I don't think that dual wielding has to necessarily equal more wyr. What if a one handed weapon only has 3 slots for wyr and a two handed weapon has 6? Now if you dual wield then you have the same amount as someone who uses a 2-hander and if you use a one hander and shield then the shield could have 3 wyr slots to balance things out too. Thats one way to do it anyway. I don't know how Simultronics intends to balance it but I'm sure they'll come up with something ingenius.
If dual wield had all those advantages folks mention, then no one would do anything but dual wield. No on in Earth history would have done anything but dual wield. And we know this isn't the case.
So something is missing, which is the factor that dual wielding is probably very hard to learn, and hard to put into practice. In other words, dual wield attacks should have a "chance to hit" penalty. Or in a skill-based game, they should require more attention/investment to learn. And it the penalty should not be insignificant.
I would personally prefer that over having weapons limited to "this one is dual wield, so we'll give it half the wyr slots". (I always prefer mechanics that mimic the Real World, where possible.)
So something is missing, which is the factor that dual wielding is probably very hard to learn, and hard to put into practice. In other words, dual wield attacks should have a "chance to hit" penalty. Or in a skill-based game, they should require more attention/investment to learn. And it the penalty should not be insignificant.
I would personally prefer that over having weapons limited to "this one is dual wield, so we'll give it half the wyr slots". (I always prefer mechanics that mimic the Real World, where possible.)
I agree with everything you just said Foxeye. Artificial limits that don't make sense should be avoided whenever possible. In my earlier post I was simply responding to people who were saying that dual wielders will be able to use more wyr than people who don't dual wield.
I wasn't suggesting that dual wield weapons should have fewer wyr slots to balance out their superior dps or any of the other advantages mentioned in earlier posts. I was just specifically talking about how to prevent dual wielders from being able to use more wyr than people who use two handed weapons.
Doesn't it sort of make sense that a bigger two handed weapon would have more room for wyr slots than a smaller dual wield weapon? Anyway, even if that doesn't make sense, it was just something off the top of my head. Like I said, I'm sure Simultronics will come up with something better.
I wasn't suggesting that dual wield weapons should have fewer wyr slots to balance out their superior dps or any of the other advantages mentioned in earlier posts. I was just specifically talking about how to prevent dual wielders from being able to use more wyr than people who use two handed weapons.
Doesn't it sort of make sense that a bigger two handed weapon would have more room for wyr slots than a smaller dual wield weapon? Anyway, even if that doesn't make sense, it was just something off the top of my head. Like I said, I'm sure Simultronics will come up with something better.
Are Wyr, err, physical doo-dads? I've missed that part of the explanation...of whether they are physical or pure enchantments. If they are physical, then I can see how bigger weapons would allow for more.
But I imagine there are also limitations intrinsic to the "quality" of a weapon.
I really need to read up on the information provided so far.
I'm behind.
But I imagine there are also limitations intrinsic to the "quality" of a weapon.
I really need to read up on the information provided so far.
I'm behind.I was under the impression that they were physical items that were found and inserted in to equipment (kinda like FFVII's materia). Now you have me doubting myself though.
I guess I should read up some more too. I just wish there was more information out there!
BTW, I like the idea of having the quality of the weapon also play a role in how much wyr can be added to it. A master craftsmen should be able to squeeze more wyr slots on to a dagger.
I guess I should read up some more too. I just wish there was more information out there!
BTW, I like the idea of having the quality of the weapon also play a role in how much wyr can be added to it. A master craftsmen should be able to squeeze more wyr slots on to a dagger.
I am reasonably (68%+) certain they are not truly physical, since developers have mentioned at several stages that wyrs can be applied to spells and character abilities as well as equipment.
Dual wielding has advantages and disadvantages in real life too. One, as Fox mentioned is that it is quite rather difficult to learn. Another is that it is rare to be attacking with both weapons simultaneously. Most of the time in armed combat the second weapon would be used largely for blocking, with the advantage over a shield being added flexibility, and the downside of course being not using a chunky piece of wood/metal to protect a substantial area of your body.
The problem stems from the transition to fantasy combat. A two-handed weapon does considerably more damage, and the probability of a lethal/crippling blow upon clean impact is huge, whereas with two weapons the wound may not be decisive.
A second weapon of any considerable size (think Drizzt... you probably are from the topic title anyway) actually inhibits your movements, precluding you from using your off-hand for balance (ever watch fencers?).
Dual wielding is a tricksy subject. The closest parallel I can draw to this is from the Knights of the Old Republic games (since they had crystals, which are somewhat like wyr), which faced up to the problem on two levels:
I - It penalized dual-wielding, offering feats to take it up to "base" level of proficiency
II - It provided feats for fighting with a single weapon, which elevated you above "base" level of proficiency
The problem with the analogy is that there was no option to use shields or two-handed weapons (that would be one GIANT glowstick...).
I have a cautious kind of confidence in the HJ crew to address this issue in an equitable fashion.
Morneblade
Cadet
I think that his is a pretty good way to work it, as far as Wyr goes. The only problem I see in this is if someone wants to go with a 1hander and no shield. I was thinking that this would be the best way to balance out the Wyr part, but then there are other things we don't know about (DPS, weapon speed, # of attacks, how attack rounds are handled, ect.).
I like some of the suggestions, such as there being a offhand penalty to hit (dex modifier), difficulty to learn, less damage per attack (but getting more consistent damage over time) and not having some of the effects you culd get with a 2hander, or going sword and shield (shield slam, ect.).
deathmetal
Cadet
Wouldn't shields have Wyr slots also though?
I hope my hero's socks get Wyr slots +2 Foot Odor!
<leans back and relaxes while his feet take on a sword without any attached Wyr>
I guess I'll stink at HJ judging from this topic, or many topics. I just don't see the fun in tweaking a character using mathematics and statistics analysis to gauge what Wyr will work with which weapon that contains so many slots. I've no intention of demeaning folks here, but I don't see the fun in the need to find which weapon does the most dmg and why duel wielded swords should be better/worse than another weapon of choice.
I'm happy Simu's making it so it doesn't matter... your hero can have any weapon of choice (though I'm curious just what is allowed to be a weapon?). The numbers and statistics people try to obtain to find the best possible combinations of things, in any game, baffles me... RP folks, who cares about %dmg? hehehehe. j/k.
<Continues to enjoy the topic of duel wielding as various aspects of it fly over his head, and nods in agreement until he's so baffled he goes looking for a fishing pole to use as a weapon.>
~ Jaraeth
+2 Foot Odor!<leans back and relaxes while his feet take on a sword without any attached Wyr>
I guess I'll stink at HJ judging from this topic, or many topics. I just don't see the fun in tweaking a character using mathematics and statistics analysis to gauge what Wyr will work with which weapon that contains so many slots. I've no intention of demeaning folks here, but I don't see the fun in the need to find which weapon does the most dmg and why duel wielded swords should be better/worse than another weapon of choice.
I'm happy Simu's making it so it doesn't matter... your hero can have any weapon of choice (though I'm curious just what is allowed to be a weapon?). The numbers and statistics people try to obtain to find the best possible combinations of things, in any game, baffles me... RP folks, who cares about %dmg? hehehehe. j/k.
<Continues to enjoy the topic of duel wielding as various aspects of it fly over his head, and nods in agreement until he's so baffled he goes looking for a fishing pole to use as a weapon.>
~ Jaraeth
Morneblade
Cadet
LOL!Originally posted by Jaraeth@May 23 2006, 01:55 AM
I hope my hero's socks get Wyr slots
<leans back and relaxes while his feet take on a sword without any attached Wyr>
I guess I'll stink at HJ judging from this topic, or many topics. I just don't see the fun in tweaking a character using mathematics and statistics analysis to gauge what Wyr will work with which weapon that contains so many slots. I've no intention of demeaning folks here, but I don't see the fun in the need to find which weapon does the most dmg and why duel wielded swords should be better/worse than another weapon of choice.
I'm happy Simu's making it so it doesn't matter... your hero can have any weapon of choice (though I'm curious just what is allowed to be a weapon?). The numbers and statistics people try to obtain to find the best possible combinations of things, in any game, baffles me... RP folks, who cares about %dmg? hehehehe. j/k.
<Continues to enjoy the topic of duel wielding as various aspects of it fly over his head, and nods in agreement until he's so baffled he goes looking for a fishing pole to use as a weapon.>
~ Jaraeth
I am reasonably (68%+) certain they are not truly physical, since developers have mentioned at several stages that wyrs can be applied to spells and character abilities as well as equipment. [/b][/quote]
This is from the wyr section of the E3 Press Kit:
>What Are Wyr?
The terrible Arcanum-Gearsmith Wars shattered more than the world of Elanthia's geography. When the world trembled and cracked, the artifacts of Elanthia's heroes -- magical items of great power, masterworks of technical cunning, and even items imbued with the very spirit of their owners -- also fractured under the stress. Over time, as scavengers and tomb raiders have done their work, the remnants of these powerful objects have become scattered across the landscape. Called Wyr by the Triumvirate, reclaiming them has proven to be a difficult task.
The Bards and the Lorethew have spent decades cataloguing and tracking the various Wyr that have been discovered, but to this day no one knows just how many unknown Wyr are lurking out there. Scrying and oracles have proven ineffective at getting a hard number. The best the Triumvirate can do is keep good notes, and hope that their agents get to the Wyr before their enemies do.
----
That's what leads me to believe that wyr will be physical objects, similar to Materia from FFVII. It sounds like wyr are literally broken pieces of magical items that were destroyed in the Arcanum-Gearsmith Wars. You guys had me doubting myself so I had to look it up.
When you talk about wyr being applied to spells or character abilities crisisfox I think you may be getting them confused with Hero Points. I believe you'll be able to earn Hero Points that you can apply directly (and permanently) to your character's abilities and attributes. Either that or I just missed the article(s) you're referring to.
EDIT: A link to the article: http://www.stratics.com/content/portals/hj.../060510_wyr.php
Cobalt Katze
Cadet
This may be my inner FF-nerd speaking, but I'm definately liking this concept :lol: All references aside, it's a very cool system that has a ton of potential. Can't wait to see what kinds of ancient goodies will be included.Originally posted by Korama@May 23 2006, 06:11 PM
That's what leads me to believe that wyr will be physical objects, similar to Materia from FFVII. It sounds like wyr are literally broken pieces of magical items that were destroyed in the Arcanum-Gearsmith Wars. You guys had me doubting myself so I had to look it up.
One thing I will definitely agree with you is that I am now quite thoroughly confused.
Here is the quote from the article I am referring to (which is actually the article you are referring to):
It does go on to state that wyr slots can be modified and upgraded using Hero Points, but it still states that wyr can be applied to abilities.... And I am not entirely certain as to which hole of my character's ability to raise undead I could possibly stuff a physical wyr into...
LOL, we will get to the bottom of this!Originally posted by crisisfox@May 23 2006, 02:55 PM
One thing I will definitely agree with you is that I am now quite thoroughly confused.
It does go on to state that wyr slots can be modified and upgraded using Hero Points, but it still states that wyr can be applied to abilities.... And I am not entirely certain as to which hole of my character's ability to raise undead I could possibly stuff a physical wyr into...
My understanding of the quote that you posted, although it's unstated and is merely my interpetation, is that Wyr applied to your equipment can alter your abilities. I still believe however that it has to be physically inserted in to your gear. That's just the way I read it though, I might be totally wrong. It is a bit unclear.
Sisca
Cadet
One thing I will definitely agree with you is that I am now quite thoroughly confused.
Here is the quote from the article I am referring to (which is actually the article you are referring to):
It does go on to state that wyr slots can be modified and upgraded using Hero Points, but it still states that wyr can be applied to abilities.... And I am not entirely certain as to which hole of my character's ability to raise undead I could possibly stuff a physical wyr into...
[/b][/quote]How about if you found an item, say the finger bone from some early cleric, that was infused with some of his raise dead ability.
Now you could take that finger and have it woven into the fabric of your glove or you could just take that finger and meditate on it, really study it, and have the power that is inherient in that finger become part of your very being. Finally you could take that finger, hold it in your hand and focus on it while casting your raise dead spell...or maybe just intoning the raise dead spell over and over again so that the power from the finger is infused into that ability itself.
The first is simulated by socketing the wyr into your glove, the second is simulated by socketing it into one of your attributes and the final one is simulated by socketing it into your raise dead ability.
But remember...More fun, less tedium...so we don't want you to have to: put the wyr in your hand, cast raise dead some random number of times until it takes hold. We want you to figure out where that wyr best fits in your view of your character and place it there and then we'll allow you to come up with the story of how it got there.
After all this whole RP thing is a two way street, we give you the world and some ideas for the story but you get to help write your own story.
I don't think the type of weapon you have will really have any pros or cons different from other weapons. If you can wear a loincloth and have the same armor rating in this game as some decked-out looking knight type guy, then what's to say a beer mug can't hit with the same force as a giant sword? It's all in the wyr. That's the difference in all weapons. What wyr you have in them.
