Season 4 Ice 5?!?!?

[aliasnut332]

That was a decent episode...except that it was basically plagarism.

Anyone here ever read the book Cat's Crade by Kurt Vonnegut? Well, it's about this substance called ICE 9 that will freeze a person when it comes into contact with their bodily fluids...as in lips, eyes etc....

5 min. into the episode i went psycho because I swore i had seen this episode before, but then i realized that i had just read the book before.

I hate to be an Alias hater, 'cause it's basically my life, but COME ON!!

Also...this is the second time that Syd has called something "all the rage" this season!

"Quitting is all the rage"
"It seems to be all the rage with evil geniuses these days" (or something like that)

OH WELL...i stilll love the show, and next epi sounds pretty good. and the OC is on tomrrow

 

[jems]

really!! :shocked:

surely if JJ got hte idea from a book he must have asked. did it say anything at the end of the episode or anything???

 

[aliasnut332]

It said nothing!

I was so sad. I couldn't figure out how no one realized that this was taken from a book. Someone on the cast musssttt have noticed!!!

OYY..but next week sure looks like a DANDY!

 

[verdantheart]

The cast? I'm not sure the typical actor is a big Vonnegut reader. But one of the producers or writers should have noticed something . . . of course you never know how something comes in. It could be that it came in on spec and it just happens to be a novel that none of the team has happened to come into contact with. (I'm willing to give them the benefit of the doubt--especially with the legal liabilities these days . . .) Perhaps you should write them and make them aware of their liability.

 

[aliasnut332]

I thought JG's mom was an english teacher

 

[Leslie]

Wow that's reallllly NOT GOOD.

 

[Tiger<O>]

That seems an like an impossible coincidence...Is there any way both could be based on something factual? I can't believe they could have let this get by, through the entire cast and crew of Alias, plus ABC execs, fact checkers and censors.

 

[fadethree]

I am quite positive that this is an intended word play on Vonnegut's allegorical ice-9. They have no legal liability here. I find it an amazing statement about our society that a show makes a literary reference and our first reaction is to be concerned about copyright infringement. The lawyers truly rule our country?

 

[dissolved]

I noticied immediately the Vonnegut reference. It would have been
really cool for one character to ask if it was from a book and
then for Marshall to start his techno-babble about the weapon being
inspired from the book.

But since there was no reference, the writers must have assumed
that the viewers just don't read. Several episodes of MacGuyver
were lifted, almost verbatim, from books.

Just a little let down in an otherwise fantastic show.

 

[unregistered]

Whether it was a refference to this book, inspired by it or a guinue coinsidence it doesn't really matter because a) there are no new ideas and b) it was an allegory for the characters emotional states (theres a great thread over on sd-1.net about this) and as JJ has said its characters that matter this season. This ep was a very good character study. I didn't feel like a typical Alias show and was a little slow but it had depth which I think the show has lacked on occassion. So its inspired by a literary source most TV is!
un

 

[aliasnut332]

I am quite positive that this is an intended word play on Vonnegut's allegorical ice-9.  They have no legal liability here.  I find it an amazing statement about our society that a show makes a literary reference and our first reaction is to be concerned about copyright infringement.  The lawyers truly rule our country?

[post="1170138"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]​

A reference would imply them actually mentionning that the whole idea was stolen from a book. Also, I am not interested in whether they violated a law. I am interested in the fact that a show as wonderful as Alias would actually copy!

I was waiting for that marshall ramble too!

 

[fadethree]

I appreciate the high standards that you place on originality, but I think you're being a bit selective by criticizing Alias for copying in this instance. It's not as if Alias stole the plot line from Cat's Cradle, after all. The idea of something that kills people by freezing was hardly invented by Vonnegut, and I think you'd be hard pressed to defend Alias as a show that has never copied anything until this episode. Pure originality is not a criterion I expect a great show to meet. "There are no new ideas" may be an overstatement, or, at least, irrelevant. It's about combining old ideas in new ways, in new contexts, with good acting and sharp dialogue.

Think of it this way. What if they called it "Agent X?" Would you have even noticed? If I had noticed, I would be less satisfied. I'd much rather they *refer* to Vonnegut's book by calling it "Ice-5." For those of us who have read the book, this *is* giving credit to Vonnegut for the idea (even though Vonnegut's Ice-9 worked in a different way and symbolized something very different).

Unless the plot of the show followed Vonnegut's plotline directly (in which case they'd have a legal and ethical duty to cite him), I would not wish to have the reference spelled out for me (though I'm sure Marshall's delivery would have been amusing). It's like having to explain an inside joke; it takes the fun out of it. I get the reference, I think it's kind of cute and clever, and I'm glad that the writers have given a nod to the viewers who have read the book.

You are, of course, entitled to use the language that you think best described what has happened here. I happen to think that words like "stolen," "plagiarism," and "copied" are far too strong and misconstrue the writers' intents and their legal and ethical responsibilities.

 

[G$f3arl3ssG$]

I wouldn't necessarily call it "stealing," more of "alluding" to Kurt Vonnegut's book. The substance is actually called Ice 9 and they changed the number to Ice 5. By the way, I have the book and the effects of Ice 9 and Ice 5 are very different. Ice 9 actually freezes the person to such an incredible degree that they become hard solid and do not shatter like the effects of Ice 5. In the book, anything that comes into contact with a person or thing that has just been affected with Ice 9 also immediately freezes. So if they stole the idea, poor little Vaughn will be a popsicle right now...not that I wouldn't like that to happen

 

[boyscout4747]

I agree with the others that think that this isn't plagarism. OK some virus freezes people. WOW that's copying off a book where a virus froze people. AND OMG they called the virus that freezes something ICE! How could they do that if they weren't referring it to a book!

I mean seriously, it's like saying Lost copies off of Jurassic Park because there's some monster that's killing people and it's set in a jungle.

 

[aliasnut332]

i guess we could agree to disagree. Maybe I dont read enough, so when i actually catch a reference it makes me angry

I thoguht that it was identical to ICE-9 from the book. I remember Ice 9 killing people when it touched water or liquids from their bodies, not their skin. (like in alias)

oohhh welll.

 

[lovinsark]

Yeah, the "all the rage" thing seemed redundant to me too. Sydney is way too intelligent to use the same cliche more than once. (However, in Season 1 she did say "I should go," "You should go" or "We should go" about 100 times).

 

[G$f3arl3ssG$]

I thoguht that it was identical to ICE-9 from the book.  I remember Ice 9 killing people when it touched water or liquids from their bodies, not their skin. (like in alias)

oohhh welll.

[post="1172982"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]​

I also remember something like that. Well, our bodies are made of 70% water so I guess in any way, shape, or form that could happen. I read the book 2 years ago and it's collecting dust on my shelf. Who knows, I might be wrong. All I remember was that the Ice 9 was kept in a thermos and then made into a necklace or something and some person ate it and there was a burial in the sea; the corspe hit the ocean and then everything froze.

But I digress. Even still, the Ice 5 in Alias was intended only for humans it seemed. Otherwise when that guy sprayed the stuff out from the canister, it would have crystallized the moisture in the air and everything would have gone to hell. Theoretically speaking, of course. Not to mention he would have inhaled the gaseous form of it and it would have carried into his internal organs, yada yada yada.

 

[dissolved]

Unless the plot of the show followed Vonnegut's plotline directly (in which case they'd have a legal and ethical duty to cite him), I would not wish to have the reference spelled out for me (though I'm sure Marshall's delivery would have been amusing).  It's like having to explain an inside joke; it takes the fun out of it.  I get the reference, I think it's kind of cute and clever, and I'm glad that the writers have given a nod to the viewers who have read the book.

[post="1172049"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]​

If you don't want the techno-babble explanation version, the writers could
have tossed in a couple other Vonnegut references that only his readers
would get. Marshall could be playing with some string while waiting for
the computer to finish. Dixion asks what he's doing. "Oh, just building a
Cat's Craddle". Or some charater is seen eating some food and Marshall says,
"Yep. Breakfast of Champions." The Vonnegut readers would have been howling
and the non-Vonnegut readers wouldn't have noticed anyway.

The problem with the episode was a single item being referenced. That leaves
me with two explanations:

1) The writers are giving a nod to Vonnegut. I personally discount this for:
2) The writers borrowed an idea and don't expect the audience to notice or care.

It's hardly plagarism - but they could have tweaked the show just a little to
make the idea lifting enjoyable.

Regardless, I still love the show.

 

[anver]

You'd think if they had borrowed the name of it so closely the writers could have made themselves sound smarter by simply having a character refer directly to the book.

I've noticed a few direct rip-offs of scenes from movies (Marathon Man, From Russia with Love...) this season already. In a way, that is even less excusable, because the writers don't have to expect anyone to pick up on it, so it's less of an intelligent "joke" that would be widely recognized and more of a work saving device for the writers.

 

[Tiger<O>]

You'd think if they had borrowed the name of it so closely the writers could have made themselves sound smarter by simply having a character refer directly to the book.

  I've noticed a few direct rip-offs of scenes from movies (Marathon Man, From Russia with Love...) this season already.  In a way, that is even less excusable, because the writers don't have to expect anyone to pick up on it, so it's less of an intelligent "joke" that would be widely recognized and more of a work saving device for the writers.

[post="1176320"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]​

What's the From Russia with Love rip-off? the train fight?