The Solo vs Group experience

[Valendros]

I find the fact that every game I try is a direct WOW clone. The way to beat WOW isn't to make a game just like it in an effort to strip people off it and come join your game.

The way to be WOW is to be revolutionary. To be unique, and do something that people didn't know they wanted. WOW is popular in the west, not for grouping, but because it's easy. It's a sandbox game. Anybody can play. There's no strategy, there's no challenge. Every single mob pull in FFXI was strategic, every critter killed was a challenge. You learned to appreciate end-game relative ease by how bloody difficult the start was. YOU gathered experience along with your character.

I think that's why it's so popular in Japan, they are a higher-brained people in general. They appreciate the strategy and challenge it brings to the table. They appreciate the social aspect of groups as well.

No offense Valendros because you did bring up a good debate but I think you are examining this issue too personally, assuming your opinion is the best way to develop a game.

I'm not trying to sound personal, but of course it is a very personal issue for me. I'm playing a bloody 19 year old MUD right now because nothing else offers what I'm looking for: Roleplaying. So called "RP" servers on every game I've tried are a joke. There are major problems with Gemstone, and after 13 years of playing, there is nothing that can surprise me anymore about it.

No game I've seen can keep my interest. FFXI did a decent job of that but I had to have two characters going at once to stay remotely entertained, and I had so many jobs leveled my job select screen looked like the obituary column. It took me two years to get one job to max level in FFXI. And when I did, I was so proud of my accomplishment I made a video out of some of the 10,000 screenshots I'd taken over the years (it was recently pulled from YouTube, thanks YouTube for getting so big you're a target... jerks). I loved my little Tarus and it hurt when I deleted the account.

I just want a game that will pique my interest again. And none of the games out there so far have come close. And it's not that I haven't given them a shot to do so; I have.

So I'm back to Gemstone. Script grinding to get to a high enough level to be taken seriously with my RP style. And even now, when I get one person to come group with me, it's the happiest time of my day. But poor game design keeps it from happening often.


So as I said, it's hard to not take this issue personally. But I keep to my thought that a great, well thought out, brilliantly executed game design that:
A) takes away the commitment to your group (via taking away the struggle to find a member / group)
B) takes away the demanding and disruptive players from the group (via allowing you to group with anyone, regardless of level of skill so you can group with friends all the time)
C) takes away the stress of not having enough time to group (by making it fast & easy to get to/from your group)
D) removes the detriments to grouping (via group drops, and a scalable treasure system so you get more treasure, easier when in a group)
E) promotes group forming, building, and leveling, so you take pride in your group accomplishments as well as your solo accomplishments (by instituting a group ranking system, a group level, and built-in data parsing)
F) then forces people to give grouping a try (via large bonuses to xp gain, treasure finding, and/or time - making it faster to group than to solo)

If a game can do all that, and create an immersive, engaging, strategic and difficult game where you actually feel accomplishment for the things you've done, and the things you've helped your group to do. I believe they will finally get rid of this "go kill 5 boars solo" BS WOW mechanic that has plagued games since Blizzard thought it up.

 

[Sherri_CinVin]

Well that's a game I will never play
To me thats forced grouping to do quests just to get the large bonuses and better loot.
Not everyone has the time to do these sort of quests.
I feel a lot of accomplishment in the things I do in game as a solo player in all the games I have played. I do group for some of the big quests if I want a item I can't get any other way.
Good luck finding a game that suits your game style
Maybe you should develope one and see how many come out and play.

 

[Valendros]

It is really very depressing that you are all so stuck in this WOW model.

Perhaps it's not game design, but customer expectations that I'm trying to fight here.


I'll say this once, and I'll try to make it sink in.

THERE IS MORE TO A GAME THAN A PERPETUALLY FULL QUEST LOG.


Just try to chant that to yourself. And remember the only thing I'm trying to talk about here is grouping. I'll open new threads with the rest of what's wrong with the WOW model later.

 

[HJ-Diviana]

I think that's why it's so popular in Japan, they are a higher-brained people in general.

There is this belief that certain people are smarter than others. That we are all smarter than people hundreds, thousands of years ago. We're NOT.

It really just has to do with upbringing. Give our kids stricter rules (that are enforced, kids know too well if they can get away with it they will) and better schools/teachers and they would be just as smart.

 

[Valendros]

There is this belief that certain people are smarter than others. That we are all smarter than people hundreds, thousands of years ago. We're NOT.

It really just has to do with upbringing. Give our kids stricter rules (that are enforced, kids know too well if they can get away with it they will) and better schools/teachers and they would be just as smart.

I never said that genetics had anything to do with it.

Japanese as a people, generally, are much (MUCH) smarter than Americans. It has nothing to do with genetics, and everything to do with upbringing & culture. However, that doesn't change that fact in the slightest.

 

[Evran]

Re: Bettering The Group experience

A) takes away the commitment to your group (via taking away the struggle to find a member / group)
B) takes away the demanding and disruptive players from the group (via allowing you to group with anyone, regardless of level of skill so you can group with friends all the time)
C) takes away the stress of not having enough time to group (by making it fast & easy to get to/from your group)
D) removes the detriments to grouping (via group drops, and a scalable treasure system so you get more treasure, easier when in a group)
E) promotes group forming, building, and leveling, so you take pride in your group accomplishments as well as your solo accomplishments (by instituting a group ranking system, a group level, and built-in data parsing)
F) then forces people to give grouping a try (via large bonuses to xp gain, treasure finding, and/or time - making it faster to group than to solo)

These suggestions are good, if a bit idealistic, for those that desire grouping and having those interactions in the first place. However, there had better darn well be the possibility of effective solo play in addition to that. Without that, I will not touch the game. From the sounds of it, your perfect game would be nothing more than junk pile trash for me.

As a side note... your suggestion B) assumes someone has friends in game to group with. In most games I have one or two people I chat with. If that. My friends lists usually consist of zero people. As an extreme, In Guild Wars I've never even sent a single chat message in any form in the year or so I've played. Ever. I basically play MMOs as single player games with perhaps one or two people to chat with once in a while. What interaction I have is usually on the forums for each game rather than in game itself. It is what I actively seek out doing simply because I enjoy doing it. I don't do it because I'm jaded by bad grouping mechanics as you've assumed is the case for everyone who solos.

I changed the title of my post to better reflect what you are saying. Leave us solo players out of it.

-Evran

 

[Valendros]

Re: Bettering The Group experience

B) assumes someone has friends in game to group with. In most games I have one or two people I chat with. If that. My friends lists usually consist of zero people.

You solo, of course you have no friends.

 

[HJ-Pinnelipe]

What is the point to playing mmorpgs as single player games? Let's face it..most mmos (all I've seen, actually) do NOT live up to single player experiences. To have that many out and in the field at the same time, things have to be simplified. Not only would adding as many things graphically as single player games bog things down, but the more complex you get mechanics wise, the more you run the risk of it having unforeseen complications. In the mmo world, there are already so many things yapping for attention to get done for the next patch..every time another problem comes up, there's another section taxed for an answer in the smallest possible time frame! It's one big WOOSH! So, the mechanics are kept as simply as possible so less things can crop up and nothing gets QUITE the amount of work that the single player ones get because of the rush and other considerations added...

I am not saying single player games are better than mmos. I do think that the social interaction is what makes mmos unique from them, though, and not just some flat game.

 

[Evran]

Re: Bettering the Group experience

What is the point to playing mmorpgs as single player games?

I do think that the social interaction is what makes mmos unique from them, though, and not just some flat game.

See the second paragraph in my first post in this thread (post#2) for an answer to your question. Social interaction does not equate exclusively with grouping.

You solo, of course you have no friends.

Thinly veiled insults do nothing to make your ideas have more merit, nor do they add to a discussion.

Since you seem unwilling to entertain opinions that differ from your own, I'll stop posting mine. Its rather amusing really, since I am agreeing with your basic idea when it is applicable, just not as an all-encompassing blanket statement.

=}=

-Evran

 

[Valendros]

Re: Bettering the Group experience

B) assumes someone has friends in game to group with. In most games I have one or two people I chat with. If that. My friends lists usually consist of zero people.

You solo, of course you have no friends.

Thinly veiled insults do nothing to make your ideas have more merit, nor do they add to a discussion.

How was that an insult? YOU Said you had no friends. YOU have been championing soloing. I was simply telling you that the two are completely and absolutely linked together.

Besides, calling my ideal game (and basically all my ideas for it) a "junk pile trash" wasn't exactly what I'd call sweet.

Since you seem unwilling to entertain opinions that differ from your own, I'll stop posting mine. Its rather amusing really, since I am agreeing with your basic idea when it is applicable, just not as an all-encompassing blanket statement.

=}=

-Evran

I am not unwilling to entertain that people enjoy soloing. You are unwilling to entertain that a major contributing factor in the reason people want to solo at all is simply because of the poor game mechanics that exist in current games. Game mechanics that prevent good, guilt free, well-designed social interaction.


But hey, forums are serious business so I'll let you go and all. But I was enjoying the perspective and enjoying trying to come up with ways to make so-called 'soloers' enjoy a group experience better. And who better to aid me in the struggle than a staunch soloer that can't see any opinion other than his own?

 

[Valendros]

AutoCAD. I know it's a stretch, but it's a big part of my job so It's what I know so bear with me.

AutoCAD has been around since 85ish. One of the very first programs available for DOS. AutoCAD was used widely in many engineering firms. People switched from a drafting board and pencils to this new fangled computer system.

It was a very nice system! It started out with a simple UI and keyboard commands (circle, line, hatch, etc). Then they added mouse support. And over the years it has evolved a LOT. They come out with a new version every year and each year it has some new features in it.

Engineers just coming out of college tend to make use of the new features which tend to be faster and very powerful.

But engineers that remember AutoCAD 1.0 and have been using it for more than 20 years tend to stick to keyboard commands. They tend to be much slower and much more resistant to change to the new features. Even if it would behoove them. Even when I show them how much faster it is, they are stuck in the 80s.

Evran, you are an old Engineer. You see how you did things in crappy games like WOW and Guild Wars and think that's the best it can get. There's no way you could be happier. I'm the new engineer. I came from Gemstone and have been turned off by all games because of the lack of roleplay.

I think I have big ideas for areas of social interaction, experience and skill gathering, changing the class system, and even role-playing in future MMOs. I think convincing people like yourself is the first step to changing the way people think about their MMO. Changing the way people play and experience it. Changing it for the better (who am I Obama with all these change change changes?) so people will get a more in-depth experience out of their games.

(This is where you come in and tell me that new, bratty engineers always think they know everything - and chase kids off your lawn)

 

[Performer]

The whole Point is that a "Group or Die" Type of Plan isn't going to help your Targetgroup.
Players who enjoy Grouping will likely flock to "your" Game, because of the somehow enhanced Groupgameplay - but Soloers aren't even going to give it a try, because all they'll hear will be "Soloing won't get you far in this Game". To get People to group, who'd normally not group, you first have to offer them their preferred type of Gameplay, else you won't even get a Chance to proselytise them. Then you can go ahead and ease them into the even more enjoyable Parts of the MMO-Experience.

 

[Valendros]

Exactly, Performer. You need a balance. You need to attract soloers while at the same time slowly converting them to a new way of thinking.

"How" is the question I'm asking.

How do you get soloers to play and show them the wonders of grouping without turning them off in the start?

 

[HJ-Navarre]

This thread has been getting a bit unruly. Please play nice or we will be forced to douse it with lighter fluid and burn it like a rat.

Thank you.

 

[Jaraeth]

Exactly, Performer. You need a balance. You need to attract soloers while at the same time slowly converting them to a new way of thinking.

"How" is the question I'm asking.

How do you get soloers to play and show them the wonders of grouping without turning them off in the start?

Let me rephrase this whole discussion as short and quick as I can, as it fits me personally, and thus, is a reflection of my opinion and not necessarily that of others:

As an Introvert, and solo player... I don't *want* to group. Nothing you do, as a game developer, will make me want to group, if I do not want to do so.

End of story.

 

[Silverblade]

Exactly, Performer. You need a balance. You need to attract soloers while at the same time slowly converting them to a new way of thinking.

"How" is the question I'm asking.

How do you get soloers to play and show them the wonders of grouping without turning them off in the start?

I think the problem isn't just about game mechanics. I think it has more to do with how much social interaction a player wants with strangers. I mean really, how often do we perform tasks with strangers and if we do, what are the chances that we will enjoy it?

There was one thing I dreaded more than anything else in college: group work. I hated it because inevitably there was one or more losers who would never carry their own weight and the remainder of the group had to pick up the slack. The point is, I don't know anyone who enjoyed group projects. It's because you have to rely on others for your grade but more importantly, we generally don't like working with people we don't know. The only time I enjoyed group work was when the group was composed of people I already knew and I knew what to expect.

I think this brings up a key point in MMOs. Designers expect players to randomly group with strangers and it's expected to be fun? Sure some PUGs are fun but there are an equal number that end up in disaster. Generally speaking, people just end up grouping with people they know (ie RL friends or guildmates).

I'm not sure if designers need to even make a change to encourage grouping more because the trend is changing naturally. As more people play MMOs, they naturally end up meeting new people. Guilds move from one game to the next therefore constructing a grouping mechanism immediately for those players.

I think I can safely say that most, if not all of us have at least a couple of online friends whom we group with now and then. As time goes on, this will be more common for everyone and as a result, grouping won't be so forced but people will just do it to hang out with people they know...you know, like in real life?

The main issue that makes grouping a problem is, designers are trying to encourage grouping among strangers. That's not something most people enjoy in real life and there's no reason it would seem enjoyable in a game. As the MMO genre matures, I really do think coming up ways to group won't be such a big deal because everyone will know someone and grouping will be natural.

 

[Silverblade]

I am not saying single player games are better than mmos. I do think that the social interaction is what makes mmos unique from them, though, and not just some flat game.

It is true MMOs are social games but does grouping constitute the only way to be social? Some people play MMOs as a glorified chatroom while they run quests...generally play the game. Aren't they being social as well?

Jack Emmert of Cryptic (City of Heroes designer and now Champions Online) understands this. Just because you are playing the game solo does not mean you are not interacting with the community. The person can be chatting it up with their guild. They can be on General chat. They are involved in some form of an Auction House. They craft. And so forth. And if the player chooses to group on occasion, the option is there unlike single player games.

And I'll also add that there is some comfort knowing that as you play the game, you know in the back of your mind, there are others doing the same thing as you. It's a sense of community even though you are not directly interacting with them.

 

[Valendros]

Designers expect players to randomly group with strangers and it's expected to be fun?

The only time I enjoyed group work was when the group was composed of people I already knew and I knew what to expect.

Ever thought you might find some people in your random groups that might become your friends so you would then know what to expect?

The main issue that makes grouping a problem is, designers are trying to encourage grouping among strangers.

I think you and I are on more similar wavelengths than you think we are.

The PROBLEM with many group oriented games is they force you to group with strangers because your friends all tend to have more or less free time than you do and thus forge ahead of you or constantly struggle to catch up.

If you take level out of the formula, then you can group with friends more often and end up having a more enjoyable time.

 

[Performer]

Re: Making People group without them realising it

How do you get soloers to play and show them the wonders of grouping without turning them off in the start?

I conjecture that one would have to step away from traitional Means of Grouping. Do away with Invitations, static Groups, a fixed Groupsize, ... - just keep the Experience of beeing alongside Others who have the same Goal. So, imagine a standard, solofriendly MMO, then...

...remove any XP- or Killstealing Mechanics. If your the First to strike an Opponent, you get full XP and Loot, no matter what else happens. You get Questcredit, even if you're nor the first to strike the Mob. Also, Quests won't ask you to kill ten Rats (to prevent People from having to compete over Mobs), but rather to keep Rats out of a certain Area for a certain Time (for Example).

Next I'd give you a "Helppoint" every Time you aid someone in any Way - buff or heal him while in Combat, hit or debuff an Opponent. I'd also keep Track of who you got those Helppoints from, and add a Bonus if you already have at least X Helppoints from someone. That Way, even a complete Soloer might say "Oh hey, that's this Frank-Guy again. If i help him a little, i can quickly earn some extra Helppoints." - and he'd do something akin to Grouping, without ever inviting anybody, or speaking a Word.

You'd naturally have to assign some - any - Form of Value to Helppoints, like Titles, Ranks, Abilityupgrades, an Option to barter them, or whatever. Better yet, allow Players to offer them for Services: Target a Boss, set a Bounty. You and the Boss get a Marker next to their Name (and their would be a zonewide Bountylist) - if the Boss falls, you struck it at least once, and you didn't die, whoever helped you gets the Bounty. Bosses might also give you a special Helppoint, that you can take to an NPC and barter for Stuff he drops, along with a Price of normal Helppoints (that Way it wouldn't matter much who is first to strike a Mob).

One might also make the Game sometimes spawn rampaging Groups of Mobs, when a Spot is camped by several players. If such Groups have special Drops, or other Rewards that are in some Way superior to normal Mobs, you'd not only incite Banding together to defeat them once they appear - Players would also congregate, so as to increase the Chance to spawn such special Mobs in the first Place.

Or you might give Characters a Bonus for the Time since last another Character died in their Proximity. Thus giving an Incentive to keeping an Eye on your Fellows.

Now, some or all of what i suggested may either be wildly exploitable, highly averse of traditional grouping, or both. It's just ideas i quickly made up, without too much Tought about how the Rest of such an MMO would have to look like.
...the short Version is: Remove Barriers to Cooperation, and give Incentives to help each other.

 

[HJ-Diviana]

The PROBLEM with many group oriented games is they force you to group with strangers because your friends all tend to have more or less free time than you do and thus forge ahead of you or constantly struggle to catch up.

If you take level out of the formula, then you can group with friends more often and end up having a more enjoyable time.

Out of my few friends, only one has a computer, and it can't even run the first Sims game. We DO play DR together, but we don't PLAY together. If we run into each other IG, we will talk for a few and then run off to do our individual tasks. She is my best friend, she lived across the street from me when we were 13/14, I've known her for over ten years. But we don't play games together.

I don't have friends to group with. I don't want to meet random strangers because I have to group to do something. I wouldn't mind meeting someone in the game who happened to be doing the same thing I was, but that's by chance and not me being forced into it. I might even talk to them again afterwards, but that's really not likely.

I just don't enjoy being in a group. That's all there is to it. Regardless of whether they are pumped up to my level, or we get some bonuses, I don't care. I just like playing alone, but in a world that is colored by other personalities. And I don't have to interact with them if I don't want to.