Season 4 Vaughn's proposal speech

[Jamison]

there is a difference in dating and being friends. they had only been on 2 dates since they started being a couple. whatever was going on before was him cheating on Alice. But I wouldn't go and call it as if Syd and Vaughn were together then. Syd slept with Noah in that time perid so would she be cheating on Vaughn then? no because they were just friends. Vaughn flirting and stuff with Syd would classify as cheating on Alice. you don't call a funeral a date, the dinner at the restaurant was a date, although he was hceasting on Alice then. Further there was the ice cream thing. but a homecooked dinner they never got to might I say isn't a real date. a date is when you go out with someone.

whatever the case, even if you did count those events as dates it would still be too soon for an engagement, they didn't know each others personal lives. Syd never went to his place or met his dog.

[post="1199089"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]​

Look, I personally think this whole thing is getting a little out of hand...WHO CARES?!

Honestly, does it really matter if they had only been on '2 actual dates'...and as far as the date thing goes, most people don't go on actual dates anymore...they'd much rather stay at home and cook a nice dinner

And the fact about Vaughn and Syd cheating on each other...they weren't really dating, so they couldn't have cheated. The point there was that if they could've been dating then they would've been. But it was against the rules. The attraction was obviously there though, and they played important roles in each other's lives.

I think this has been WAY overanalyzed. It was intended to be a sweet moment to show how much Vaughn cared (and still cares) for Sydney, and to help progress their relationship.

I know not everyone is a SV shipper...but try to look at it through a none objective point of view. I have a friend who watched that episode with me and had never really seen an episode and even she could sense the sweetness of it all.

So let's just view it as what it is, a very sweet gesture that shows the love that two people share.

 

[spydancer]

In real life and in fiction, relationships vary a great deal, from the rare "thunderbolt" of "love at first sight"--apparently an actual phenomenon that occurs in an instant and lasts a lifetime--to a very slow-growing, yet enduring bond (and of course, there are the bloom and bust variety). I would be hard-pressed indeed, to pretend that Sydney and Vaughn did not share a strong bond at the conclusion of season one, well before "Santa Barbara"--she certainly was in agony over what happened to him, no? By the time that this event rolled around, Sydney had, for all intents and purposes, assassinated a man in exchange for Vaughn's life.

Sydney's track record has been one of showing a strong willingness to share her troubles with Vaughn, and although she might have a tendency to try to hold back a little after last year, that problem didn't exist back then. I mention this because it demonstrates a high level of trust.

My point is that I find it difficult to argue that at the "Santa Barbara" juncture, Sydney and Vaughn didn't constitute a "couple in love." I'm not saying that Vaughn was planning to propose, but it's certainly a great romantic story and if it had happened, it wouldn't have been out of character for Sydney to have said "yes." And with earful of tell-don't-show* "soul mate" stuff we got last year, could I honestly claim she'd say no?  :lol:

But, please, let's remember that we're talking about a hypothetical situation. None of this happened. We don't know what Vaughn's plans were. 

* I really would have preferred to see it dramatized instead of being lectured repeatedly  . . .

[post="1200032"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]​

*sigh* Thank you Verdantheart! Anyway, it is useless to argue about whether or not he would have proposed at the Santa Barbara juncture at the end of season 2 because Syd and Vaughn never made it there. Also whether or not they were ready - is a matter of opinion and perspective. A couple in love they definitely were at that point and for the sake of our romantic "what might have been" story there's really not much left to debate.

 

[SydBristow13]

Again that is not always true. There a many posts at SD1 Of people who married after being proposed to on the 2nd date. And personally I have a couple of friends who married or moved in together after 2 months of dating.
So it does happen in real life.

[post="1199800"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]​

Well that may be so but they probably have been to each others places and met their families maybe even pets if they had them.
As far as we know Syd never met his dog, his mother or went to his place.

Anyways I agree with V, but I claim to that they didn't really know each other well enough to get married. Enough analizing of that. moving on now here.

 

[spydancer]

there is a difference in dating and being friends. they had only been on 2 dates since they started being a couple. whatever was going on before was him cheating on Alice. But I wouldn't go and call it as if Syd and Vaughn were together then. Syd slept with Noah in that time perid so would she be cheating on Vaughn then? no because they were just friends. Vaughn flirting and stuff with Syd would classify as cheating on Alice. you don't call a funeral a date, the dinner at the restaurant was a date, although he was hceasting on Alice then. Further there was the ice cream thing. but a homecooked dinner they never got to might I say isn't a real date. a date is when you go out with someone.

whatever the case, even if you did count those events as dates it would still be too soon for an engagement, they didn't know each others personal lives. Syd never went to his place or met his dog.

[post="1199089"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]​

Obviously there is a difference between having a "friendship" and being in an intimate relationship. My point was only to say as Verdantheart did that Syd trusted and confided in Vaughn. There was a tremendous shared history there even before they actually stared to "date." When Vaughn took Sydney out to dinner that one time before the take down of SD-6 nothing actually happened so how could he have been "cheating" on Alice? My point was only that at the end of season two when the SB thing would have hypothetically occured, Syd and Vaughn were far beyond the rudimentary niceties of the first dates. :throb: One does not even take someone that they have just began dating to a funeral, for example. Clearly you and I have differing viewpoints on what does and does not consitute a "date," so there's not much more to say on the topic of how many dates they had been on.

None of that was really the point anyway, and in the end, they never made it to SB- whether he would have proposed or not, is not even the point, and we are not even supposed to know the answer to that. Most of us do believe they were in love at the time when he intended to take her to SB, and so his mention of it three years later is just an enchanting and romantic reminder of an earlier time in their relationship. :2love:
laymusic:
:smooch:

 

[superintelligentone]

Good points by both verdantheart and SydBristow13!

I did some checking about what stage that Syd and Vaughn were at after the end of SD-6. In episode 2-14 "Double Agent", Vaughn announced that he had broken up with Alice.

In episode 2-19 "Endgame", Sydney gave Vaughn the middle drawer to keep his clothes in. She made it a point to say "It's just a drawer." She was making certain that he wouldn't think that they were at major step in their relationship. Vaughn said he simply thought that it was convenient. She wasn't asking him to move in.

Episodes 2-21 & 2-22 were supposed to be within the same time period where Will got framed and then cleared. The scene where Vaughn talked about Santa Barbara was about going on vacation together for some quality time that they were not getting.

So if they weren't getting enough quality time together, that seems to show that Vaughn couldn't have planned a proposal for Santa Barbara. He was telling that Liberty Village salesman either: a story OR about how he wished that he could have done things in retrospect.

JJ purposely leaves his scenes ambiguous to encourage these kinds of discussions. He could have had Vaughn say straight forward "Yes, I would have proposed" or "No, but I wish I could have" or "No, it was all a made up story".

To not wonder if JJ isn't pulling a twist is selling him short. I'm always expecting a twist because Alias isn't a simple show.

 

[SydBristow13]

When Vaughn took Sydney out to dinner that one time before the take down of SD-6 nothing actually happened so how could he have been "cheating" on Alice?

[post="1200398"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]​

You don't recall the roomkey that was given to them.I do. plus he asked her out. asking out someone else while dating someone would classify as cheating.

 

[Vartanbabe]

In episode 2-19 "Endgame", Sydney gave Vaughn the middle drawer to keep his clothes in. She made it a point to say "It's just a drawer." She was making certain that he wouldn't think that they were at major step in their relationship. Vaughn said he simply thought that it was convenient. She wasn't asking him to move in.

[post="1202978"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]​

No she was tring to act like it wasn't a big deal when it. then the minute Vaughn said you sure? her face lit up and yeah then she watches him put his stuff in his drawer smiling the whole time. So it was a major step in their relationship. we knoe she wasn't asking him to move in but it was a step towards that. and When Vaughn was talking to weiss about the drawer he was only acting that like it was convient so Weiss would stop bugging him about it.

 

[hotpot]

we knoe she wasn't asking him to move in but it was a step towards that. and When Vaughn was talking to weiss about the drawer he was only acting that like it was convient so Weiss would stop bugging him about it.

[post="1210181"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]​

When I let my boyfriend (now husband) keep a few things in a drawer at my apartment, it didn't have anything to do with him moving in. It meant he'd obviously be coming back to stay, so why not just leave some stuff there to be more convienant ...

 

[ms.katejones]

You don't recall the roomkey that was given to them.I do. plus he asked her out. asking out someone else while dating someone would classify as cheating.

[post="1209144"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]​

We don't know that he and Alice were dating exclusively. They broke up and he only started seeing her again because her dad died. He was being a nice guy. Syd knew he was dating Alice and she didn't have a problem kising him, so maybe Alice and Vaughn weren't in a monogomous relationship.

 

[SydBristow13]

We don't know that he and Alice were dating exclusively. They broke up and he only started seeing her again because her dad died. He was being a nice guy. Syd knew he was dating Alice and she didn't have a problem kising him, so maybe Alice and Vaughn weren't in a monogomous relationship.

[post="1210930"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]​

THe fact is they were still together. and Syd was cheating with him.

It's like in Gilmore Girls, Rory slept with Dean while he is married to Lindsy.
her mother finds out and tell her it was wrong of her to sleep with him because he is married. Now I know Vaughn and Alice weren't married but they were dating, and even if he was just taking pity on her he still was cheating on her. Like Lorelai said you can't be one of those girls who justifies cheating with someone elses husband by blaming the wife, in this case Alice that they aren't working out or happy or whatever the reason. facts remain he was cheating on her with Syd. And Syd was cheating with him. She should have told him "no, not as long as you're with Alice. I can't be anything more for you then a friend as long as you are with her." Because like it or not Syd was the other woman there. she was dating some one elses boyfriend. although their relationsship may not be working out until they are officially broken up if one of them is goingo ut with another with intentions of being more then just friends it is cheating.

 

[LisE]

THe fact is they were still together. and Syd was cheating with him.

It's like in Gilmore Girls, Rory slept with Dean while he is married to Lindsy.
her mother finds out and tell her it was wrong of her to sleep with him because he is married. Now I know Vaughn and Alice weren't married but they were dating, and even if he was just taking pity on her he still was cheating on her. Like Lorelai said you can't be one of those girls who justifies cheating with someone elses husband by blaming the wife, in this case Alice that they aren't working out or happy or whatever the reason. facts remain he was cheating on her with Syd. And Syd was cheating with him. She should have told him "no, not as long as you're with Alice. I can't be anything more for you then a friend as long as you are with her." Because like it or not Syd was the other woman there. she was dating some one elses boyfriend. although their relationsship may not be working out until they are officially broken up if one of them is goingo ut with another with intentions of being more then just friends it is cheating.

[post="1211533"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]​

How is this situation anything like Gilmore Girls? Do they have any secret CIA agents on the show who can't date because they will killed if they are seen together?

Perspecitive and cirumstance are pretty important when it comes to individual situations. And what does a light, romantic moment in S4 have anything to do with what happened way back in S1? Just because we were only shown two dates that SV on the actual show does not lead to the assumption that they ever only went on two dates! The show does not progress in "real" time--many things happen off-screen because of the obvious limitations of telling a story in 43 minute chunks of time every week. That is a faulty assumption to make about SV's dating relationship.

 

[ms.katejones]

THe fact is they were still together. and Syd was cheating with him.

It's like in Gilmore Girls, Rory slept with Dean while he is married to Lindsy.
her mother finds out and tell her it was wrong of her to sleep with him because he is married. Now I know Vaughn and Alice weren't married but they were dating, and even if he was just taking pity on her he still was cheating on her. Like Lorelai said you can't be one of those girls who justifies cheating with someone elses husband by blaming the wife, in this case Alice that they aren't working out or happy or whatever the reason. facts remain he was cheating on her with Syd. And Syd was cheating with him. She should have told him "no, not as long as you're with Alice. I can't be anything more for you then a friend as long as you are with her." Because like it or not Syd was the other woman there. she was dating some one elses boyfriend. although their relationsship may not be working out until they are officially broken up if one of them is goingo ut with another with intentions of being more then just friends it is cheating.

[post="1211533"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]​

See, Syd doesn't strike me as the type who would make out with a guy in serious relationship. She saw how the whole cheating thing played out with Francie and Charlie, which is why I don't think Vaughn and Alice were seeing each other exclusively. They could have been dating, but still allowed to see other people.

 

[G$f3arl3ssG$]

Whew...where is this all going again?

 

[superintelligentone]

Whew...where is this all going again?

[post="1213974"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]​

It's the theory that Vaughn can do no wrong in the eyes of his fans. That something unseen justifies those wrongs. Like Alice must have told him go ahead and cheat.

SydBristow13 is winning the debate. Go Sabs!

 

[kellslawells]

I think this has been WAY overanalyzed. It was intended to be a sweet moment to show how much Vaughn cared (and still cares) for Sydney, and to help progress their relationship.

Oh God, THANKYOU!!!

Seriously? I love Syd and Vaughn and i will never love anything else EVER, but this has just gone into a whole other REALM of discussion.

 

[spydancer]

How is this situation anything like Gilmore Girls?  Do they have any secret CIA agents on the show who can't date because they will killed if they are seen together? 

Perspecitive and cirumstance are pretty important when it comes to individual situations.  And what does a light, romantic moment in S4 have anything to do with what happened way back in S1?  Just because we were only shown two dates that SV on the actual show does not lead to the assumption that they ever only went on two dates!  The show does not progress in "real" time--many things happen off-screen because of the obvious limitations of telling a story in 43 minute chunks of time every week.  That is a faulty assumption to make about SV's dating relationship.

[post="1211607"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]​

Ugh!!! Thank You. I can't believe we are even talking about Gilmore Girls here. Anyway, this is my thread that I started, and I found the moment in WTLV extremely romantic and enchanting. And I am really really sorry that I argued with anyone about how many dates Syd & Vaughn might have been on because I think this is how my topic got so convoluted. :argue: I agree, however, that some are making faulty assumptions about the S/V relationship.

In truth, Syd and Vaughn found each other amid the considerable chaos of their lives. And there within that darkness and light they cling to each other. Sometimes one has to look under the surface for what is real. These are two people that need to love each other. The story about Santa Barbara and the proposal... it doesn't matter whether he would have proposed or not, if they were ready, if she would have said yes... what matters? If we are arguing about that, we are missing the real point. Standing there on that rotating platform Vaughn delivered a "what might have been" message to Sydney. We are all swooning about how he said it, but the reality of it is that Vaughn's speech is really more of a metaphor for the way that life does not always turn out the way we plan. In a way, the whole thing is incredibly sad, but at the same time, the message is clear. We are still here, standing right in front of each other And for the time being, the whole world seemed to fall away, and it was just the two of them finding their way back to one another.

 

[Alias_Gay]

^^ :kicking: :kicking: :kicking:

Well said girl

 

[SydBristow13]

How is this situation anything like Gilmore Girls?  Do they have any secret CIA agents on the show who can't date because they will killed if they are seen together? 

Perspecitive and cirumstance are pretty important when it comes to individual situations.  And what does a light, romantic moment in S4 have anything to do with what happened way back in S1?  Just because we were only shown two dates that SV on the actual show does not lead to the assumption that they ever only went on two dates!  The show does not progress in "real" time--many things happen off-screen because of the obvious limitations of telling a story in 43 minute chunks of time every week.  That is a faulty assumption to make about SV's dating relationship.

[post="1211607"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]​

It is like GG because Vaughn is like Dean. He may not have been married to Alice or serious with her but he was with her. going out with Syd and kissing her was cheating on Alice. He and Alice may not have been working out like Dean and Lindsey weren't working out but he should have broken up before going after Syd, not cheat over and over again until eventually break up when he knows he can get someone better. It is not fair to Alice, just like it isn't fair what dean did to Lindsey. Like Lorelai sai to Rory you can't justify cheating by blaming the wife, or in this case girlfriend. Vaughn and Alice may not have been working out but again I say he had no right to cheat on her. I'm sure that their relationship didn't unclude with Alice saying "Oh and Vaughn while we are together you can see anyone else you want. Kiss anyone else you want."

It's the theory that Vaughn can do no wrong in the eyes of his fans. That something unseen justifies those wrongs. Like Alice must have told him go ahead and cheat. 

SydBristow13 is winning the debate. Go Sabs!

Thanks SIO. I'm winnign cos I'm right, and weather they want to admit it or not they know deep down I am right.

 

[spydancer]

^^ :kicking:  :kicking:  :kicking:

Well said girl

[post="1219970"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]​

Thank you! I was just trying to bring this topic back to its original point which, I thought, had something to do with a truly beautiful and enchanting moment in Alias history.

:sigh:

 

[ams4alias]

Vaughn and JJ have recieved F L status (fu**ing Ledgend)

It was so sweet I am speechless it was just so romantic and awwwwww
I loved it best S/V scene ever!

P.S. There is no way that this relates to GG!