Dainarshial
Cadet
Why that one over there of course. *points*
Over population! (Lab)
- Thread starter kcrabtree0079
- Start date
WatchMaker
Cadet
kcrabtree0079
Cadet
My first question is... what was the point of this video? It seems to be telling me there are MORE stupid people rather than just more people in general. I think they are just trying to make money so they decided to make some kind of "freaky" video. I could be wrong but I don't buy anything from such a music video. Maybe if the band was a bit more credible... its Korn. I never liked Korn that much anyways so I am sort of prejudice here...
HJ-Pinnelipe
Cadet
I rather like that video! But kcrabtree is right. It seems to mention large population growth, but also be a LOT more about low I.Q.s. However! The I.Q. test is essentially flawed int aht it assumes too much about the people. It's a bit skewed towards certain races, certain people from certain backgrounds so I'd never hold that as a measure of intelligence. People are growing more stupid, though.
HJ-Diviana
Cadet
You know, fluoride has been known to damage IQ scores (i.e. people who have been drinking fluorided water their whole lives score a lot less than those who haven't).
Anyway, IQ tests are bunk. There is no test to measure true intelligence - the ability to learn.
I have a high IQ, but I don't know felgercarb. I am good at putting little blocks together or something though.
Anyway, IQ tests are bunk. There is no test to measure true intelligence - the ability to learn.
I have a high IQ, but I don't know felgercarb. I am good at putting little blocks together or something though.
Eniko
Cadet
Legos?I have a high IQ, but I don't know felgercarb. I am good at putting little blocks together or something though.
HJ-Pinnelipe
Cadet
Some deep conversations I've missed in the past few days
<breaks out a small table statue that is akin to the roman numeral II with two twin male figures standing next to each I symbol... it appears that it might be related to the birth sign, "Gemini">
Ok so I've established that I'm a Gemini in a whacked way... but why? Because I am sitting on the fence, seeing both sides, and of two minds to the whole shebang.
Are we overpopulated? No, not really. But we are a clustering species, in that, we gather where others congregate. We build towns, and cities, and then we stretch our tendrils of society out as those cities & towns, states & provinces, and nations grow. When a species grows and take up more room for its habitat, what happens? We destroy what is around us.
I live around the city of Phoenix/central Arizona region. It is much much more "open" than let's say... the Buffalo/Niagara Falls region of New York state. Why? Buffalo & Niagara Falls have more skysrapers. They don't compare to NYC or Toronto, but they do. Phoenix might have a dozen, or two... instead, the civilization around Phoenix spread outward, to inhabit the valley (The Salt Water River Valley, though oft quotes as "the valley of the sun")... thus we're more spread out, than the fine folks of Western NY state. Western NY'ers can move into the mountains... but it's a bit more treacherous, and since it's a bit "rocky" to build skycrapers on the sides of cliffs... people tend to congregate in the flatter areas. Phoenix, and the surrounding areas, have a few mountains, but mostly small... so therefor, build around them and spread out further. There is a lot of desert "untouched".
Now here is my problem... "untouched" isn't necessarily so. Here in AZ... people want to "get away"... so they take jeep tours... "out into the desert". Now there are trails from human activity cutting through wildlife habitats. Jeeps and other 4-wheel vehicles break down, people carry food & containers... and feel no wrong for tossing a soda can, or plastic bag, or beer bottle out into the desert as their driving. I experienced this first hand, when my grandfather took me 2 hours out into the desert as a 9 year old... I thought, "here we are... 2 hours away from any town or city, or any person... a good hunting spot"... only to walk 50 feet and find an old fire pit with broken beer bottles, tin cans, and cigarette butts everywhere. Being the eco-conscious folks, we brought some 50 gallon trash bags... about 4 if my memory serves right... and filled them all with said trash.
So, even though there is room to grow, we are spoiled, we think nothing is wrong with "taking it easy"... we spoil natural habits miles and miles and miles away from whatever civilization there may be. Yes, we drive deer away. Case in point: Amherst, NY. A rich snobby city (much like Scottsdale, AZ) that lies north/northeast of Buffalo, NY. Some years ago, they demolished a goodly sum of forest conservation lands for home improvement and development. All of a sudden, deer are jumping through wide open bay windows in residential sections of town... the towns response? Issue more hunting permits than any other year.
So, before I ramble more... my opinion is: we are getting overpopulated, by reason that we are pushing nature out of the way, and unbalancing the natural habitats... of the places we live. There are still many areas that suffer much less habitat destruction in the world. Global warming the cause of natural fuel usage? Not likely, though it may be a contributing factor... watch more nature shows... 1/2 show that it's human pollution, the other 1/2 show that "its just about the right time according to history where the world continues getting hotter before it starts getting colder again".
It's also an opinion of mine that people should watch how often they breed. Not to pester mexicans... but it's a joke around here... hit one with a car, and 5 more pop out of their corpse. Or any mexican family found with less than 4 family members, are still newlyweds, cuz we all know a real mexican family is 16 or more. This isn't necessarily racism, or prejudism... it's a cynics point of view experienced from a family of 4 or less family members, looking at a culture that says "a healthy family, is a large family". Many cultures deem "success" by the numbers of the family, or by other measures. U.S. residents base their measure of success on more material and money, typically.
*shrug* We're running out of space?! No. We're killing off the planet?! Maybe, but in the end, the planet will kill us off, either entirely, or in part, in order to restore it's own balance. People think I'm cruel when I think of cyclones, tornado's and Tsunami's that kill thousands and thousands of people. It's natures population control, when we can control the weather, then I'll be surprised. Am I saddened at the loss of human life? not really, it's a game we all will lose. Is this negativity? No, it's fact, coming from someone who is a Cancer survivor. I beat death, I don't want to die, but I know, I will.
Now, what am I doing to preserve a legacy or mark of my own behind in society? How will I benefit the world? How will you benefit the world? Maybe something for another discussion... since here we can discuss if the worlds coming to an end by means of overpopulation.
[... Edit: I brainstorm and type too much ... ]
<breaks out a small table statue that is akin to the roman numeral II with two twin male figures standing next to each I symbol... it appears that it might be related to the birth sign, "Gemini">
Ok so I've established that I'm a Gemini in a whacked way... but why? Because I am sitting on the fence, seeing both sides, and of two minds to the whole shebang.
Are we overpopulated? No, not really. But we are a clustering species, in that, we gather where others congregate. We build towns, and cities, and then we stretch our tendrils of society out as those cities & towns, states & provinces, and nations grow. When a species grows and take up more room for its habitat, what happens? We destroy what is around us.
I live around the city of Phoenix/central Arizona region. It is much much more "open" than let's say... the Buffalo/Niagara Falls region of New York state. Why? Buffalo & Niagara Falls have more skysrapers. They don't compare to NYC or Toronto, but they do. Phoenix might have a dozen, or two... instead, the civilization around Phoenix spread outward, to inhabit the valley (The Salt Water River Valley, though oft quotes as "the valley of the sun")... thus we're more spread out, than the fine folks of Western NY state. Western NY'ers can move into the mountains... but it's a bit more treacherous, and since it's a bit "rocky" to build skycrapers on the sides of cliffs... people tend to congregate in the flatter areas. Phoenix, and the surrounding areas, have a few mountains, but mostly small... so therefor, build around them and spread out further. There is a lot of desert "untouched".
Now here is my problem... "untouched" isn't necessarily so. Here in AZ... people want to "get away"... so they take jeep tours... "out into the desert". Now there are trails from human activity cutting through wildlife habitats. Jeeps and other 4-wheel vehicles break down, people carry food & containers... and feel no wrong for tossing a soda can, or plastic bag, or beer bottle out into the desert as their driving. I experienced this first hand, when my grandfather took me 2 hours out into the desert as a 9 year old... I thought, "here we are... 2 hours away from any town or city, or any person... a good hunting spot"... only to walk 50 feet and find an old fire pit with broken beer bottles, tin cans, and cigarette butts everywhere. Being the eco-conscious folks, we brought some 50 gallon trash bags... about 4 if my memory serves right... and filled them all with said trash.
So, even though there is room to grow, we are spoiled, we think nothing is wrong with "taking it easy"... we spoil natural habits miles and miles and miles away from whatever civilization there may be. Yes, we drive deer away. Case in point: Amherst, NY. A rich snobby city (much like Scottsdale, AZ) that lies north/northeast of Buffalo, NY. Some years ago, they demolished a goodly sum of forest conservation lands for home improvement and development. All of a sudden, deer are jumping through wide open bay windows in residential sections of town... the towns response? Issue more hunting permits than any other year.
So, before I ramble more... my opinion is: we are getting overpopulated, by reason that we are pushing nature out of the way, and unbalancing the natural habitats... of the places we live. There are still many areas that suffer much less habitat destruction in the world. Global warming the cause of natural fuel usage? Not likely, though it may be a contributing factor... watch more nature shows... 1/2 show that it's human pollution, the other 1/2 show that "its just about the right time according to history where the world continues getting hotter before it starts getting colder again".
It's also an opinion of mine that people should watch how often they breed. Not to pester mexicans... but it's a joke around here... hit one with a car, and 5 more pop out of their corpse. Or any mexican family found with less than 4 family members, are still newlyweds, cuz we all know a real mexican family is 16 or more. This isn't necessarily racism, or prejudism... it's a cynics point of view experienced from a family of 4 or less family members, looking at a culture that says "a healthy family, is a large family". Many cultures deem "success" by the numbers of the family, or by other measures. U.S. residents base their measure of success on more material and money, typically.
*shrug* We're running out of space?! No. We're killing off the planet?! Maybe, but in the end, the planet will kill us off, either entirely, or in part, in order to restore it's own balance. People think I'm cruel when I think of cyclones, tornado's and Tsunami's that kill thousands and thousands of people. It's natures population control, when we can control the weather, then I'll be surprised. Am I saddened at the loss of human life? not really, it's a game we all will lose. Is this negativity? No, it's fact, coming from someone who is a Cancer survivor. I beat death, I don't want to die, but I know, I will.
Now, what am I doing to preserve a legacy or mark of my own behind in society? How will I benefit the world? How will you benefit the world? Maybe something for another discussion... since here we can discuss if the worlds coming to an end by means of overpopulation.
[... Edit: I brainstorm and type too much ... ]
*looks for Numbers to substantiate Claims*Jaraeth said:
*find's some at National Geographic and IUCN*
Not overpopulated yet ? According to them 80% of the Forests are already gone, and the current Extinctionrate is hundreds of times higher than it would naturally be. If that's not explicit i don't know what is.
I agree - but you make it sound like the whole Overpopulation-Question was about Humanity and the survival of our Race (maybe i'm mistaken). Isn't it more about the Environment we want to live in ?Jaraeth said:
You did provide the numbers, and I will admit that I base my opinion on the fact that there is a lot more space for humans to move into. However, I am thinking that, if humans could not spread outward, they'd build up, as well as find ways to spread themselves into those areas of the earth that are normally uninhabitable.... ie: antarctica, mountains, deserts, etc. We claim we could build domes and live on the moon... so why don't we do this in our deserts like Death Valley and Antarctica so that the extreme temperatures can be controlled within those harsher ecosystems?
I think humanity can build upwards and not just out. Ever see the movie "The Fifth Element" ? Yeah, I can see humanity reluctantly building up like that. Even if it might be much to our demise.
Well, in part, you're right. Anytime I have ever heard of 'overpopulation' it is because someone is thinking about humanity and "OMG! What are we going to do if we outgrow our planets surface!!1!"... Build up instead of out? I feel we will kill off our planets forests, both plant life and animal life. The ecosystems across the world will go whacky, and we'll get new diseases and problems that we feel we need to cure.
What I would like to see is the kind of life presented in Star Trek... believe it or not. People working for the benefit of the greater society. Pretty soon, our governments will be corporations, giant mega-Wal-Mart's, where society works for the pocket books of greater corporations world wide.... and I'd hate to live in that society. However, humanity can move in either direction, and how we choose to direct ourselves, will help determine what we do with our overpopulation dilemna that we're worried about.
HJ-Diviana
Cadet
I pretty much concur with this statement.
HJ-Navarre
Cadet
Maybe it is as simple as keeping the deer and other game population in check - Hunting licenses.
We could let criminals go in an open field and give them a head start. We could even televise it for reality TV.
Running Man anyone? No? *crickets*
We could let criminals go in an open field and give them a head start. We could even televise it for reality TV.
Running Man anyone? No? *crickets*
Gate
Cadet
Heh, I've had similar thoughts. In terms of reality tv, it harkens back to the days of the Roman gladiatorial matches. You could even make it gladiator matches between them instead of hunting.
Actually I hate to interject a bit of reality into a joke, but managing deer isn't as "simple" as issuing hunting liscences. I've studied Pennsylvania's deer management system and from year to year they are somewhere around 0.5-3% in "takings" away from a population crash or boom. They walk the razor's edge every year and all it takes is one mis-estimation and you've got a problem that may not be easily fixable. Hunting, contrary to simple misconception, not a good way to maintain a stable population. Extensive limitations on takings based on age and gender, season and location do help greatly. However, these limitations require a whole system behind them to manage and regulate as well as a heck of alot of science and observation. Around half a million deer are killed each season in Pennsylvania alone to control the population.
Birth control (yes they have birth control for deer) is one of the hardest to implement but the surest route to a stable population. And so it is with humans...
HJ-Dezorin
Cadet
A late vote, I know, but I just ran across this poll just now.
I voted no; we are not over populated. I think it's mainly perception, of especially Americans, who tend to have a more rural view on the world. So cities and other dense areas feel overpopulated, but it's an organizational mechanic and perception.
If we organized and lived like, say, the Japanese, we are very, very far from overpopulated. If we're talking livable landmass / arable land and raw head count of people.
Not even close. Give 10 billion Chinese the US east coast and they'd manage.
Buuut, if you all want 30 acres of land, a ranch, and a couple pick up trucks. Yeah, we're overpopulated. Leave it to Americans to expand outward, rather than upward.
I voted no; we are not over populated. I think it's mainly perception, of especially Americans, who tend to have a more rural view on the world. So cities and other dense areas feel overpopulated, but it's an organizational mechanic and perception.
If we organized and lived like, say, the Japanese, we are very, very far from overpopulated. If we're talking livable landmass / arable land and raw head count of people.
Not even close. Give 10 billion Chinese the US east coast and they'd manage.
Buuut, if you all want 30 acres of land, a ranch, and a couple pick up trucks. Yeah, we're overpopulated. Leave it to Americans to expand outward, rather than upward.
Gate
Cadet
I would point out that China is very much a net importer of food and other resources. The ability to cram people into a space is not representative of how many people can live in that designated space. For that you need to look at ecological footprints.
That is to say, how much land is required for a single person to live in their current lifestyle. This includes land needed for food production, collection and harvesting of minerals and metals and wood, and other necessities. Give 10 billion Chinese the east coast and our current lifestyle and they would suck the world dry in no time flat. As the Indians and Chinese progress toward "modern" standards of living we are seeing drastic increases in their ecological footprints (and carbon footprints, etc).
To quote an article on the subject:
"Today, humanity's Ecological Footprint is over 23% larger than what the planet can regenerate. In other words, it now takes more than one year and two months for the Earth to regenerate what we use in a single year. We maintain this overshoot by liquidating the planet's ecological resources. This is a vastly underestimated threat and one that is not adequately addressed."
A few articles on the subject:
http://www.footprintnetwork.org/gfn_sub.php?content=footprint_overview
Ecological footprint - Wikipedia
edit: To address the argument against "our current lifestyle" vs. the way most Chinese are living now:
Telling people not to "advance" really just doesn't work, and China, slowly but surely, is taking a more western view on how they want to live, as is most of the world. Take the new Indian car manufacturer putting out the $2k car... perfect example. Even those who can't "afford" to make the change still try to find a way to make the upgrade and will vastly and rapidly expand their footprints in the process.
That is to say, how much land is required for a single person to live in their current lifestyle. This includes land needed for food production, collection and harvesting of minerals and metals and wood, and other necessities. Give 10 billion Chinese the east coast and our current lifestyle and they would suck the world dry in no time flat. As the Indians and Chinese progress toward "modern" standards of living we are seeing drastic increases in their ecological footprints (and carbon footprints, etc).
To quote an article on the subject:
"Today, humanity's Ecological Footprint is over 23% larger than what the planet can regenerate. In other words, it now takes more than one year and two months for the Earth to regenerate what we use in a single year. We maintain this overshoot by liquidating the planet's ecological resources. This is a vastly underestimated threat and one that is not adequately addressed."
A few articles on the subject:
http://www.footprintnetwork.org/gfn_sub.php?content=footprint_overview
Ecological footprint - Wikipedia
edit: To address the argument against "our current lifestyle" vs. the way most Chinese are living now:
Telling people not to "advance" really just doesn't work, and China, slowly but surely, is taking a more western view on how they want to live, as is most of the world. Take the new Indian car manufacturer putting out the $2k car... perfect example. Even those who can't "afford" to make the change still try to find a way to make the upgrade and will vastly and rapidly expand their footprints in the process.
HJ-Dezorin
Cadet
Aye, it was my point. Live an American lifestyle, and yes we're overpopulated. If every Chinese drove a buick, we'd all be dead.
I know they are gravitating more toward a western style of life, which is not a good thing. You cannot tell people not to advance, true. But there is threat of too many people living an... excessive lifestyle, like Americans or other westerners.
I guess the trouble is, we have to change the status quo so that we ourselves live a more eco-friendly life, and make it goal for the rest of the world to not drive gas guzzling Buicks, to build up and not out, and to just generally organize in a fashion that is more conducive to longevity -- and not just quarterly fiscal reports or what is most comfortable at the time.
Of course, we want everyone to live their meager lives while we continue to live our comfortable ones... right?
I'm no one to talk though. I drive a non-emissions controlled vehicle to work everyday. Lord knows the lb/mile emission figures on it. But it's fast as hell!
That's my one evil, though. I live a pretty modest lifestyle, otherwise. At least by American standards.