The Voyager twins...

sci-fi-dude

1963, 1899 called they want every thing back....
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Ok in plain English, what will happen to those 2 craft now since they left our galaxy? Do you think they will bump into any thing out there? If so I hope they can fashion an image or 2 for us to see. Tom its up to you on this one...
It was cool having the voyager craft check out our solar system, but, I think it would be even more interesting if they bumped into anything, just anything unusual.....
 

Tom

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now since they left our galaxy?
LOL, galaxy? Really?
They are still very much within the solar system.
They are at the Termination Shock as your image indicates.
The heliopause is still a looong ways off and Then there is a longer distance to the shock boundary at the edge of the Bow Shock.
If the craft can penetrate the Bow Shock boundary it will have made it into outer space as in outside the influence of the Sun.
Since we have never had instruments in outer space in that sense, I have no idea what the conditions will be.
I suspect a void between the effects of our star and the next nearest star.
While they may be able to penetrate the bow shock boundary from the inside if they encounter another star's bow shock boundary they may meet a resistance. If that is what happens the craft could spend eternity bouncing around in outer space never being able to penetrate any star's bow shock boundaries and never being able to re-penetrate even the Sun's boundary.
Think a BB bouncing around in a void of balloons.

However, since the Sun is pushing outward on the bow shock the crafts could be propelled at such a velocity that they do penetrate a nearby star's bow shock. At that time the outward push of that star will slow the craft and it may not have the velocity to enter that star's heliopause. Thus it would bounce around and re-exit that bow shock at a different point relative to the angle at which it hits that specific heliosphere.

If it did penetrate that star's heliosphere and manage to get past the termination shock of that star it would be captured by that stars gravity and eventually fall onto that star.
All this will happen within 4-8 light years distance given the star density in our area of the Orion's Arm of the Milky Way.

You must also take into consideration that the entire Sun system spirals in the Orion Arm while also spiraling towards Sagittarius A Black Hole at the center of the Milky Way galaxy.

Within 12.5 Light Years
The Nearest Stars


Number of stars within 12.5 light years = 33

The Spiral motion of the Sun in the Orion Arm

upload_2017-9-22_2-13-37.jpeg
It also includes a graphic of nearby stars

The Milky Way Galaxy

The White blob in the center is Sagittarius A, a massive black hole

In our region of the Universe, there are some 100 billion supermassive black holes. The nearest one (Sagittarius A) resides in the center of our Milky Way galaxy, 28 thousand lightyears away.
 

Tom

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Ya know, without the effects of the Sun's influence on detection, there may be signals bouncing around out there that can't penetrate the bow shock. Signals meant only to be detected by ships navigating the space between the stars.
Also, any telescopic or wave readings will be more precise without the Sun's influence. We may find that the Universe is much older than we can detect here. We will be able to "See" cosmological structures clearer than ever before.

You know how in Star Trek we were never considered until the Vulcans detected a warp signature?
What if the consideration for alien contact is penetrating the civilization's star shock boundary and transmitting from the void between stars? One of the Voyagers may send the first significant signal of a rising civilization. The aliens sat around a conference table and decided that no civilization can be contacted until it has technology outside the influence of their parent star.

Voyager's signature is detected and they dispatch a ship to investigate its source. They use their technology to decipher the map home and decide to come see who this new civilization is and if they pose a threat.

Its like "Hey, you guys did it finally. I'm Gorblemosure and I bring gifts and technology. Welcome to the Orion's Arm" Or it might be "This civilization is hostile and we should destroy it before it becomes advanced enough to destroy us. If the latter is the case, they may destroy us without ever entering our solar system.

The Voyager crafts themselves is a huge and significant achievement for human beings. It holds many promises of which some are not favorable. Without a doubt, it will be significant when it does exist the Sun's influence. Just the fact that we have our technology outside our star system is significant, even if it "bumps" into nothing.
 

Tom

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The solar system is spinning. The Sun is spinning as well as the planets, moons and everything else within its influence.
In addition to the spinning it is spiraling within the Orion Arm (up and down spiral).
It is also moving with the Orion Arm in a larger spiral that will eventually fall onto Sagittarius A Black Hole at the center (spiraling around).
The Black hole is also pulling lateral to the spiral and indicated by the Bar structure near the center.

The density of stars near the black hole increase the gravitational pull so the Orion Arm is moving from the Perseus Arm towards the Sagittarius Arm as a whole(falling toward).

It is possible that the voyager craft may be captured by the galactic center's gravity and move lateral towards the center of the galaxy, well, at least until it impacts or is captured by something.

In any case, the solar system will move away from Voyagers as well as the Voyagers moving away from the solar system. I write all this so you can fathom that it will not be a straight line. As the voyagers continue their path, it is possible they may run into the solar system again because the system is moving spirally and laterally.

That spiral and lateral movemet will affect their trajectories, spirally and laterally.
 

sci-fi-dude

1963, 1899 called they want every thing back....
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Excellent write up! I had a little brain fart when I wrote this, I just wanted bare bones, so you reckon those 2 ships don't have the juice to pop the bubble to head off into the dark abyss?
 
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sci-fi-dude

1963, 1899 called they want every thing back....
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So those 2 will probably never get out of our spiral galaxy? Kind of like a small paper boat in a draining drain, never ending. We would truly need a enterprise craft with warp just to get into the abyss. Oh well, back to sci-fi dreamin':D:cool:
I doubt I will see Star Trek style ships in my time....
 

Tom

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don't have the juice to pop the bubble
I don't know.
Depends on a lot of different factors.
Factors that nobody can know because they are further away than anything ever made and tracked.

Is there a turbulence where the Sun's bow shock meets outer space?
You can't 'see' wind with a telescope, you can only see the affect of the wind upon things.

The craft are moving in a directional line at great speed (compared to us) but who knows if there is turbulence out there that will affect the crafts speed or direction?
It may not even be wind. It might be a gravitational eddy.
The heliosheath might have wind too. The heliopause may be a boundary that makes the craft bounce back.
Nobody knows. The craft could reach the heliopause and disintegrate or crash up against it.

The heliosheath is oblong. It is smaller at the leading edge than the trailing edge. This indicates a force causing the distortion.
The solar system is plowing thru outer space.
If there were no force against the heliopause it would be round.
Just like the Earth's magnetosphere is bent back from the solar wind.

upload_2017-9-22_13-27-1.jpeg

However, even in Earth's close proximity to the Sun, our space craft can penetrate the Earth's bow shock so anything is possible.

What is truly awesome is that atoms have a similar barrier. The Coulomb barrier



There are four atomic forces (Electromagnetic, Strong, Weak, and Gravity)

The Universe is chaotic but it has uniformity in its chaotic systems.
Uniformity that transfers with relativity.

Our civilized science uses chaos to describe the forces we do not understand. Its possible that the Universe is only chaotic when pondered in ignorance of the big picture which we cannot see.

If that uniformity transfers from atomic to cosmic relativity, there is a possibility that what we see as megastructures could be microscopic structures of a larger, non-focused, non-relative structure (We call the Universe).
Dr. Suess' Horton Hears A Who explored this concept.

There is evidence to the contrary because we witness the result of collisions in deep space views.
The problem with making a conclusion from the collisions we witness is that we have no idea of the distances the colliding structures traveled or the influence range of them. They could be within the same force bubble.
It is possible that normal (to us) masses cannot penetrate the more massive structure's forces.

Our best observational data has only been tracking movement for less than 1,000 years.
The movement we have been tracking that shows collisions is tracking huge objects with massive signatures.
We can extrapolate direction and rates of movement only from the 1st observation to the most recent observation.
Any remaining calculation outside the observational period is speculation.
Nothing we have tracked in the solar system, in real time so far can be proven to have originated outside the influence of our Sun, nothing.

Which means star travel to another planet will be impossible unless we develop a means of travel that is more massive than the star system or find a different way around the structure's barrier forces.
Pretty grim for colonizing other star systems.
You send your colony ship to the nearest star and it bounces of that star's bow shock.
Then you try to return home and it bounces of the Sun's bow shock.
It gets stuck in the void between stars, forever.


There is also a possibility that a small low-mass object at a certain velocity and angle could penetrate a star's force boundaries but high mass objects cannot.
If that is the case, star travel may not be a problem.
Sorta like piercing the membrane of a cell with a needle.

upload_2017-9-22_14-30-37.jpeg

If you look at the rendering video of the future collision between the Milky Way and Andromeda galaxies all the computer models show individual stars missing one another.
The collision graphics depict a fluid movement and only an impact of the super-massive black holes at their centers.



If there are separating forces at the edges of star boundaries, the Voyagers may not be massive enough to overcome those forces. Since we have never been there we can't know for sure.
 

Tom

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All is not lost.

Light is both a particle and a waveform.
The idea is called wave-particle duality.

Quantum mechanics hold promise for discovering the secrets of wave-particle duality.
If we can command wave-particle duality at will on any mass, we could unlock light speed travel.

Since light can penetrate the boundaries, essentially it would make it possible for a duality wave-mass to do so. Thus a ship that uses duality would be able to visit other star systems.

But...Light, whether in mass or waveform cannot penetrate objects.
We would either need to deflect and steer around masses on the journey (including small masses)
or find a way to phase thru those masses.
Even a fist sized chunk of rock, or smaller can destroy a ship moving at the speed of light.
It would be unlikely that all potential collisions could be accounted for, then steered around moving at those velocities. Even shields would be penetrated like a needle and a cell membrane.

To phase thru matter we would need to develop a way to make the mass of the ship act like a neutrino.
Neutrinos pass thru us every second of every day. Thru us, the Earth and those pesky asteroids.

So, we have a photon based ship using a neutrino based force. Now we can safely move about the galaxy.
Problem now is the vast distances between significant destinations.
Even at the speed of light it would take about 4 years to get to the nearest star.
That is 4 years of episodes on the ship in space without even encountering a different planet.
If its a 5 year mission, you will only get to explore 1 planet and couldn't even get back home before your series is cancelled.

So, there needs to be a way to stop relative time.
Cryo-sleep will not change the duration time of travel, merely the effects of time upon the body.
Time will still pass as the ship speeds to its destination.

Time is based in relativity. To create a way to travel great distances in space there will be a need to change the ships relativity to time.
One way is to change the scale.
To change the scale of something you could introduce a force between the atomic forces that separates them to a larger distance, that would cause the object to explode and lose integrity.
If you could do it while remaining intact and perceptive you could expand to a scale of the galaxy and merely move sideways a fraction then scale back down.
I have no idea how that could be done but the possibility of it validates the idea.
A concept used in the films Fantastic Voyage and Inner Space.

So now we have a photon ship using a neutrino force that varies in scale while moving at the speed of light.
 

sci-fi-dude

1963, 1899 called they want every thing back....
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Excellent write up! Ill stay tuned to the NASA channel for the updates. Never can tell....
 

sci-fi-dude

1963, 1899 called they want every thing back....
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It may sound silly Tom, but what if the creator only made our galaxy in a rubber pill form, and the stars are jus t reflections of close stars near us. The form is repeated as you stated, small and large, and like the skin on water its hard to penetrate, perhaps outside of galaxy there is nothing, but eternity, all white at the beginning, then the longer one stays it comes into focus? One never knows eh?
 

ByGoneYrs

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Honestly those two probes will eventually be lost in space and they will power down. We will forget them and by the time they ever reach another star if they ever do, they may just end up floating in some solar system as debris or crash on some moon or asteroid. The chance that any other race will ever find either of them is so limited it is not even worth to consider. Plus the time frame, that they are discovered might be so long that mankind might have passed away by the time someone finds one of them and comes looking. They might arrive in our solar system to find a old star that has expanded and consumed the first two planets and burned Earth biosphere away and our moon gone and so on. It is a nice thought that one day either of them will be found, but realistically they will be lost in space and forgotten.
 

sci-fi-dude

1963, 1899 called they want every thing back....
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Honestly those two probes will eventually be lost in space and they will power down. We will forget them and by the time they ever reach another star if they ever do, they may just end up floating in some solar system as debris or crash on some moon or asteroid. The chance that any other race will ever find either of them is so limited it is not even worth to consider. Plus the time frame, that they are discovered might be so long that mankind might have passed away by the time someone finds one of them and comes looking. They might arrive in our solar system to find a old star that has expanded and consumed the first two planets and burned Earth biosphere away and our moon gone and so on. It is a nice thought that one day either of them will be found, but realistically they will be lost in space and forgotten.
I dig the lost in space reference! Yeup by gone, one can only hope a space critter finds one and traces it back to tera firma, Just as long as the critter isn't a turkey.:D
<<<<Space critters...
 
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