Saddam Hussein's Trial

Honestly, incompetance in New Orleans and the action in Iraq are apples and oranges. As I said, for the 650,000 figure to be true, it means a lot of things, but the really basic, simple one:

* Half a million death certificates would have to have been received by families which were never officially recorded as having been issued. *

I mean, do you honestly believe that's the case??? Do you honestly think half a million death certificates could be withheld and no one would say anything??? C'mon!!!
 
Dirk, that was an excellently delivered and well thought out explaination. And I have to agree with it completely based on my own research and knowledge.
One thing I have to add is that while, as you say, he was not stupid, he did have some remarkable lapses in judgement during his leadership, such as the Iran-Iraq war that sapped his country's resources for the better part of a decade. But overall, yes, I agree with you on that point. As far as being secular goes, I remember an argument from one of my classmates in college that in Iraq a woman could walk down the street in a jogging suit, call a man an idiot to his face, and remain unpunished, while in our ally, Saudi Arabia, she could have faced severe penalties.

As far as the evaluation of the US's actions in Iraq go, I'd say even our timing in starting the war was damning. We withdrew critical forces from Afghanistan who had Bin Laden pinned down in a portion of the country (albeit a rugged, difficult to secure one). Instead of closing the noose by committing further forces to finish the job, the needed operatives had already been committed to preparations for the Iraq invasion. Then, inexplicably, even those forces who were containing him were sapped away. Because of events such as these, and Afghanistan's continual backward slide, and because of Iraq's downward slide into a terrorist breeding ground, I would have to say there is no doubt that we have made the world less secure against terrorism than it was before we went into Iraq.

That is the critical point that many people seem to forget. We went into Afghanistan to shut down terrorist training camps and oust a terror-supporting regime. We went into Iraq to oust a dictator who had been contained for a decade because of highly disputed intelligence on weapons of mass destruction that were, should they actually exist, very unlikely to find their way into terrorist hands. And in doing so, we removed troops from Afghanistan, thereby worsening the situation there.


Since I just refreshed the page and saw blur's latest comments, I'll respond to that as well. I agree that its unlikely, however, did you know that the Iraqi government is so worried about casualty figures that the PM demanded that figures not be released to the Red Cross anymore? That doesn't convey a good feeling about the numbers. In addition, many portions of Iraq are still without proper infrastructure. Part of a good political infrastructure is proper record keeping and document issuing. While I do have serious doubts about the half a mil. figure, I also have serious doubts about the 50k figure.
 
No, and I'm not about to deny the casualties are super-low, or anything, either. I just think The Lancet suggesting 650,000 is grossly irresponsible as they only need check that against some simple facts -- like the ones listed in my earlier post -- to realise that they might have over egged the pudding a little. People have died, and it IS a tragedy, but the figures are being blown out of all proportion, too.
 
Yeah Gate, Saddam did screw the pooch a few times in his career.
Iran/Iraq war was one and invading Kuwait another. But when you want to set your self up as the new Saladin, I guess one feels the need for a little expansionism and or ridding one's self of one's rivals.
There is ample evidence that he was on a downward spiral mentally and I bet we could have made use of that and eventually gotten him to implode and take his inner circle and close supporters with him.
 
Actually another spin on the Iraq deal, since everyone who's so for Saddam swinging avoided answering my questions..
The Kurds were set to over take the secular divisions and turn Iraq into Kurdistan. Which would have had Turkey and Iran at odds I'm certain. I honestly agree with some of the fallen soldiers I knew, now it's trickle down oil economics. Fun, fun.

Also 50k civilians can happen in a month between the various sides clashing. There's cities leveled. These are populated cities that weren't nuked but they had some of the most advance explosives tax payer's dollars could buy blanket tens of square miles.
Plot out a 10 mile square in a small city, like Louisville, Kentucky. Estimate the number of lives that'd be lost.
 
Uh, Luciro, you do realise it's not US doing the trial, right? It's under Islamic law done by his own people on the Tribunal. So yes, he gets a hanging, by their own verdict. The trial may be a sham, but hey, it's his own people doing this, not us.
 
Iraq, at the time of the first Gulf war had the 4th largest army in the world. There were a major threat to the stability in the Middle East. Saddam had used chemical weapons and there was no reason to believe he would not use them again. He lost the first war and conditions were set down that allowed him to remain in control of Iraq. He choose to disregard those conditions. That was all the reason that was needed for the second war. It is now our responsibility to remain until the new Iraq government has the resources to maintain the peace on their own. There is bloodshed and it will continue, change is never easy. Eastern Europe, Russia, and the other former USSR are going through their own difficult times also. The US suffered through it in oir own civil war that still ranks as our bloodiest war. Do you really think things were better for Iraq and the future of Iraq when Saddam was in power?
 
HJ-Girasol said:
Uh, Luciro, you do realise it's not US doing the trial, right? It's under Islamic law done by his own people on the Tribunal. So yes, he gets a hanging, by their own verdict. The trial may be a sham, but hey, it's his own people doing this, not us.

It's not us? Really?

I utterly disagree and there's not even a paper thin veil over the fact our troops and our intrests in the country have mingled in the trial. Check out the list of lawyers, who chose which judge, and by which laws the trial would be held under. Arabic names, but where'd they go to school? Who was putting up the money for the media coverage? Any Americans testify or presented evidence at any point in the case?
It's us. Don't take my word for it by any means. Research it.
 
Sylvado, while I really do understand the sentiment behind your opinions, I've always found all or nothing opinions very distasteful. It's not EITHER kick out Saddam the way we did or leave Iraq to rot. There are many different courses of action that could have been followed on many different time tables. For example, was it really so urgent that we take him out at that very moment? Even though it cost us greatly in our attempts to catch Bin Laden and bring democracy to Afghanistan? Is a "what if" about his wish to have chemical weapons in sufficient quantities to harm another country really enough? What about the fact that his violations of the limitations placed upon his weapons were very small?

As I always say, I'm NOT defending his actions. I simply want to make sure the debate is about the right issues.
Do you feel that we should have conducted the war at a different time or in a different manner or are you satisfied with the way things were done? I do agree that change was necessary, but the manner of change and the results of the changes are what I take issue with.
 
I'd much rather he would have been assassinated but the problem was not just a small group of men, it was the Ba'ath party. They, the Sunnis, were the minority in Iraq but they controlled the government. I don't think there was any other way to remove them. Since the US was responsible for him being in power in the first place, it was up to us to clean up the mess.
 
I actually believe it would have been possible to get Hussein to implode under his own need for control and from his paranoia.

Step One: Push for stronger enforcement of the esisting U.N. sanctions while pushing for new ones.

Step Two: Never ending weapons inspections:

Step Three:
Open appeals for increased democracy within Iraq and for the developement of a functional opposition.

Step Four: Call four Hussein to be ousted.

Step Five: Initiate war crimes charages against Hussein and all applicable cronys.

Step Six: Set up a "bounty" for the delivery of Hussein to the war crimes tribunal, then leak and then deny it's existence.

Step Seven: Set up swiss bank accounts with the names of some of Hussein's key henchmen, then leak the existance of those accounts.

Step Eight: Rinse and repeat as needed.

This would have served Hussein to actually engage in his favorite games of brinksmanship and to engage the U.N. and the international scene and otherwise to get under his skin.
Then with the bounties and the framing accounts for the henchmen, he gets even more paranoid and engages in one of his other favorite past times, purging his inner circles.
Hussien becomes even more dangerous to work for and this should have served for real conspiracies against him to develope. Mean while he is "over-engaged" domesticly and internationaly and thus is even more reliant on those around him who he now has more reason to mistrust.

...rinse and repeat..... I'd lay good money down that it would have worked...
 
Well, Saddam shot himself in the foot, metaphorically, with all his ----ing around over weapons inspections. If he truly had nothing to hide, he should have just let the guys come through, as required. Instead, he wanted to play silly buggers and cancel weapons inspections halfway through, etc, and gave the impression he was sporting a bigger package than he really was... which all lead directly into the justifcation for war.

Had he not tried to play silly buggers, the US would have found it a lot harder to have justified invasion, and he would have lived to fight another day. Not only that, but the world's resources could have stayed focused on real trouble areas like Afghanistan and the hunt for Bin Laden in Pakistan and less people would have died in the process, period.
 
I was under the impression that things like this were what the off-topic category was for? If the forum were for only gaming info there shouldn't be an off-topic section... Besides, I think this has been a remarkably civil political discussion. Would that political discussions elsewhere be conducted in as (relatively) polite a fashion as this one.
 
Gate said:
I was under the impression that things like this were what the off-topic category was for? If the forum were for only gaming info there shouldn't be an off-topic section... Besides, I think this has been a remarkably civil political discussion. Would that political discussions elsewhere be conducted in as (relatively) polite a fashion as this one.
Indeed, I thought as much too.

But if politics is off-topic for the off-topic forum, I will happily adhere to that.
 
Ya I think Jar's coming from in the past there have been heated debates on politics, religion and other controversial subjects. Jar was just stating the convo wasn't for him I think is all.

Its all good I love politics...well not really cause there all backstabbing money hungry people but still.
 
Alrighty. I love political discussions (not arguments) so I wanted to be clear on their status here. Thank you.
 
I like debates and actually hearing all sides. As heartless as they can be. ;)
Just I also thought we were a community more so than a gaming forum. This from a red lettered one.. Another expectation deflated.
 
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