A Question of 'Builds'

[Thaos Nightwind]

I'm curious.

I've never gotten into this whole 'Best Build' concept. Apparently games have allowed this before and then nerfs assured that all skills and combinations thereof would be 'balanced' with other professions.

Although i'm not experienced in this area i'm not sure if the question of character 'Builds' can apply to HJ.

Can someone explain how a 'Build' works and whether or not with the variety of Wry combinations and other character altering game experiences in HJ would the notion of a particular 'Build' even be applicable with this forth coming game? 'Cause it just doesn't sound like it would be to me.

 

[Daax]

I think builds can apply to HJ, but unlike other games there won't be "use this build, or you will suck."

It is said that their are literally so many abilities, no one person could possibly ever hope to get them all. It is also said your characters progression into abilities will be affected by your playstyle and every single choice you make in the game. The next factor, that I think will play a part in a build, would be the wyr you have.

So lets say for a moment you are a Wizard/Necromancer. You've found out that you really have a liking to fire-based spells and you like to add a little plague or disease on your enemies to make it hurt a little more when you set them ablaze. Without even realizing it, you began to slowly gain more fire spells and a few more disease and plague type spells. You found wyr that helped modify those spells and make them stronger. Boom! Your fire/plague build.

This is only speculation of course till we know more about the game.

I know. Who would expect me to give a valid responce and not just my normal gargling.

 

[Oxlar]

Well builds become very important in games that have PVP elements to them. I believe HJ will have some PVP elements so I would expect 'best build' templates to exist. However, if the game focuses on PVE and doesn't do that horrible juggling act known as 'class balancing' then more fun will be had. I hate how the majority of a game is focused on PVE and then everything gets changed to the class fundamentals because of some minor PVP elements in the game.

 

[Thaos Nightwind]

I think builds can apply to HJ, but unlike other games there won't be "use this build, or you will suck."

It is said that their are literally so many abilities, no one person could possibly ever hope to get them all. It is also said your characters progression into abilities will be affected by your playstyle and every single choice you make in the game. The next factor, that I think will play a part in a build, would be the wyr you have.

So lets say for a moment you are a Wizard/Necromancer. You've found out that you really have a liking to fire-based spells and you like to add a little plague or disease on your enemies to make it hurt a little more when you set them ablaze. Without even realizing it, you began to slowly gain more fire spells and a few more disease and plague type spells. You found wyr that helped modify those spells and make them stronger. Boom! Your fire/plague build.

This is only speculation of course till we know more about the game.

I know. Who would expect me to give a valid responce and not just my normal gargling.

*Ponders reply*

Okay so who are you and what have you done with Daax?

 

[Thaos Nightwind]

Well builds become very important in games that have PVP elements to them. I believe HJ will have some PVP elements so I would expect 'best build' templates to exist.

Well see thats just it. Now taking Daax's rather well thought out idea into consideration there has to then be 'Tactis' involved in PvP moreso than just 'build' aspects. So I think the notion of 'Best PvP build' doesn't apply owing to that.

 

[frostydf2]

Wow Daax, that was honeslty the best input on a topic I have ever seen written by you. Are you sure this is the Daax we all know, and kinda love?

Anyways, in most games that I have played their have always been better builds then others, with some slight variation. Thus, you get the output for the same, bland, looking characters constantly. So in essence, if you see a character, and see one skill, bam, you know his gear, level, attributes, etc.

I believe that HJ is trying to steer clear of an 'uber build'. Of course their will be builds, and their will be better builds than others. That is the nature of the game, if you tottally destroy how your chatracter works when it comes to skills/attributes/stats/etc, then you shouldn't have as good of a character. Whereas if someone spends time figuring out each stat point, each skill placement, each Wyr combination to better his character, then he should have a better 'build' then the other. However, I beleive that their will not be an 'uber build' as in most other games such as WoW, DaoC, Diablo 2, etc...

 

[Chrisidon]

For the most part, uber builds will be possible - but not necessarily desirable. You could build a gearknight/warrior to be the absolute best tank, but you now have a character with less damage output than most and no ability to heal or magically enhance themselves. Compare this to the other side of the coin, a healer/cleric or cleric/healer who can support like nobody's business but have limited ability to take a hit or do damage. These types will be desired by 'uber guilds' but not by the general roleplaying populace; being too specialized leads to dependency and dependency leads to breaking immersion trying to have it satisfied.

The concept of uber build could be expanded to include groups. Probably for another topic (and I don't wanna start it).

 

[Kuzzle]

Ok, well... I've never really went for the "uber builds", so this is all just speculation. I mean, I was a Rad/Rad Defender in CoH. Not exactly an uber character.

Ok, so, how I think it'll work is... Uhh, I think there will be builds that are better at certain things, but I don't think that'll make them an "Uber Build". I mean, a Tog Warrior/Gearknight would probably your best "Wall o' Ouch" build, depending on how you statted(word?) them out, but that's not to say that a Suwari Warrior/Rogue wouldn't be just as effective. Thing is, you'd just have to use different tactics.

So, yeah, some builds would be better with some tactics, but I'd like to think that there won't be too much of a difference in terms of effectiveness.

On a side note, I really like how Daax described it. I mean, damn, what the hell happened? Seriously, though, nice job. Going with your model, Daax, really makes me think...

 

[Thaos Nightwind]

For the most part, uber builds will be possible - but not necessarily desirable. You could build a gearknight/warrior to be the absolute best tank, but you now have a character with less damage output than most and no ability to heal or magically enhance themselves. Compare this to the other side of the coin, a healer/cleric or cleric/healer who can support like nobody's business but have limited ability to take a hit or do damage. These types will be desired by 'uber guilds' but not by the general roleplaying populace; being too specialized leads to dependency and dependency leads to breaking immersion trying to have it satisfied.

The concept of uber build could be expanded to include groups. Probably for another topic (and I don't wanna start it).

Interesting.

If people are able to take those routes then there are some serious limitations imho:

1-Your 'uberness' can't, or doesn't seem as if it will be able to solo very well.

2-It seems that you'd be pretty much restricted to when you 'uber' guildies were all together to form the perfect 'uber group'.

3-You'd have to have an alternate character that was somewhat for 'normally' enjoying the game. It would interupt you everytime your guild came online in the required fashion to take advantage of that 'uber' alt.

I wouldn't be bothered with dat. It would take away enjoying the game for me.

 

[Daax]

:3

 

[Luciro]

I've always played against the builds at the moment and tried to make what I liked work. That's something Shadowbane, a skill building game, showed can work. Sure you had your folks build up to the standard of their class' strengths and weaknesses. But there was always ways to play around with the skills and make something great according to your play style.
So what if you went more strength than most folks and gave up a bunch of health for a bit more DPS? Sure you won't last as long as other barbarian players, but what kind of impact could it make?
What if as a thief you went speed and dodge over the actual ability to hide? Then you used all the extra points to up your melee? Suddenly you're setting build standards.
I'm hoping your actual class / dual class in HJ isn't quite as form fitting as the BS EQ2 and WoW tossed at us with the only option to build being selected alternate advances. In which case in PvP if you don't build a certain way you'll get trash talked by 1337 fools.
Builds are this.. Taking advantage of the game's 'usually current and subject to nerfing' system to strengthen a class or race to optimal, albeit standard, function.
If HJ doesn't focus on class balance, or in most games making sure everyone has about the same survival rate, then you'll see that class builds will make and break people. OR, ideally, you'll stat yourself and grow to your play style for the selected class you're playing.
Example being.. It may be possible in HJ to make rogues just completely undetectable when in PvP if folks follow the same route of growth. Folks will share the info and suddenly everyone will follow the same route, be it they have to find certain wyr, or spend a certain number of hero points to gain the same strength in the skill as first discovered. Can this be completely fixed? Not really. Best case, HJ will make it so bandit rogues will be just as fun as sneaky rogues.
Builds will happen, but the best thing a game company can do is not really worry so much about class balance. As much as class function. Give everyone a strength and let the player run with it. So the more options the better.

 

[French Kiss]

I'm kinda bummed that there is no Druid class yet...*Sighs* But I'm definatly doing wizard/something....not sure what though. SO many possibilities!

 

[Daax]

It's been said somewhere in the forums that Druid is a Ranger/Healer.

 

[French Kiss]

Really...? Hmmm...this could be good. *Nods*

 

[Trillian_CinVin]

I get plenty of this "use this build or die" mentality in WoW. My druid is a balance/feral druid. There are people who cringe and go spare when I even say that. Why? Because no one has ever done it before and got it to work. Because it takes skill - but then we're talking about a game which has addons to more or less run your character for you...challenge, schmallenge.

If there is such a thing as build, I'll go with what suits my character. If this doesn't make me invincible, then fine - but that's when wandering around, roleplaying my guts out and getting rewards for it makes up for what my build may "lack"

 

[Kuzzle]

Yes, well... Bah! The forums are going so slow! I must type something that won't just be spam.

Ok, well... See, I think Wyr are going to be nearly as important to a "build" as as class or race. In that, while no Wyr will make a build, no build will be complete without them. I seriously hope that it doesn't get out of hand. I mean, I don't support "uber builds", or whatever, but I'm sure there are plenty of people who do, and who'll be rather elitist about it.

The one upside I see to that is: While the prices for "1337" Wyr will most likely skyrocket, the prices for the lesser, more unique, and, in my opinion, more interesting Wyr will likely be kept fairly low. I mean, that's just speculation, but... Ehh. Works for me.

 

[Luciro]

I can see that. Folks sharing base builds and then sharing well if you wyr and slot this and this here you can be help strengthen this weakness blah blah. Or, the game can really bog the hell down if builds become wyr focused. Meaning instead of camping an uber sword spawn, quite possibly we could for just a wyr. Stepping right into the same ol' but using modified terms.

 

[HJ-Navarre]

21/8/22 (My WoW Rogue Assassin/backstabbing build of uber leetness.) :rolleyes2:

I predict we won't see the same character build comparisons we see in WoW and elsewhere. I think with wyr and skill based learning, 2 identical level Gearknight/Wizards will still be very different characters. Let's hope, anyway.

We also have the potential for completely non-combat class leveling (Healer, Cleric, Bard ? ). Most of the 'perfect build' thinking comes from combat-centric power players.

 

[Daax]

well, I'm all about combat. But it's funny. In alot of the games today, the healer type class always ends up destroying us "combat" classes in PVP. Or at least in 1 on 1. Anybody ever tried to fight a White Mage head on in Ballista in FFXI? Prepare to hit for alot of 0's.

 

[Evran]

We also have the potential for completely non-combat class leveling (Healer, Cleric, Bard ? ). Most of the 'perfect build' thinking comes from combat-centric power players.

This is my true hope for HJ. The thing I love about DR is that I play a bard who is equally useful and fun to play both inside and outside of combat. Put meaningful non-combat skills in, and you've just sold me on a game.

The build concept is directly related to numbers. Give people oodles of numbers and they will find ways to min/max them, i.e. builds. Hiding the numbers completely will alleviate this to a degree, but people will still find ways to determine what the numbers are (even if only relatively) and once again will lead to min/maxing and builds. Also, its not necesarily directly related to combat, but since the vast majority of MMOs use combat as the basis for everything in the game, it certainly seems like combat itself is the culprit.

My take on it all is to let the people who like that sort of thing do it, and the rest of us can just enjoy playing so called oddball characters. Just don't look down on us oddballs all you build people. FFXI was terrible for this. So many people in that game were so close minded about job combos it made me stop playing.