone whether she was dead or alive! And I think Jack would at least do the mother of his daughter the courtesy of letting her know that Sydney died--I think I know Jack that well--if nothing else. And even if they weren't working together at this point, if Irina thought Sydney dead, don't you think she would begin tracking down the facts on her own? With her location and resources I think she'd have an advantage over Jack.

i HAVE ALWAYS THOT THAT Irina knew where Sydney was at all times ;) She has to have someone at CIA to tell her. So maybe she learned from that person Sydney was "dead". So where was Irina? She escaped, but where too! Russia. You (and I also) have speculated that she was involved in a deep cover operation. I have thot too she was with the SVR. And yes, Jack would have, but immediately? :( I think his grief would be such he would not have done it the next day...
Yes, she would start her own inquiries.

Then why not "I know. How is she!?"?

Because you and I know Irina has her own agenda AND she knows that Sydney is the key to the Prophecy. She is keeping a tight lid on what it is (agenda). No one is privy to that.

I don't think the artifacts were ever there. The idea of saying they were there was to reveal that the NSA lost the other artifacts and force the Di Regno heart into the open.

Still Irina risked losing more of SYdney's trust by sending her there. :( She walked in in order to gain that trust. She lost it with that fiasco. No I think she thought that's where they were...not just to force the Di Regno heart out of NSA's hands.
There is so much none of us know about Irina and her connection to The Prophecy and Sydney's role in destroying Sloane's evil plans. I don't trust (n) him as does Sydney.

#1 fan :cool:
 
verdantheart Posted on Nov 13 2003, 12:06 PM
I had an additional thought, as I often do . . . what if Julia and any conspirators she had anticipated that the NSC would close in upon Sydney and knows that (and I'm making an assumption here, partially based on the title of episode 3:09) the neuro-stimulation process would bring about the re-emergence of the Julia personality in Sydney? Through means of a "breaking point," as it were? Was the Covenant doctor that Sydney killed involved in her transformation (not just torture)?

The doctor told her she was, I think, (his best pupil). I think he was involved first in torture (You never broke), then in the transformation after the torture may have brought her to the "breaking point" and therefore made her more pliable to assuming the Julia identity.
So is it your thought that Julia made Sydney's return to Hong Kong
necessary? That's pretty risky on the Julia character's persona: hoping that neurostimulation would bring out Julia again. It could have the same effect as it did on the other CIA agent who agreed to the process. We are getting pretty deep into the psychological theories. Perhaps deeper than J.J. intends.
Did Irina have anything to do with the process? OR did she rescue Sydney from Julia and see to it she got to Hong Kong and back to Jack and the CIA. Maybe she didn't anticipate Lindsey and Lauren's involvement.
:cool:
 
I'm just lobbing out possibilities here . . . you gotta admit, it's pretty wide open on the other side of the net where we really can't see what's going on (where Julia, the Covenant doctor, Irina, Sloane's plots, and all that is going on) . . . Speculation is fun.

It seems that Julia probably knew that the Covenant would be after her (as Sydney). And it seems logical that her identity as an assassin--not exactly a big secret among Covenant forces--is not the safest of secrets and therefore something vulnerable to the NSC. The threat of neuro-stimulation, therefore (especially since I'd suspect that Julia knew about Jack's imprisonment and therefor Lindsey's vendetta against him), is not something that would be an incredible stretch of the imagination.

In fact, that might mollify those who can't believe that Sark would turn in Sydney for revenge--perhaps he's not. Perhaps he's acting as someone's agent--perhaps Irina's? Perhaps he's doing this to force her to undergo the neuro-stimulation. ----And perhaps if Jack's team makes it in time and interrupts the process, the retransformation won't be complete and Sydney has a chance against Julia? OK, now my head hurts . . .
;)
 
verdantheart ;) Posted on Nov 14 2003, 09:30 AM
logical that her identity as an assassin--not exactly a big secret among Covenant forces--is not the safest of secrets and therefore something vulnerable to the NSC. [/QUOTE
One thing to go along with your theory>>remember the scene in the elevator when Vaughn and Sydney were going down and there was a soldier inside. I mean he didn't look like a Covenant guy, just an ordinary soldier going down for guard duty...remember how he looked at Sydney (probably recognizing Julia)...I also wondered about that piece of action. Somehow I sense the fine hand of Mom somewhere in the background.

OK, now my head hurts . . .
:o_O:

Nothing is as it seems on our favorite show.:banghead:

:cool:
 
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