Season 4 The problem at hand

[CaptSpaulding]

Wow, verdantheart as usual, you gave me a lot to think about, but this time, I see we have very different takes on what's going on. You have such great insight, you are probably right and I'm probably wrong, but I'll state my case just the same.

First things first; I don't think there's anyway Nadia tries to kill Jack once she knows the truth, at least I would have said that confidently before Jack gave her the fake evidence on Bishop. And let me tie it in with this.....why Syd was so eager to tell Nadia about Jack. I think it was to prevent any chance that Nadia would go after Jack. I see Syd telling Nadia every positive thing she can about her mom, but also telling her (reminding her?) of all the bad things. Including how she betrayed Jack and the U.S., how she shot Sydney, how she messed with her mind in S2. And then, "oh yeah Nadia, btw, our beloved mother put out a hit on yours truly. So my father did the only thing he could do to save my life, he killed his wife, who I think he still loved, in his own impossible to comprehend way. He killed our mother to save my life. I may never forgive him for killing mom, but he saved my life. He did it to protect me." Well, the dialog would be better written than that but that's the gist of it.

You see, by telling Nadia, she can gauge her reaction and control the situation. If Nadia accepts it, fine. But if Nadia indicates that it doesn't matter to her why Jack did it, then she has some time and the ability to try to fix things. If Syd doesn't tell her and put the best possible light on it, Nadia may react before anything can be done to stop it. This way, she buys time if nothing else. What if Nadia says she's okay with it but is lying? Syd's a superspy, she should be able to see through that. She can work with Jack....possibly even Sloane....to try to calm the situation until she can somehow solve the problem. Or am I giving Syd too much credit?

And I thought that on the plane ride to Spain, Jack should have just told Nadia the truth himself. Explained who Irina was, and tell her that he had to save Syd. I guess my problem is that I find it hard to accept the whole "I will kill the murderer of my mother" threat from Nadia. Why would she react like that about a mother she never knew. At the beginning of S4, she was retired, if her mother was so important to her why wasn't she searching the globe to find her?

I'm not saying that she shouldn't be upset to hear about dear ol' mom, just that her reaction seems too strong. I mean, she finally found her father (vice versa, really) and look what a disappointment he turned out to be. Wouldn't she fear her mother would also be no bargain? Especially with what she already knew? I just think that once she found out the truth, with the proper explanation, yes, there might be some tension between the two, but I think she'd renounce her pledge to kill Irina's killer.

If Nadia actually did kill Jack, I think that it would devastate Syd. Especially if Syd was the one who told Nadia about Jack, but she would be devastated to lose Jack under any circumstances. Yes, she frequently "hates" Jack. But she still loves him very much. Remember even back in S1, before they had had any kind of bond at all, and with Syd thinking that Jack had actually sold intel to the KGB, she still risked everything to save his life. Now that they truly have a connection, flawed tho it may be (how could it be otherwise with a man like Jack?), she'd be a basket-case if this happened. She'd never be close to Nadia, ever, but I don't think she'd kill Sloane, though, as some have suggested. That's not her style. Two wrongs don't make a right and all.

And if Nadia did try to kill Jack? He's Jack Bristow, and Jack Bristow would find a way to save himself and not kill Nadia. No relatively green agent is going to kill Jack Birstow. And I don't see Jack as wanting to die as long as he thinks his little baby girl needs his protection. But Jack & Nadia's relationship would never be very good after that, to say the least!

I can even accept your explanation for why Syd didn't leave Bishop's house when she had the chance. If she was trying to kill Jack in effigy, it was on a subconscious level, she would never want to see Jack dead. Even if she hadn't learned the reason for Jack's actions regarding Irina, she wouldn't want Jack dead. Remember last season when she didn't want Sloane executed for the wrong reasons? She wouldn't want her dad killed for any reason, even during the moments when she hates him the most.

Of course, we don't know Nadia real well, so I may be way off here, I admit. And afterall, she is the daughter of Sloane and Irina. Not exactly great genes to produce nice, rational, understanding, forgiving children! But still......

If I'm all wrong in my readings of Syd & Jack, perhaps it's because of what I want, not so much what is logical.....I want to like both Syd and Jack. Is that possible?

Speaking of which, I do wish Syd would stop with the snarky comments towards Sloane. We know she has every reason to hate the man. Fine. And we know she was duped into joining APO. But as far as I can tell, no one's holding a gun to her head to keep her there. It's her current decision to work with the guy. Lay off the nastiness. And you know, if she makes nice with Sloane, maybe he'll let his guard down just a little and it will be easier for her to catch him when he invariable does something really, really evil.

I think Jack knows exactly why Irina put the hit on Syd, and as you felt with the Bishop switch, he's buying time until he can best deal with the ramifications of it.

But my question is, why isn't Syd more curious? At this point, shouldn't she be obsessed with finding out the reason? The Syd I know from the first three years of Alias would be. Why not get over her mad-on for Jack and ask him to work with her to find out? How about swallowing hard and going to Sloane and asking what he knews? After all, he worked with Irina quite a bit. If he doesn't know anything, he might be able to use his contacts to find out (this is from Syd's perspective, I agree with the spec that Sloane probably does know what really happened and why). And finally, why not pay Sark a visit in the pokey? Sark was a one time employee of Irina. He was a partner and lover of Lauren, who led Syd to the documents that revealed Irina's assassination. Surely he knows something. Surely there is something short of his freedom that Sark would want in exchange for information, no? A creature comfort of some kind? (Actually the term "conjugal visit" comes to mind but I don't see them going there). Hey it's worth a shot. I can't believe Syd isn't obsessed by this.

 

[Alias_Gay]

gotta print this to read and then I will reply

 

[Azalea]

And I don't see Jack as wanting to die as long as he thinks his little baby girl needs his protection. 

I'd give anything to see Syd's reaction if Jack were to refer to her as his "little baby girl." :lol:

But my question is, why isn't Syd more curious?  At this point, shouldn't she be obsessed with finding out the reason?  The Syd I know from the first three years of Alias would be.    Why not get over her mad-on for Jack and ask him to work with her to find out?  How about swallowing hard and going to Sloane and asking what he knews?  After all, he worked with Irina quite a bit.  If he doesn't know anything, he might be able to use his contacts to find out (this is from Syd's perspective, I agree with the spec that Sloane probably does know what really happened and why).  And finally, why not pay Sark a visit in the pokey?  Sark was a one time employee of Irina.  He was a partner and lover of Lauren, who led Syd to the documents that revealed Irina's assassination.  Surely he knows something.  Surely there is something short of his freedom that Sark would want in exchange for information, no?  A creature comfort of some kind?  (Actually the term "conjugal visit" comes to mind but I don't see them going there).  Hey it's worth a shot.  I can't believe Syd isn't obsessed by this.

I agree - It's not like Sydney to not want to dig deeper into this. Is it just because they haven't gotten to it yet? Maybe in the next few episode we'll see her curiosity surface more. If they allow her to just accept the fact of the hit without wanting to know the reason, it would be completely out of character for her. After all, the last words Irina spoke to Sydney were "Good luck sweetheart. I love you." Granted, she had trust issues with her, but I think Sydney truly believed her mother loved her. The fact that she would put a hit out on her must make her want to get to the bottom of it.

 

[Rinda]

OK, I am just going to respond to all of the above posts. Such an interesting discussion! I love it! :lol:

So, do you think that Sydney’s staying with Bishop and going after him was an effort to take Jack out in effigy? Do you think this was conscious or not?

Hmmm… I love this theory – reminds me of university English classes and dissecting novels…however, I am not convinced that it is what was intended. I thought that the point was to bring him in alive so that they could reel in the “bigger fish” –his German masters? Was I mistaken or did someone not yell after her “You get Bishop!”?

I guess I just don’t think of Sydney as being that blood-thirsty, although I understand that part of your theory must hinge upon the idea that her actions were guided by her un-conscious desire to take out her father in effigy, and therefore this desire could have over-ridden her normal moral settings. Perhaps as well, the past few years have taken their toll on her naiveté in terms of killing… I do believe she felt compelled to stay with him, but had not thought through a plan of why or what to do with him.

Why do you think Sydney’s in such a hurry to tell Nadia the truth? Is it spite or respect? Is it that Sydney can’t exact retribution, but Nadia can? (Consider the above question.) Or is it that the truth will come out eventually and “the earlier, the better.” Why? Do you think she has fully considered the consequences of her decision?

No – I don’t think that Sydney is looking for retribution. I think that she knows the suffering she has endured because secrets were kept from her and now finds herself with one of those secrets. Rather than coming to Jack’s understanding about a satisfying lie, she feels compelled to “cleanse” herself of her knowledge, regardless of the consequences for Jack, Nadia or even herself.

I think that this is completely in her character, as her largest flaw has always been following her emotional reaction without considering the consequences, as well as an inability to see beyond herself in some instances. I can practically hear Jack in my mind saying “Think of the consequences Sydney.” (He must have said that in an episode before?) This is so in keeping with that.

And I must say, this is KEY to why I love this show so much. Because our heroine – for all of her admirable and enviable traits – is fallible. And Jack – for all of his moral indiscretions and emotional absence – is wise.

No surface writing here!!! (At least not this season… )

What do you think would have happened if Nadia had learned the truth at this juncture? Would she try to kill Jack?

I am not convinced that Nadia doesn’t already know the truth…or part of the truth. This whole thing obviously has to do with Sloane somehow (hence his baiting of Jack) and something obviously happened between Sloane and Nadia before she “retired”. If you think about it, we have only his word that they had a falling out – she did not reference him when she said that she did not want to return and she does not seem to hold any hard feelings against him…They are somehow all wrapped up in this together, each of them with separate pieces of the puzzle.

However, to focus only on the information and characters we have been given so far, I would think that no, she would not kill Jack, but instead go through all kinds of tears and anguish and yelling, etc.

If Nadia had learned the truth and decided to kill Jack, do you think that he would defend himself? Do you think he would kill Nadia if he had to in order to protect himself?

You bet! Without batting an eyelash.

I have to disagree with this response – contrary to Sydney, Jack tends to think endlessly about consequences. He was instrumental in finding Nadia (and maybe hiding her in the first place?) – he knows she has a key role to play in all of this and would certainly be able to defend himself against her without killing her. And even if she was simply a random agent I don’t think he would kill her if she attacked him.

What do you think Jack was trying to discover during his psychological examination of Nadia?

I think he was trying to see traces of Irina, Sloane, and Sydney in her - seeing who she most resembled, whether she had the most potential for good or for evil, and whether she was vulnerable enough to be malleable in his hands. (She appears to be, but is it an act? I'm not convinced that Nadia believes Bishop killed her mother. Pretending to believe Jack would be a good way to get him off her back for the time being.)

I like this Azalea! I would add that he obviously knows something we don’t and was probably trying to assess what her reaction to that would be.

(If I wanted to get really conspiracy theory here, I could think that maybe he was giving her some kind of information? They were communicating in code? He was brainwashing her? A little extreme – that is what this show does to me after a while!)

I also would not be at all surprised (as I allude to above) if she were playing Jack, and especially playing Sydney! If you think about it, that emotional scene where she swears vengeance on her mother’s killer, and the tear when she kills Bishop – classic Irina tugging at Syd’s heartstrings.

I mentioned this somewhere else as well, but I immediately thought of Irina in the scene where Nadia and Jack are in the plane. The way she looked at him, her smile, the tilt of her head – I felt like I was watching Irina toying with him. Same thing with her cool during her examination. Irina always interacted with Jack kind of like a cat with a mouse, and I was sure I saw shades of that in Nadia.

What do you think about the kind of "out-there" theory that Sydney might have killed Irina when she was Julia Thorne and that that's really why she erased her memories, not because of the cube, and that Katya has been impersonating Irina? And that Jack only recently found out and is trying to keep it from her by taking the blame on himself? But in that case I guess Syd couldn't have found a body in Moscow, because it wouldn't exactly be recognizable by now, would it? 

As you know, I've believed for some time that Katya has been impersonating Irina. As for the rest of the theory, well, I like it! Think of the angst! Sydney descovers that she's been hating her father all this time, when she really should be hating herself . . . in fact, she discovers that he's taken the blame for everything so that she wouldn't have to learn the real reason that she couldn't live with her memories! (How sweet of him!) He could have found the body and disposed of it in such a way (burning) that the date of death could not be determined, yet leave it identifiable (tooth-pulp DNA). . . . Have to think over the timeline, behavior issues.. . .

In fact, this would solve a problem I've posed in an upcoming essay: the stated reasons for Sydney's memory erasure are insufficient. I go into a whole lot of reasons & detail for my thinking, suffice it to say, but unless Sydney has another reason that is incredibly compelling . . . well, let's just say, we're just left with the explanation that the existing solution for the erased memory is so much bad writing. Too bad we have to wait so darn long for this essay to come out . . . we might even have an answer by that time!

I agree, I think this theory has real merit. As I mentioned in the thread where it was introduced, it would make Jack’s comment about “incapacitating” her very true! To quote myself: There definitely has to be more to it than just "She was going to kill you, so I had her killed" to explain away the papers and Jack's reaction. Especially his cryptic little comment to Sloane that the truth "would have incapacitated her" - obviously he knows it would take more than the knowledge that Irina wanted her dead to incapacitate Sydney. She seemed to cope with it pretty well - a few tears, then business as usual....

But finding out that she had been programmed at an early age as a last-ditch assassination machine? By her father? Against her own mother? And that she had actually killed her Mum?

THAT could seriously incapacitate her!!! :blink:

But who sets up the hit (not Jack because then he'd know that Sydney could find out; and why go through a hitman, to cover for Sydney? Or is this a different hit; Lauren perhaps?)?

Maybe I am misunderstanding what ‘hit’ we are talking about here… But Tamazaki only said that Irina Derevko had placed the hit on Sydney. He probably did not meet with her personally. Which opens at least two possibilities:

1) that Katya actually ordered the hit, while she was doing double duty as ISM Irina. In fact perhaps Katya had Sydney take out Irina, and then wanted to get rid of Sydney as well? And that was what Lauren was referring to when she said that at least she knew who controlled her? That they were both Katya flunkies during her missing years?

2) that Jack “ordered” the hit on Sydney under Irina’s name to provide himself with a “reason” to kill Irina that Sydney would buy. (But how would he know that Tamazaki would not get to Sydney first? Unless he and Sloane together set up that first mission to have Sydney hear the news direct from Tamazaki? And that was why he let her go into the tunnel without following her? Knowing that as soon as Tamazaki saw her, he would mention the hit?)

There is definitely a whole realm of potential here! This show is great!

 

[spygal87]

My opinion of Sydney wanting to tell Nadia who killed her mother is for Nadia to know the truth, I think that's all it is. Howeaver, I do not believe that Nadia is completely trusworthy. I think that Sydney wanting to tell Nadia who killed Irena is just an example of Sydney acting out on her emotion's. Sydney wants to bond with her sister, and in reality, her telling Nadia may help Sydney grieve for her mother's death.
I think that Sydney needs to tread lightly. I think the reason that Jack took so long asking Nadia all those questions and the format in which he would ask them was his way of finding out, "Can I really trust Nadia?" I also have formed the opinion that the reason why Jack and Sloane seem to be so buddy buddy lately, is really Jack's way of getting on Sloane's good side. Sloane seemed to be dissapointed that their friendship was a lost cause after Sloane had learned that Jack and Sydney were double agents and that Jack was angry at Sloane for recruiting Sydney at the beginning. I think that Jack is just tring to protect his daughter, and being on good terms with Sloane is a way of getting to know first hand Sloane's motives, which we all know are never good.

 

[ajw48]

I'd give anything to see Syd's reaction if Jack were to refer to her as his "little baby girl." :lol:
I agree - It's not like Sydney to not want to dig deeper into this. Is it just because they haven't gotten to it yet? Maybe in the next few episode we'll see her curiosity surface more.

I totally agree, it's not like Sydney to just accept things. I believe Vaughn even said that at the end of season 1 when Will was kidnapped. Good point!

 

[Alias_Gay]

totally agree here ... when she wanted to know what happened to her during those two missing years, she did it and did not worry what Jack would say ... now, Jack kills Irina, and she just sits there accepting it as the truth ... so, I hope she wakes up and get to find the truth about the killing and the hit on her ...

1) that Katya actually ordered the hit, while she was doing double duty as ISM Irina. In fact perhaps Katya had Sydney take out Irina, and then wanted to get rid of Sydney as well? And that was what Lauren was referring to when she said that at least she knew who controlled her? That they were both Katya flunkies during her missing years?

I like this idead better than the 2nd one ...

 

[verdantheart]

Okay I am in denial, but I asked in the previous article and desiring your keen insight  , I will ask again.  In your opinion is there anyway that Irena did not put a hit on Syd's life.  I can accept that she is gone...it needed to be tied up....but I am sooo struggling w/ the hit.  And I cannot reconcile it with all I watched transpire in season 2.  I keep thinking it was Katya who placed the hit.  But I cannot believe that Jack would make such a huge error as killing the wrong woman.  Though if he did(unimaginable though it seems) that definitley would leave Sydney incapacitated.  Anyway if you have a moment your insights here would be greatly appreciated!  I feel as thought I should sign off as desparately in denial! 

[post="1159819"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]​

It depends. Was it, in fact, Jack who killed her, or is the cover-up theory true? If Jack is covering for Sydney, we have to re-evaluate everything. The time-table definitely changes, but that doesn't mean the hit is off, just that the timing is. I agree, though--Jack would not kill Irina unless he were absolutely sure, so if Jack killed Irina, Irina ordered the hit--no question in my mind. However, maybe he's saving Sydney from the real "awful truth." I don't think that they'd do so terrible a thing to the fans as have Jack make that kind of "horrible mistake" when he's usually so incredibly careful and capable--particularly with the stakes this high! If so, I for one will be a bit disappointed in them.

If we go with the theory that Sydney is the killer, the hit could be part of the cover-up, part of Irina's scheme that led to the killing, a response on Katya's part . . . it could fit into a number of scenarios. My problem with Jack calling it on (as someone suggested) is that Tamazaki abducts Sydney--this is a scenario that Jack should foresee. If he called the hit, then he is basically sending Sydney in to pick up that piece of critical info from Tamazaki--at incredible risk because he knows that Tamazaki never completed his job or picked up his paycheck. Somehow I doubt Jack would want to take this risk--not while putting control of the situation in Tamazaki's hands!

Meanwhile, if Katya ordered the hit, where did it go? Why did it "go away"? And for that matter, why was it called in the first place? Was it for revenge, or what?

So, do you think that Sydney’s staying with Bishop and going after him was an effort to take Jack out in effigy? Do you think this was conscious or not?
I see it as more of a stubborness issue. Sydney simply will not back out of anything, even if she really should. She probably also has a strong need to take out every "bad guy" she sees.

[post="1159833"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]​

Usually she doesn't kill them, though . . . I don't think the shots through the car roof were designed to bring him in for questioning. If one didn't kill him, the resulting crash stood a good chance of rendering him dead or unable to answer any questions. I really do think there was some unconscious re-directed anger there and the foundation was laid by the writers . . . just because Sydney has issues doesn't mean I don't like her or that I don't think she's a good guy. Why can't she be interesting? However, you are more than welcome to disagree.

I think that Sydney is pretending it's out of respect, but her real goal is to sort of "expose" Nadia to the "monstrosity" that is Jack. I think that she's eager to have someone on her side that understands the full pain and impact of the truth, and she wants someone to sympathize with her about her father. I don't think Sydney's really thought about the real significance of this piece of information... I think it's more about Sydney not wanting to bear this "load" by herself.

Good point. Wish I had thought of it . . .

If you had asked me this before the episode, I wouldn't have believed it. But, given her irrational need to beat an already dead horse (not to imply something about Peter O'Meara), I think she might actually do it-- especially now that she's been lied to about it.

We really don't know a lot about Nadia, and that's part of my point. If she's ultra-impulsive, she might well kill Jack. She's claimed that she wants revenge, and she knows little about Jack. Sure, Sydney would probably put the best face possible on it, but would that matter? Maybe, maybe not. We don't know her well enough to predict. On the other hand, is she calculating? Even more interesting. In this case, her "impulsive" act of spectacularly blowing away the bad guy of our current piece is all a presentation--a response to the perfect opportunity that Jack handed her. We have to wait and see if she's an "Irina" or a "Sydney" . . . and we already have one "Sydney"--heh heh heh . . .

Do you think that there is some significance in the difference between Nadia's attitude towards Sloane and Sydney's? Both women have been betrayed and hurt by the man-- How would you justify the difference in their perceptions of the man? Simple writers' prerogatives?

[post="1159967"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]​

Well, for one thing, Nadia knows Sloane to be her father. She has an interest in quashing her anger with Sloane a bit--just as Sydney does with Jack. After all, Sydney has plenty of reason to feel betrayed by Jack, right? But she gives him a lot more leeway than she grants Sloane. Further, (returning to an earlier topic) Nadia might be more calculating than Sydney, perhaps to the point where she would set aside personal feelings unless they assisted her agenda (which would make her Irina-like).

First things first; I don't think there's anyway Nadia tries to kill Jack once she knows the truth, at least I would have said that confidently before Jack gave her the fake evidence on Bishop.  And let me tie it in with this.....why Syd was so eager to tell Nadia about Jack.  I think it was to prevent any chance that Nadia would go after Jack.  I see Syd telling Nadia every positive thing she can about her mom, but also telling her (reminding her?) of all the bad things.  Including how she betrayed Jack and the U.S., how she shot Sydney, how she messed with her mind in S2.  And then, "oh yeah Nadia, btw, our beloved mother put out a hit on yours truly.  So my father did the only thing he could do to save my life, he killed his wife, who I think he still loved, in his own impossible to comprehend way.  He killed our mother to save my life.  I may never forgive him for killing mom, but he saved my life.  He did it to protect me."  Well, the dialog would be better written than that but that's the gist of it.

You see, by telling Nadia, she can gauge her reaction and control the situation.  If Nadia accepts it, fine.  But if Nadia indicates that it doesn't matter to her why Jack did it, then she has some time and the ability to try to fix things.  If Syd doesn't tell her and put the best possible light on it, Nadia may react before anything can be done to stop it.  This way, she buys time if nothing else.  What if Nadia says she's okay with it but is lying?  Syd's a superspy, she should be able to see through that.  She can work with Jack....possibly even Sloane....to try to calm the situation until she can somehow solve the problem.  Or am I giving Syd too much credit?

Maybe that would work, maybe not. As I mentioned above, we don't know Nadia very well yet and can't predict her actions nor evaluate her agenda. We can't identify her as "good" or "bad" guy. And Sydney barely knows her too. That's part of why I asked the question, in fact.

But my question is, why isn't Syd more curious?  At this point, shouldn't she be obsessed with finding out the reason?  The Syd I know from the first three years of Alias would be.    Why not get over her mad-on for Jack and ask him to work with her to find out?  How about swallowing hard and going to Sloane and asking what he knews?  After all, he worked with Irina quite a bit.  If he doesn't know anything, he might be able to use his contacts to find out (this is from Syd's perspective, I agree with the spec that Sloane probably does know what really happened and why).  And finally, why not pay Sark a visit in the pokey?  Sark was a one time employee of Irina.  He was a partner and lover of Lauren, who led Syd to the documents that revealed Irina's assassination.  Surely he knows something.  Surely there is something short of his freedom that Sark would want in exchange for information, no?  A creature comfort of some kind?  (Actually the term "conjugal visit" comes to mind but I don't see them going there).  Hey it's worth a shot.  I can't believe Syd isn't obsessed by this.

[post="1162448"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]​

First, about Sydney being curious. That's a good question because she should be. However, there have been many times when she's dropped things that she should be very curious about--the first thing that comes to mind is her investigation into her father & his activities during the first season. She was hot to "get him," but when she gets a lead, all of a sudden she drops it and leaves it to Vaughn to investigate. Really, the explanation is that she really doesn't want to know. Now, if it turns out that she doesn't follow up on this (and it's only been one episode, so I'm going to wait and see, personally), I'm going to look at it as evidence that, somewhere in Sydney's psyche, she really doesn't want to know--and I may take this as further evidence that Sydney may, in fact, be the killer and have some sort of implanted hinderence to being curious (perhaps part of her memory conditioning).

Yeah, she's going to get over her "mad-on" for Jack within a week and ask him for help. :lol: It's going to take a little longer than that! Since Sydney has officially "quit" the CIA, it might take some doing to visit him. She'd have to work out some sort of under-cover thing and it would either have to go through official channels or they'd have to work out some elaborate scheme . . . that would take a little doing and probably some help. I wonder what Jack's cover story is? Hopefully that he's been kicked upstairs somewhere so that he can get things done within the agency when needed. ^_^

& a few random responses:

1. I only said that Weiss was "the new Will" in the sense that he was the friend who had no idea what was going on in Sydney's life--& now he does. So he's no longer the new Will anyway.

2. Nadia killing Jack is a "what if" scenario. We all know that isn't going to happen. I just want you to stretch your imagination and think about what would happen with the characters in this situation. Do you think Nadia would? Do you think Jack would allow it? If (by some miracle) it did happen, what would the fallout be? I ask "what if" questions all the time--that doesn't mean any of them are going to come true.

3. I can understand the denial regarding Irina's death--she was so darn popular, and for good reason. The fans stated in no uncertain terms that they would accept no substitutes (look at the overwhelming poll results elsewhere on the board), so although I was willing to try out another actress, I'm afraid I was in a tiny minority. (I once saw a popular character resurrected on a soap opera without success, and--heresy--they shot him on Friday but waited until Monday to have him die . . . I never saw someone survive through the weekend before unless he was going to live; I guess they wanted to punish him for not working out. ) For the sake of the series I am fervently hoping that she stays dead. It was bad enough that the writers had to keep this storyline ambiguously open-ended for a year, dragging on unsatisfactorily through IM messages.

Wow, that was lots. Serves me right for being away for a few days!

 

[freakforalias]

Why do you think Sydney’s in such a hurry to tell Nadia the truth? Is it spite or respect? Is it that Sydney can’t exact retribution, but Nadia can? (Consider the above question.) Or is it that the truth will come out eventually and “the earlier, the better.” Why? Do you think she has fully considered the consequences of her decision?

I think it boils down to the fact that Sydney just doesn't want another person in her life that she has to keep secrets from... especially a sister. As far as the consequences of that decision -- no, Sydney has not thought it through. It seems as though she is willing to put alot into a relationship with a sister she knows nothing about.... a sister who's (apparent) father is Sloane -- a man that Sydney has alot of difficulty in trusting.

What do you think would have happened if Nadia had learned the truth at this juncture? Would she try to kill Jack?

If Nadia had learned the truth and decided to kill Jack, do you think that he would defend himself? Do you think he would kill Nadia if he had to in order to protect himself?

Let’s say Nadia did kill Jack. What do you think would happen between Sydney and Nadia? Between Sloane and Nadia?

Boy these are hard to answer because I don't believe the truth is what it appears to be.... because I don't believe it was Jack as the executioner. I believe that Jack may have been "responsible" for setting that plan in motion but I don't think he actually did it. And heck, maybe he isn't even responsible after all -- maybe he is taking the heat for someone else.... because we all know that Jack would do anything for his daughter....

Alot of people seem to think that possibly sydney had done it as Julia Thorne and that Jack is protecting her.... my theory is that it was Vaughn. Why do I think it was Vaughn? -- because of several clues (that I may be reading to much into thanks to season 3... :lol: ).

-- Jack's response of "A satisfying lie can do more good than the awful truth" (or something like that ) to Sydney after she asked why he manipulated Nadia -- cut to Jack looking in a room focused on Nadia, Syd, and Vaughn and to me it appears as if he is staring straight at Vaughn.

-- In APO, Sloane asking Jack if Sydney knows the truth -- cut to Jack staring at Sydney and Vaughn down the hallway.... Jack's response: "It would incapacitate her"

On second thought -- maybe I am reading too much into it. :sideroll: See what a week long migraine will do to you..... :sideroll:

And sorry for going off topic....

What do you think Jack was trying to discover during his psychological examination of Nadia? He and Sloane seem to be very buddy-buddy in their plans for the girls so far. What do you think of that?

I think he was trying to find out exactly who he was dealing with and whether or not when Nadia does find out what exactly she will do....

And as far as Sloane and Jack.... I've always thought that Jack was in "cahoots" with Bill Vaughn and even Brill in protecting Nadia -- and not only Nadia but Sydney. Maybe Sloane was part of it as well.... hmmmm....

 

[Alias_Gay]

If we go with the theory that Sydney is the killer, the hit could be part of the cover-up, part of Irina's scheme that led to the killing, a response on Katya's part . . . it could fit into a number of scenarios. My problem with Jack calling it on (as someone suggested) is that Tamazaki abducts Sydney--this is a scenario that Jack should foresee. If he called the hit, then he is basically sending Sydney in to pick up that piece of critical info from Tamazaki--at incredible risk because he knows that Tamazaki never completed his job or picked up his paycheck. Somehow I doubt Jack would want to take this risk--not while putting control of the situation in Tamazaki's hands!

Meanwhile, if Katya ordered the hit, where did it go? Why did it "go away"? And for that matter, why was it called in the first place? Was it for revenge, or what?

If it comes out to it, we could say that Syd had killed Irina and thats why she erased her memory ... so the story would definitely change ... so lets go with it and say ... she kills Irina, Jack hears about it (since we know that Jack knew she was alive, but he was sent to prison) ... Syd erases her memory and she comes back with no memories, 2 years laters ... (but it would be the same day after killing Irina) ... Jack wants to protect her against knowing the truth (thats why he was not willing to do anything regarding the memory thing) ... all of a sudden, she gets to hear a 'full disclosure' (a truth, which could have been changed, so she would never know the real truth) ... then we bring Lauren into the mix, and Katya ... pretending to be Irina IM-ing Jack (who knows Irina is dead) ... but continue IM-ing her to find out who is doing that ... "passenger" mentioned, Irina disappeared (but Jack knows that Irina is dead), Katya resurfaces as a good guy to help Jack and Sydney, but at the end, tries to kill Sydney ... Lauren finds out the truth, because she specifically tells Syd "why do you think you haven't had no contact with your mother, only Jack", not in those words, but you get the grip ... she tells her about the papers in Wittenberg and we got to season 4, where Sydney finds out that Jack killed Irina ... Jack is protecting her, and doesn't want to tell her the truth to "incapacitate her" ...

Jack would never ordered the hit, and then send Syd into Tamasaki's hands ... that would be stupid ...

So, I am thinking that Katya ordered the hit while pretending to be Irina ... and she wanted to revenge her sister's killer ... in this case Sydney ...

it gets complicated more than that ... I know ... :blink:

 

[SurvAgentBristow]

i like the way you think Alias_Gay....it definatly makes sense....Jack definatly knows what is best for Sydney and wants to keep it from her...and Nadia. If it is Sydney and Nadia finds out...that would be bad for Sydney...unless she can overpower Nadia, which brings this all back to the passenger/chosen one...only one surviving...

 

[Azalea]

Lauren finds out the truth, because she specifically tells Syd "why do you think you haven't had no contact with your mother, only Jack", not in those words, but you get the grip ... she tells her about the papers in Wittenberg and we got to season 4, where Sydney finds out that Jack killed Irina ... Jack is protecting her, and doesn't want to tell her the truth to "incapacitate her" ...

Another interesting thing that Lauren said is "You think the CIA couldn't find you when you went missing, or that you learned what happened to you by chance?" If Sydney did kill Irina, that puts all this in a new light. Was the CIA aware that she did it? What if they programmed her to kill Irina as a fall-back and Jack authorized it, but when she became an adult he decided that he couldn't let it happen that way and tried to stop it, and that's why he was put into prison? The CIA wanted Irina dead and needed Jack out of the way. So when he could, he created the official looking records to make it seem that he had killed Irina so that that's what Sydney would find when she inevitably searched for her memories. So Jack worked with Kendall and decided to give Syd an explanation for her erased memories (the one that she had left for herself).

Yeah, I have no idea what I'm talking about. I can't remember the timeline at all, and I've had way too much coffee. :lol: Just throwin' felgercarb out there....

 

[Alias_Gay]

I think we could write this episode the way we want it and show it to JJ and see if he can use it ...

and I am sure that would be the best way to resolve this issue, having Syd kill Irina and having Jack and Kendall orchestrate their truth to Syd ... and now that she has found out that "Jack killed Irina" ... she most definitely needs to find out the real truth ...

 

[verdantheart]

Jack wants to protect her against knowing the truth (thats why he was not willing to do anything regarding the memory thing) ...  and Katya ... pretending to be Irina IM-ing Jack (who knows Irina is dead) ... but continue IM-ing her to find out who is doing that ... "passenger" mentioned, Irina disappeared (but Jack knows that Irina is dead), Katya resurfaces as a good guy to help Jack and Sydney, but at the end, tries to kill Sydney ...

Jack would never ordered the hit, and then send Syd into Tamasaki's hands ... that would be stupid ...

So, I am thinking that Katya ordered the hit while pretending to be Irina ... and she wanted to revenge her sister's killer ... in this case Sydney ...

[post="1167644"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]​

So, if Jack knows Irina is not present, he trusts Katya to rescue Sydney in Korea? He's really depending on Katya's need to prove that Irina's still alive . . . then he gets socked with a price. Or is it his need to prove that he believes that Irina's still alive?--that's a big risk to take when Sydney's life is at stake . . .

What if they programmed her to kill Irina as a fall-back and Jack authorized it, but when she became an adult he decided that he couldn't let it happen that way and tried to stop it, and that's why he was put into prison?  The CIA wanted Irina dead and needed Jack out of the way.  So when he could, he created the official looking records to make it seem that he had killed Irina so that that's what Sydney would find when she inevitably searched for her memories.  So Jack worked with Kendall and decided to give Syd an explanation for her erased memories (the one that she had left for herself).

[post="1167748"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]​

An interesting story, for sure . . . but do you really see Jack as ever doing something so incredibly diabolical to his daughter? Yes, he'd run her through the Project Christmas protocol--to render her capable of withstanding the kind of mental conditioning that she was later subjected to! But to turn her into a automaton who would destroy her own mother?! I don't think "deciding that he couldn't let that happen" would be enough after a reveal like that; Jack might have to leave the show. Meanwhile, there could be circumstances (given what we know about Irina) under which Sydney would be forced to kill her--circumstances which would leave Sydney in an extremely sympathetic light.

Meanwhile, much of the story that Kendall told Sydney must be true--it just wasn't the whole truth. (Which is what I've been saying all along, remember?) I also pointed out that Kendall was careful to show up when Jack was conspicuously absent. I still think there's significance to that. I'd like to think if anyone was tinkering with Sydney regarding this particular mission, it wasn't Jack. -_-

I think we could write this episode the way we want it and show it to JJ and see if he can use it ...

[post="1167756"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]​

I wouldn't! If he's thinking along these lines and gets something remotely like it, he'll probably try to do something different lest someone claim that "you stole my idea!!!" :lol: (You know how Hollywood is . . .) Anyway, they're filming way ahead, so we'd be late. ^_^

 

[Alias_Gay]

I wouldn't! If he's thinking along these lines and gets something remotely like it, he'll probably try to do something different lest someone claim that "you stole my idea!!!"  :lol: (You know how Hollywood is . . .) Anyway, they're filming way ahead, so we'd be late.  ^_^

[post="1168815"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]​

LOL ... I would never do that to JJ

J/K ... yeah, they have basically filmed most of the eppy's ... and I am sure gonna trust him enough to some day this season we'll definitely find out the whole truth