What do you think of support classes?

[hj-Goat]

So I posted this at mmorpg.com when the healer/cleric/bard article came out, I'd like to hear what hero's hall has to say about the matter as well:

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In light of the newly released info on clerics, bards, and healers, I'd like to hear what you think about the idea of support classes as a whole, in any multiplayer game.

In gemstone it used to be understood that empaths healed and did very little else. It generally wasn't practical to solo with them beyond early levels, and group hunting was not all that common. Things have changed somewhat now and empaths have a fair number of offensive-minded spells of their own. (I honestly don't know how effectively they solo like-level creatures). Some think that was a great idea, others thought empaths were getting spells that their profession should have instead.

I will hopefully be too entangled in code to actually play HJ a whole bunch once its released, but I'm sure I'll have a character, and I think I may try pure support just to see what it's like. I like combat to be as strategic as possible, and adding a layer of support to the battle dynamics takes it one step further away from hack-slash-hack-slash.

Do you enjoy playing classes that don't directly harm the enemy as efficiently as others but instead help group members do their thing? Do you think you'll play a character with support aspects? Would you consider a character with two support classes? What design decisions make support classes thrive or fail?

Goat

 

[HJ-Diviana]

(I'm just throwing this in there)

In DR, Empaths can not fight at all. They can go into combat to heal others, but that is it.

They go into empathic shock and can't heal anyone if they try to fight.

 

[Azdel]

Personally, I've always disliked the idea of support classes. It seems kind of pointless to exist for the sole purpose of supplementing others. I mean sure, one could argue that you could debuff your enemies and fight them in their weakened state, but it seems to me that having to do prep work at the beginning of every fight just to match up to your foes would get tedious real fast. But this all works to HJ's advantage because as I recall, the only two classes that are pure support are Healer and Bard, and with the heavy emphasis on roleplaying, even I might enjoy playing a Bard. Then take multi-classing into account and you can play a half-Healer who has good offensive/defensive capabilities, yet doesn't have to rely on items or other players to keep himself alive. Hero's Journey has a huge edge over the competition in this respect.

I also have to admit that I REALLY love the idea of a Cleric who can fight. I got into RPGs in the first place because of a pair of games called Lunar, and so I tend to hold other games in the genre to certain standards that they set, though I have yet to find another game that meets all of them. One of the major things that I felt Lunar did right was giving the Cleric in each game the ability to hold their own in battle. Granted, one of them didn't learn any decent assault spells on his own, and the other didn't get assault spells of ANY kind, but they each compensated by having uber-high Attack stats, and one of them was even the fastest character in the game. I guess Lunar probably just spoiled me, but it still seems like more games should focus on that kind of character balance, so I'm really glad to see one that takes the issue into account.

Anyway, I'm sorry for the rant, but I just can't help myself sometimes.

 

[z80]

In general games that emphasize combat will cap the advancement of everything else. Being a pure support class in a game like that sucks. What I mean by that is your combat level puts a hard cap on your crafting and other such non damage dealing activities and you cannot at all ever advance those past a certain fixed point without leveling up your combat. In those situations support classes must be sufficiently dps capable. In HJ it's kind of moot since pure support is only offered by the healer and you must multiclass with one of the other classes and all of the other classes are damage dealers. I don't think I could get into playing a character that is not a damage dealer or tank or some mixture of both unless it was in a game that didn't use combat lvl to cap all of my other attributes and even than I'd have a dps/tank alt.

 

[Silver001]

Goat,

I think this question is only answerable by those who are planning this game, and not us as potential subscribers. Let me explain.

If the 'powers that be' are making a game that is basically Gemstone III with graphics, then dedicated support heroes are more than applicable. Only people who have played GSIII know what I am talking about. There, an empath could sit in town waiting to heal/buff those who were in need as they died and were fogged in by clerics or ran in bleeding. Clerics couldn't really ressurect the dead player until the empath transferred all major wounds. They spent their time regenerating themselves, socializing, and bartering on the 'amu-net'. This system actually led to a satisfying experience for those dedicated support players as they got coins and recognition for their efforts. Many of the most famous, richest players in GSIII were pure healing empaths.

On the other hand, if this game is anything like WoW, dedicated support heroes will be shadowed by the other classes. Sure, a support player helps during dungeon raids, but in player-vs-player they do not hold their own and unless there is a raid going on, it becomes very hard to quest. So in WoW, I feel priests are a failure.

Therefore, it is totally up to the coders to decide if pure support is applicable depending on how they are shaping the classes to interact with critters, other players, and most importantly, the death system.

 

[HJ-Diviana]

I certainly hope they're more healy type, the kind you want to tip.

I love the whole tipping thing. They're providing a service you need, sometimes for free, but tips are most definitely always appreciated.

 

[Xhar]

Ok, as the guy who allways plays the Nuke or Tank, I never had the patience for either healing or crafting (BOTH can be considered "support"). But, as my fiancee has been playing OLRPGs with me for a long time and loves playing healers, I have a good understanding of why she does so:

According to her, she loves the reliance a group has on their healer. It enables groups to go where they normally couldnt go, to hunt longer than they normally could, and achieve victory, or recover from defeat, in situations that would be disasterous without them. Sure, you cant solo, but it takes all kinds of people interacting to make for a truly immersive and diversive roleplaying environment. "Support" roles are necisary, for it gives people who dont care for the "Im the man! I can kill anything in this game!" mentality of the game a venue to play AND have a usefull part with witch to interact, not just a wallpaper character.

But hey, I could be wrong, who knows whats going through a chicks so-called brain, lol (Ducks as the rolling pin comes flying)!

Xhar

 

[Arremus]

I'll copy my post from the mmorpg.com thread of the same topic, to contribute to the debate here.
I will re-read and probably edit it some later when I get some time.

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I'm a support class player, primarily healer.
When I play as a healer, I log in knowing that my primary role is to heal and assist. I don't expect to be able to DPS just under a Mage or anything silly.
But therein lays the beauty of a dual class system. In a game like HJ, one could chose Healer/Bard and be pure support, or Healer/Wizard if you want to deal it in both areas.

I personally would much rather see Healer as a class purely that. A very strong concentration on unique ways to heal and assist, to mend and repair. Maybe even ways to imbue weapons semi/permanently with healing assists with rare reagants or something. Healer to me should be completely and utterly a healer. Hell, I'd love to see the option of dualing the same class - aka Healer/Healer, with added depth in that primary role.
If you *then* want the ability to solo a lot, take Ranger as the primary or secondary. If you want to be a psuedo-Paladin, take Warrior+Healer or such.

I really want to see Healer as being just a pure, solid, giver of life.
BUT, it also needs a lot of versatility to make it interesting. Ala what big Al posted above me. There is nothing worse than being a buff bot as a class. And even worse when you get one or two big heals and a bunch of little heals and you just stand there spamming them.
For example, I just finished up a long Giants group with my Warden in EQ2. Paly pulls, I cast Regrowth heal over time... I watch the timer.. recast. These were orange and red mobs to me btw. That's all I did pretty much the whole session. I made a crapload of xp, but it was boring as batsh*t.

The problem is giving one enough healing ability that trying to heal against an orange con is not impossible, but making it difficult enough that I was able to keep the 28 Paly up against 2 x 29^^^ for the duration of the hunt. I'm a 22 Warden.

I dunno.. I love being a healer and is what I'll always do. But please make it a class of interest.
It's pretty good fun healing in WoW, but again is rather a case of spam, spam, spam the heals.

There has to be some way to make healing very intricate and intense, without making it impossible to keep your group in its feet.

If anyone can create this system, it's the Simugods.

 

[frostydf2]

I honestly love being a support class. In every MMO I have played, I have been a support class. With FFXI I was a WHM/BLM up until level 30. Then I turned into WHM/BRD so I could support the party better. In Lineage 2 I loved being a prophet, it was one of my favorite classes. As Guild Wars, I was primary Monk all the time, if not one of the best in my opinon (although it is biased).

I love support classes, and what Simutronics is doing to is keep the basic classes, and add more. I love multi-classing, and am probably going to be playing a Bard/Cleric to be 100% support, and nothing needed, but truely wanted in a group.

 

[Javewa]

I like being a supporter, be it healer or buffbot. I always found it to be a rewarding class, and a popular, too. But I still need to be able to solo my char.

In WoW I enjoyed my Priest (skilled for healing from the very beginning). In Eve Online I like being able to transfer shields and remote repair my gang. It's basically the same as healing but with far more possibilites.

From what I've read so far, the dual-classes of HJ will offer some soloability with whatever secondary class you take for a Healer. Even a Buffbot Combo like Healer/Cleric, Healer/Bard sounds viable for solo so far. Dunno if Healer/Healer is possible.

Yeah, I'm some kind of carebear and not much into PvP. Good support can make the difference, and I want to be that difference.

 

[Korama]

My first MMORPG character ever was a Bard/White Mage in FFXI (the ultimate support combo in that game) and I loved it. It's great to be sought after by groups and support characters are always wanted to make everything go quicker and easier. I also like to know that I was a key member of the group and not just one of 3 damage dealers or whatever.

I've also found that people remember healers and support characters better than many others. I think if you do a good job of keeping your party alive, refreshed, etc. then it tends to stand out in people's minds more. Before you know it, people you've partyed with in the past are checking to see if you're online and can join their party before they go off questing. Saving another character's life or making his playing experience easier and more enjoyable is a great way to make lots of friends in game.

 

[frostydf2]

The great thing about playing a purely support class is that you get the satisfaction of knowing that people really do appreciate you being in their group. You are one of a kind if you do your job right. Every group has the basic tank, healer, damage dealer type group, but not every group will have hte oppurtunity of having a support. Casting regens on the group, damage buffers, etc.

I personally will love to be playing one in Hero's Journey

 

[Nainci]

Since I seem to be solo most of the time I have found it difficult to work a support character. I am thinking about a Ranger/Healer combo or perhaps a Ranger/Bard. I do think a support character does round out a group.