Politics Europe in Crisis,

[noggi16]

EU 'in crisis' over talks failure 

The French president was scathing about the British stance
The EU is in "deep crisis", says its current President Jean Claude Juncker, after budget talks broke down over a bitter row between the UK and France.
France condemned the UK for rejecting a deal to have its EU rebate frozen.

President Jacques Chirac said he "deplored" Britain's "pathetic" desire to "keep the entirety of its cheque".

Britain argued that any deal must be linked to reform of EU farm subsidies - but France, the biggest beneficiary of those subsidies, rejected this.

One compromise offered by Luxembourg was turned down by Britain; another was described by a British official as "even worse".

Afterwards, Luxembourg's leader, Jean Claude Juncker, who currently holds the rotating EU presidency, accused some nations of lacking the political will to reach a settlement.

 
If we remove the rebate, we have to remove the reasons for its existence

British PM Tony Blair

Diplomats and others, he said, "will tell you that Europe is not in crisis".

"It is in a deep crisis."

His comments were echoed by German Chancellor Gerhard Schroeder, who said: "We are in one of the worst political crises Europe has ever seen".

The Brussels summit also ended without any plan to save a proposed constitution rejected by French and Dutch voters in recent referendums.

'Distortion of expenditure'

Mr Chirac said Mr Blair tried to "safeguard his entire rebate, and that led other countries to overplay their hand".

"That is a bad result for Europe," he said.

 


Constitution woes
Summit diary

Mr Blair has claimed four or five other nations - among the 25 EU members - supported his decision to reject the deal.

Asked if France and Luxembourg had sought to isolate Britain in the row, Mr Blair replied: "If it was such an attempt, it failed."

There was fighting talk from Mr Blair, says our correspondent Jonny Dymond, and it attracted the undisguised bitterness and hostility of Britain's biggest partners in the EU.

Mr Blair said the British rebate was itself the result of a "distortion of expenditure across the EU" and therefore, "if we remove the rebate, we have to remove the reasons for its existence".

He went on to attack the Common Agricultural Policy (Cap), which decides EU farm subsidies, for diverting to agriculture funds that would be better deployed on science, technology and education.

The UK is set to take over the EU presidency at the start of next month.

Horns locked

Britain said it will veto any cut in the 4.4bn euro (£3bn) rebate unless farm subsidies are overhauled, a stance which puts it at loggerheads with France.


HAVE YOUR SAY
The EU does not exist only for the benefit of the UK

Niclas, Uppsala, Sweden


Send us your comments


French President Jacques Chirac refused to discuss any cut in farm subsidies and says the rebate should "under no circumstances be linked to a reform of farm expenditure".



The BBC's William Horsley in Brussels says the summit descended into a bitter feud about what Europe is for and who should decide its future.

Earlier, the leaders put the EU constitution on hold by abandoning a 2006 deadline for ratification, following the 'No' votes in the French and Dutch referendums on the issue.

The proposed constitution, which needs to be ratified by all 25 member states, is designed to define the future direction of the union and the way it is run.

BBC

Personally I think Blair's proposal is the fairest on offer. He has not said no to reforming the rebate only to reforming it with out CAP, Chirac might ask why he should tell French farmers they are out of business, well why should British taxpayers subsidies ineffiecent French farmers at the detriment to Africa?

Is it Britains fault that France has a welfare state it can't afford, an outdated economic model and that farmers don't make any money? No, so why should I as a taxpayer pay for the French. I'd much rather by my food from Africa, it would be cheaper, more efficent and the money would do some good.

 

[ashqua]

Nice!
I think Britain is as guilty as France if not more!
The actual pdt of Europe said he was ashamed! because some of the poorest country said that they were willing to pay for UK (one of the most richer country in Europe -_- ) . And you know what? I agree with him! I don't see why poor countries have to pay more than UK.
It's as simple as that!

As for French farmers, I live in a region where there are many, and they need the help for Europe to live! Without it they would have to stop everything, and they would be poor! Even if there are a lot (3% of the active population, they make a a lot of money) The Americans can a lot of money to their farmers too, so it's only a fair thing.

I have studied EU at school this year and believe me France and UK have such an history together that I don't even know why we should be surprised by the situation
::

President De Gaulle said no to UK twice, so you had to wait until there was a new president to get in EU. And from what I have seen at school you weren't for EU at first, you even created something. A free trade zone with some other Europeans countries.


Believe me I have nothing against you or UK, it's just that time has changed and there are things that have to change too! Like the money you give to EU

 

[noggi16]

So let me get this right, I should pay more tax to keep your highly ineffiecent farmers in business, at the same time, denying an African country a new export market.

Not a cat in hells chance, I'm afraid.

The actual pdt of Europe said he was ashamed! because some of the poorest country said that they were willing to pay for UK (one of the most richer country in Europe  ) . And you know what? I agree with him! I don't see why poor countries have to pay more than UK.
It's as simple as that!

Well, I don't see why France can't diversify its industry, and get rid of the CAP. Did you 40% of the EU buget goes into CAP, and of that a quarter goes to France.

Do you know why we are one of the richest countries in Europe? In the 1980's we weren't, we were on of the poorest countries in Europe, thats why we got a rebate. But then we had Thatcher and a new kind of ideology. We got rid of union control and power to cripple industries, let ineffiecent and unproductive industries go to the wall, with the loss of thousands of jobs in rural areas, we endured riots, 3 day weeks, and mass unemployment. Our economy was so bad. We had two recessions in 12 years.

But look now, 7 years of uninterrupted growth, while France (and Germany) have mass unemployment, ineffiecent industries and militant unions.

So exactly whose fault is it that France runs an outdated ineffiecent social model? And why should I pay for it?

We are being so reasonable its untrue. If Mrs Thatcher was still in power, the answer just have been no, good fortune for you then, you get Blair who has offered to compramise, on this if you agree to reform farm subsidies.

And this isn't just our opinion, other Northern European countries want budget reform. And how dare Chirac call our stance tragic and pathetic, the man must not recognise compramise, how dare he play with our national finances, just because he is so unpopular.

As for French farmers, I live in a region where there are many, and they need the help for Europe to live! Without it they would have to stop everything, and they would be poor! Even if there are a lot (3% of the active population, they make a a lot of money) The Americans can a lot of money to their farmers too, so it's only a fair thing.

Well our coal miners did it, there is always another job they can do. And the fact they can't survive without CAP should tell you something. And the fact that French farming would be bankrupt with out it does tell me something. They make no money. and how many people in Africa could we take out of poverty if they were allowed to sell to Europe, instead of being flooded by cheap french imports. Now, I don't believe in protectionism so don't think the Americans should do it either but thats there decision, two wrongs don't make a right. And the CAP might be good for you, but it doesn't make it right.

Thats not to say anything of reports of criminal damage to imports from other EU countries.

And the fact, under EU law, state aid is illegal, yet we still pay farmers? Thats not consistent.

President De Gaulle said no to UK twice, so you had to wait until there was a new president to get in EU. And from what I have seen at school you weren't for EU at first, you even created something. A free trade zone with some other Europeans countries.


Believe me I have nothing against you or UK, it's just that time has changed and there are things that have to change too! Like the money you give to EU

Yes we did have EFTA, which would have worked quite well. And times have changed, protectionism went out somewhere in the 1900s. Time to live in the real market.

And you blocked the services directive. Are french industries scared to compete in the real world without an EU cushion? CAP needs to go.

 

[ashqua]

I don't think we will agree on that!
I respect your opinion, I just don't share it or understand it ::
Thanks to the farmer you were criticizing your food is less expensive and just a thing I agree with you, we have to help those African countries. The only pb is that they don't have all the technology the French, Spanish, italian... farmers use! So most of the things they produce they sell it to the rest of the world and not to those who live in their country!
Good thing, no?
Those ppl are so poor that they can't pay their food! No thanks, they can keep it for their population and when they will have more than they need in their country sell it to the rest of the world. I don't have a pb with that, in fact I wouldn't mind buying food coming from Africa. I was born in North Africa so I kind of know what I'm talking about -_-

And sure you were poor before but it's not the case anymore! You have to realize that things have changed and you have to pay more now !

And you know what? I don't care about France having a well fair system you don't like! Because at least I don't have to worry about going to see my doc when I'm sick and trying to see how I can pay him!

I've a disease that forces me to follow a special regime but some of the things I have to are really expensive (4 times the price of a normal cake for example) . Thanks to the protection system a part of it is
I know it's not the best system is the world and we are changing things. I know we are doing it slowly but at least we are doing something!
When I look at the bills of some of the specialists I went to see I'm shocked! It's really expensive! Thank god my parents have a good insurance that refunded, but we have to pay every month. And it's a little expensive but at least we don't have to worry about money.

I'm sick, I call the doc I get the medicine and that's all. I pay a little for that and I'm done with it!

How do you think ppl who aren't as lucky as me do? They ask for help to the social security and they get it! Because in our country there is something called solidarity.

In UK do you have that? No I don't think. Sure you have less unemployment but at what cost? We aren't ready for that, it's as simple as that. The country as a policy that says that we have to help the less stronger and we try to follow it.


I have nothing against UK or British ppl!!! I know many ppl from UK and we get along very well! It's just on that that I don't agree. So I have nothing against what you think ^_^

 

[B'Elanna Paris]

Europe in Crisis? Boo Hoo!

Seriously, why should we subsidise the French farmers for producing food that is going to waste anyway? The British farming industry has had to change its practices and quickly to survive recent years, yes some farms have fell by the way side, but if they not making money and cannot stand market forces why should they be given money to keep going? NZ and Aussie farmers seem to survive okay without help, so why shouldn't France?

I don't see why poor countries have to pay more than UK.

The poorer countries don't. Germany and I believe the Netherlands pay more than us.

Anyway, the argument over the rebate is just a smokescreen that has been put up Chirac because of France's rejection of the constitution.

 

[Sex-Dwarf]

I think there needs to be radical shakeup of E.U farming subsidies accross the board. Why should E.U farmers make produce where half of it ends up as waste. It is absurd that farmers are getting to subsidies to make produce that just ends up as waste.

 

[ashqua]

I agree on the waste thing, believe me I do. Esp when you all the ppl who don't eat enough or who don't eat at all :angry:
Unfortunately for us, it's how our world is! I agree on the Principe of giving less to the farmers but not on stopping giving them money!
We have this Pb in Europe that consist in criticizing Europe every time there is something wrong! When there is employment it's Europe's fault, when there is I don't know what it's again Europe's fault.
We have to stop that! As much as Europe is criticized, it has helped a lot of ppl and given money to a lot of countries.

I think France and UK aren't mean to agree on something :lol: . Remember the war that lasted 100 years :lol:

I think our life style are so different that it's hard to understand each other sometimes. Now it's one of those times
But I'm sure we will find something soon

 

[noggi16]

Europe in Crisis? Boo Hoo!

Well said.

Thanks to the farmer you were criticizing your food is less expensive

Actually thats not true, food is more expensive because of the CAP. Food in Europe is some of the dearest in the world, because we are paying extra to keep ineffeicent farmers in business.

The only pb is that they don't have all the technology the French, Spanish, italian... farmers use! So most of the things they produce they sell it to the rest of the world and not to those who live in their country!
Good thing, no?Those ppl are so poor that they can't pay their food! No thanks, they can keep it for their population and when they will have more than they need in their country sell it to the rest of the world.

In some African countries, eg Zimbabwe pre-Mugabe, they did have technology. And it doesn't work like you think it does. You subsidies your farmers, so we pay more for food because the price level is artifically set, then whatever is left over can be exported out to Africa and sold cheaper than they can grow it. So they have no export market, in Europe because there are tarrifs when it comes it, and they have no home market because its been flooded with european exports. They have no where to sell their food. And most of it comes down to the CAP.

But a lot of the farming has died in Africa, because its not cost effective, why do think people are starving even now?

And sure you were poor before but it's not the case anymore! You have to realize that things have changed and you have to pay more now !

So basically, I should pay more tax, just so your farmers don't go through what we did in the 1980s. People become unemployed, its a fact of life.

In UK do you have that? No I don't think. Sure you have less unemployment but at what cost? We aren't ready for that, it's as simple as that. The country as a policy that says that we have to help the less stronger and we try to follow it.

Actually, yes, we do. We have a national health service, we all have an NHS story, but I'm having a £3000 operation on the 14th of July on my tooth, for free. So its not one or the other. Its just having the courage to go through with the difficult reforms.

The poorer countries don't. Germany and I believe the Netherlands pay more than us.

I think we pay more in volume than Netherlands, but they pay more per person. But still we pay a lot considering what we get out of it.

Anyway, the argument over the rebate is just a smokescreen that has been put up Chirac because of France's rejection of the constitution.

Exactly.

I think there needs to be radical shakeup of E.U farming subsidies accross the board. Why should E.U farmers make produce where half of it ends up as waste. It is absurd that farmers are getting to subsidies to make produce that just ends up as waste.

I wrote a massive essay about CAP and to try and get away from the system that pays them to overproduce, they pay them for "rural devolpment" basically growing grass.

Unfortunately for us, it's how our world is! I agree on the Principe of giving less to the farmers but not on stopping giving them money!
We have this Pb in Europe that consist in criticizing Europe every time there is something wrong! When there is employment it's Europe's fault, when there is I don't know what it's again Europe's fault.

What so we should just let people in Africa die. And we criticise Europe because theres so much wrong. Its ineffiecent, bueracratic, it wastes money hand over fist, there was an article in the Independent about how much it would save if the Parliament was just in Brussels, and if was a fortune, but the French stopped that idea because the other place it sits, oh its in France.

I think France and UK aren't mean to agree on something  . Remember the war that lasted 100 years

You don't want to get into that, because we won that, and then I might start talking about Trafalger and Waterloo.

 

[B'Elanna Paris]

I think France and UK aren't mean to agree on something :lol: . Remember the war that lasted 100 years :lol:

[post="1385017"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]​

It ended? :lol:

 

[AliasHombre]

See what happens when people bash America too much? Their economies crumble.

 

[ashqua]

AliasHombre[/b] : I'm not sure if I understood what you have said correctely

 

[Tuga]

See what happens when people bash America too much? Their economies crumble.

This time the problem is inside Europe... I think it got worst when France and Neetherlands said No to the Constituition. It kinda of "Broke" Europe. And this week we had that proof.
And we can't compare Europe economies to America. Europe has many different countries with many different economies... And outside Europe the problem comes from China.

At least if there is no more EU there will be still Germany and France
I swear Chirac and Shrored (sp?) are best buddies

I wonder how long that will last...

LOLOL... and yeah... the war between France and England will never end. Can't you guys agree on something?? :lol:

As for Chirac, he can do all he wants but he can't make us forget we (not me  ) said no to the constitution. Just look at the most recent polls (27% of the population approve his actions)

You see... I think that was the problem. ok... I'm not French and I'm probably wrong ... But I believe people didn't say No to the Constitution. They said No to their President... or the government. I would like to know what did people know about the Constitution when they voted.
Anyways... lets see how this will end.
I'm not very confident...

 

[the_alliance]

whatever it is, we need Europe to stand together. if not, the US will become too powerful for anybody to control (well, maybe besides China, but do we really want Communists to be the only check against the US?).

 

[noggi16]

See what happens when people bash America too much? Their economies crumble.

See now thats what makes people not like you.

I'm not sure anymore

annivesary of Nelson's victory this year.

I wonder how long that will last...

Till october, when he gets booted out.

You see... I think that was the problem. ok... I'm not French and I'm probably wrong ... But I believe people didn't say No to the Constitution. They said No to their President... or the government. I would like to know what did people know about the Constitution when they voted.
Anyways... lets see how this will end.

Thats an excuse, Europe is unpopular, bureacratic and needs to reform or die.

Anyway we assume the presidency of the G8 soon and of EU presidency on July 15th. If Chirac even dreams of destroying the one chance we have to make a real difference to Africa, I will be furious.

 

[ashqua]

See what happens when people bash America too much?  Their economies crumble.

[post="1385801"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]​

Sorry I didn't know that we have to consult the US before taking a decision.
Is it a new rule that I didn't of.
Excuse us if we want something a little bit different from the US.
Is it a crime?

This time the problem is inside Europe... I think it got worst when France and Neetherlands said No to the Constituition. It kinda of "Broke" Europe. And this week we had that proof.
And we can't compare Europe economies to America. Europe has many different countries with many different economies... And outside Europe the problem comes from China.
I wonder how long that will last...

You are right, I don't know what will happen know that France and the Netherlands have said no
You are right, in Europe you have 25 countries, some of them are rich others aren't. Some were communists others liberal... We have to work on that first. It's really different from the US. As for China you are right, look at the crisis b/w EU/China or US/China on the textile, we both have the same pb

LOLOL... and yeah... the war between France and England will never end. Can't you guys agree on something??  :lol:

We agreed on something, the first world war
Oh and the Second

You see... I think that was the problem. ok... I'm not French and I'm probably wrong ... But I believe people didn't say No to the Constitution. They said No to their President... or the government. I would like to know what did people know about the Constitution when they voted.
Anyways... lets see how this will end.
I'm not very confident...

You are right, but it's also because some ppl are scared of Europe. The don't really understand how it works so they prefer to say no . They didn't want to say yes and then regret it
Our former PM wasn't' popular! For 3 yrs ppl have asked him to leave his job and some of the laws he voted were hated! We had big demonstrations, the most recent one were the students demonstration. No wonder why I spent so much time at home :lol:

whatever it is, we need Europe to stand together. if not, the US will become too powerful for anybody to control (well, maybe besides China, but do we really want Communists to be the only check against the US?).

[post="1386262"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]​

You are right!
We can't live in a world with only the US, I have nothing against them. I just thing it would be better to have 2 models instead of one. Countries can chose which models is the best for them.
And it will also prevent the US from doing all they want in the world. I remember my history class :lol: , after the fall of the wall there was only the US. Now there is the US and the EU, I think it's better that way

See now thats what makes people not like you.

annivesary of Nelson's victory this year.
Till october, when he gets booted out.
Thats an excuse, Europe is unpopular, bureacratic and needs to reform or die.

Anyway we assume the presidency of the G8 soon and of EU presidency on July 15th. If Chirac even dreams of destroying the one chance we have to make a real difference to Africa, I will be furious.

[post="1387322"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]​

Sorry to tell you this, but Chirac isn't as selfish as you want to make us believe it
I'm not Chirac's fan believe me, I don't vote for his side
But he is for the dvpt of the African countries he doesn't want them to depend on us for their food, water, technology. He tries to help them, so please don't try to make me believe Chirac wants to spoil the G8 alone, because it's going to be hard!
And also UK can't change things alone!

One last thing, France agreed to erase the debts of the poorest country of the world just like the others countries of the G8


I think it's time for me to stop comming here because it's leading us nowhere ::::

 

[Tuga]

See now thats what makes people not like you.

LOL :lol:

Thats an excuse, Europe is unpopular, bureacratic and needs to reform or die.

Honetsly I think people don't care for Europe. They havn't enought knowledge about it... they aren't informed. And that's because the politicians don't care. They don't even try to explain.
I agree... It needs an urgent reform. It needs good people in front of it... But the truth is... how can 25 different countries can work perfectly together? They can't It's an hard job...

Sorry to tell you this, but Chirac isn't as selfish as you want to make us believe it
I'm not Chirac's fan believe me, I don't vote for his side

He is as chelfish as it is Blair as all of them are.

whatever it is, we need Europe to stand together. if not, the US will become too powerful for anybody to control

Not that I'm an experct but In a near future US won't grow up... won't becoome more powerfull... the same goes to Europe.

Like the title says there is a Crisis and we're in the middle of it

Just wondering... are you guys Pro-Turkey?

 

[noggi16]

You are right, in Europe you have 25 countries, some of them are rich others aren't. Some were communists others liberal... We have to work on that first. It's really different from the US. As for China you are right, look at the crisis b/w EU/China or US/China on the textile, we both have the same pb

No we don't. We don't have to run a political union. The best thing would be to return to totally free trade area in Europe, that gives everyone a market, and then you can have your social model, we'll run the liberal model. Everyone will be happy.

We agreed on something, the first world war
Oh and the Second

Only because we dislike the Germans more than we dislike you (thats a joke, just in case anyone doesn't get it. I like French people and germans. I'm talking historically)

Sorry to tell you this, but Chirac isn't as selfish as you want to make us believe it
I'm not Chirac's fan believe me, I don't vote for his side 
But he is for the dvpt of the African countries he doesn't want them to depend on us for their food, water, technology. He tries to help them, so please don't try to make me believe Chirac wants to spoil the G8 alone, because it's going to be hard!
And also UK can't change things alone!

One last thing, France agreed to erase the debts of the poorest country of the world just like the others countries of the G8

The man is as bent as a nine bob note. (that means corrupt) I wouldn't put it past him. Basically he is picking on Britian to reflect the fact France voted no. If he wants to give more money to the new member states, why don't they give up some of their subsidies?

Just wondering... are you guys Pro-Turkey?

Extreamly. If Turkish reforms carry on I think it would be an excellent thing to allow Turkey in. Its a massive market, there will be loads of investment. This is not (despite what France might say a Chrisitian union)

 

[Azhria Lilu]

In the US, many states are much wealthier than others. New York and California come to mind.

Many states are also more populous than others. Yet to get smaller states-to-be to join the union, there had to be a legislative body where each state, no matter its size, had equal representation (the senate).

 

[noggi16]

In the US, many states are much wealthier than others. New York and California come to mind.

Many states are also more populous than others. Yet to get smaller states-to-be to join the union, there had to be a legislative body where each state, no matter its size, had equal representation (the senate).

But the EU is not a country. I don't want to be a state of Europe, I'm quite happy being British.

 

[Jinnie]

AliasHombre, that was just petty. And completely off-topic. This American and Bush supporter (meaning me) was insulted on their behalf. Don't do that again.