Politics War with Iraq

Well, from memory, the shiites have always held dominance in population, but have never EVER been given any power when it comes to politics. The result of this election is a huge step forward for them, their voices and identities have been oppressed really and the result giving them the power that they have, really, always been entitled to by sheer numbers in population. I hope they put the country back on the right track :smiley:
 
wow i overused the word personally in that post.

anyway, i really hope the elections work, but were they fair? are theylikely to stick? is it ever going to be democratic without a bias??
 
I really hope they go well. Time will tell if Iraq can handle democracy. I'm sure that the election was ligitimate, but I don't know if it will stick. I hope it will.
 
Goodness...I have absolutely no idea...right now democracy isn't working, so I think there will be civil war and ethnic struggle.

But I have no idea as to what the actually governmental outcome will be.
 
Jamison said:
Goodness...I have absolutely no idea...right now democracy isn't working, so I think there will be civil war and ethnic struggle.

But I have no idea as to what the actually governmental outcome will be.
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Ditto, this question is kinda hard ;)
 
The democracy is being paralyzed by the internal feuding between the different religious sects. If that rift isn't bridged then a democracy can never exist in Iraq. Unfortunately it's very difficult to smooth out such tensions that are centuries old.
 
The only solution to the religious disputes is if one party is eliminated. Peace talks wont work, as has been domonstrated time and tim again in the middle east.
 
Spike said:
The democracy is being paralyzed by the internal feuding between the different religious sects. If that rift isn't bridged then a democracy can never exist in Iraq. Unfortunately it's very difficult to smooth out such tensions that are centuries old.
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Exactly...the death toll month by month has acutally risen since the election, and insurgent attacks have risen by 40% since the election.

I don't see democracy working...ever, really.

You can't settle a dispute that's been going on for years with a sudden wave of a hand.
 
Jamison said:
Exactly...the death toll month by month has acutally risen since the election, and insurgent attacks have risen by 40% since the election.

I don't see democracy working...ever, really.

You can't settle a dispute that's been going on for years with a sudden wave of a hand.
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gee, well that's optimistic. i certainly hope democracy works, and i thinks it's certainly possible evven if it doesn't seem probable right now.
 
xdancer said:
gee, well that's optimistic.  i certainly hope democracy works, and i thinks it's certainly possible evven if it doesn't seem probable right now.
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I hope you're right...I seriously do. But given the facts as it is now, democracy isn't working...and I don't think that is something you can dispute.

Of course it's going to take time...but when a lot of the insurgent attacks and issues over there are on a basis of religion, it's not going to be easily solved.
 
Jamison said:
I hope you're right...I seriously do.  But given the facts as it is now, democracy isn't working...and I don't think that is something you can dispute.

Of course it's going to take time...but when a lot of the insurgent attacks and issues over there are on a basis of religion, it's not going to be easily solved.
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what do you mean it isn't working? my how soon we forget the election where thousands of Iraqis braved the terrorist threats and went and voted. sure they're having issues getting it off the ground, but it's only been a few months. why don't we let the Iraqis catch their breath. i don't think they'll give up at the first sign of political conflict.
 
We got democracy into germany, so there is a history of this happening

I don't think comparisions with Germany are right as Germany endured maybe 15 years of the Nazi's and at first it wasn't total dictatorship. It was a democracy before you got there.

Nor can I see strong links with Isreal Palestine, what you need to avoid at all costs is entrenchment which is what happed with Arafat. The "no surrender" mentalility
hasn't been acquired in Iraq yet so there is every chance of peace.

Hopefully Iraq will eventually use a Turkish model of secular government while still retaining its Islamic culture.

Sectarian differences aren't an insurmountable problem. While its taken them a long time, in esscence it requires only that all people are treated equally by the state. If there not, sectarian violence tends to erupt (ie Catholic voting rights in Northen Ireland.)

When you get a situation like in N.Ireland now and in Iraq where major governmental jobs are shared ie Shia PM, Kurdish president you get a situation with less volititly. While you will still get a minority of people who like to blow things up, it makes their cause less attractive when people think their being listened to.

I think we forget their are vast tracts of Iraq that are peaceful, such as the Northern Kurdish controlled area and the South where British and Polish troops are stationed around Basra seem pretty quite so maybe this will grow in influence and spread to the rest of Iraq.
 
xdancer said:
what do you mean it isn't working?  my how soon we forget the election where thousands of Iraqis braved the terrorist threats and went and voted.  sure they're having issues getting it off the ground, but it's only been a few months.  why don't we let the Iraqis catch their breath.  i don't think they'll give up at the first sign of political conflict.
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How is it working? Because I haven't seen any evidence of it working.

Since the January elections we have seen a rise in Iraqi civilian deaths. In January it was 447, in February it rose to 606, and the number of media-reported deaths involving the deaths of civilians and captives from January to March is 376...which is more than double what it was during the same period last year. And overall attacks are up by 40% since the elections have taken place.

American Style Democracy in Iraq -- Arrogance?
Jason N. Thelen, Veterans for Common Sense -- Guest Column
Posted 2005-03-04 01:19:00.0

We are attempting to impose an American-style democracy in Iraq, but their culture is such that our system is unworkable and unstable when applied to them.  I spent a year in Iraq, where I was part of the effort to restore government and rebuild infrastructure.  Part of my job was to train, mentor, and oversee the neighborhood and district councils in Sadr City.  The councils are the legislative branch of the fledgling government, but they are basically inept and ineffective. 

Why is the system failing?  The problems we are experiencing are not the result of a lack of effort by American soldiers and civilians.  Our soldiers are doing the best they can in a difficult situation.  But, Iraqi values are different than ours.  The Arab value system in Iraq draws strongly from the tribal influences of their past.  The tribal culture serves to bind a group of loosely-related people together for safety, and against those outside of the tribe.  Their value system treasures immediate family, self, tribe members, friends, and other Muslims (to some extent).  They do not feel allegiance to others outside of those groups, and many view outsiders as enemies and competitors for scarce resources.  Because the leaders’ values are focused on their special groups, their decisions favor those groups to the detriment of the country as a whole. 

Iraqis have no national identity, and they do not feel a connection to a person simply because he is from the same country.  For example, a typical man in Baghdad might identify himself as a Muslim and a member of the Al Ka’abi tribe, but not as an Iraqi.  On the other hand, Americans feel patriotic pride and believe that all living within our borders are connected and deserving of respect.  Many of us are willing to volunteer for national service and cherish what binds us all together.  Iraqis do not believe in “Iraq”, which is essentially an artificial demarcation created in the early twentieth century.  When citizens have no empathy for strangers, their decisions and actions will be inconsistent with democracy.   

Corruption is rampant in the fledgling government.  We train the leaders in ethics and their responsibilities to the people, and they understand the abstract notions.  Yet, they do not see their illegal actions as “wrong”.  Nepotism is the rule, rather than the exception.  Taking kickbacks for awarding a government contract is expected, not unethical.  If you can profit from your government job, then that is simply a fringe benefit, like free coffee at the office. 

Example: Sadr City is a dank, dirty slum that was built to hold 750,000 people.  It now has 2.5 million.  Sewage literally flows through the streets because the underground lines are filled with dead animals, trash, and anything else that needs to be “out of sight, out of mind.”  One street, dubbed “Route Silver” by the Army, typically had 18-24 inches of sewage across the road.  In the winter between 2003 and 2004, each of the 100 neighborhoods in Sadr City was allocated $10,000 to spend on a project that would improve their conditions.  Each of the eight neighborhood councils in Sadr City had the ability to decide where that money would be spent, and we could produce the cash to pay contractors upon their submission of a 1-2 page project proposal.  The Ishbilia neighborhood council insisted that they needed ten soccer fields.  Forget the sewage, ignore the lack of clean water, and the scarcity of medical supplies be damned.  They wanted to spend all the money on soccer fields.  I finally discovered that the standard contractor kickback system returned a much higher dollar amount back to the council if they built soccer fields, which was entirely a labor endeavor.  If they bought tangible items, such as medical supplies or school books, the council received fairly little money.  Hence, a soccer field on every block.  When I convinced them to submit a proposal to distribute medical supplies, the doctor on the council championed the idea.  He then sold the supplies out of his clinic.     

Many Iraqis are strongly religious, which is not wrong in and of itself.  But, their religious fervor often leads to a lack of tolerance and even hate for opposing religions and views.  When leaders mock and revile those different from themselves, the democracy is unstable and devolves into violence.  It also causes harsh resistance to female participation in government.  I personally witnessed serious intimidation and threats aimed at women that wished to be involved in the fledgling government.  Some had the courage to stay involved, but most withdrew in fear for their safety.  Others were simply killed.  Recently, anti-Shiite violence has become a problem, with their opponents bombing mosques and religious gatherings. 

The men and women I worked with grasped the idea of democracy, but most of them were looking to increase their own personal power and advance their own agendas.  For example, one council member decided that distribution of propane cylinders to his constituents could be handled more effectively if he commandeered the delivery trucks and oversaw the rationing personally.  Out of his own house.  At double the maximum price set by the Ministry of Oil.  Of course, that extra money was “for his troubles.”     

How do we solve the problem?  We can use a heavy hand and make decisions for Iraqis, but that is not democracy.  Self-rule is inherent in democracy.  If we attempt to force a square peg into a round hole, we will alienate Iraqis against our nation and our ideals, and violence against us will escalate.  My personal belief, which is shared by many of the Iraqis I met, is to adopt a constitutional monarchy with a benevolent leader that will use the oil revenues for the good of the people.  For example, many Iraqis support the cousin and heir to the throne of the deposed king, Faisal II.  He has a legitimate claim as leader, and he has wide-ranging support from the populace.  Or, we could suggest another system which includes and respects that Iraqi culture is different from American culture.  But, we are arrogant to believe that American-style democracy is the solution for Iraq.

Jason Thelen served as a Captain in the US Army Reserve during Operation Iraqi Freedom. This is the fourth in a series of columns he is writing for Veterans for Common Sense. He can be reached at jthelen294@yahoo.com
 
I would disagree with the assertion that it is "american" style democracy being imposed. How many American governments share power with a rival political party?

The idea that Iraq as one of the cradles of civilisation cannot take to democracy is a bit strange.

How is it working? Because I haven't seen any evidence of it working.

Since the January elections we have seen a rise in Iraqi civilian deaths. In January it was 447, in February it rose to 606, and the number of media-reported deaths involving the deaths of civilians and captives from January to March is 376...which is more than double what it was during the same period last year. And overall attacks are up by 40% since the elections have taken place.

But how many Iraqi's can now live in peace because Hussain is gone. How many people in Basra and Kurdistan can sleep at night. And if its so dangerous in Iraq how many deaths have their been in America or Russia or Brazil in the same period.
 
noggi16 said:
But how many Iraqi's can now live in peace because Hussain is gone. How many people in Basra and Kurdistan can sleep at night. And if its so dangerous in Iraq how many deaths have their been in America or Russia or Brazil in the same period.
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You could turn that around though. How many Iraqi's can't sleep at night because they are worried about these insurgent attacks? There have been over 20,000 Iraqi civilians killed since this war began. I can't tell you how they're sleeping...because I haven't asked them, but I imgaine that they still live in fear.

And of course we have violence in America...but I find it hard that you can compare our violence to theirs. I'm not afraid to leave my house because a suicide bomber could strike at my local grocery store. Nor am I afraid that a man walking next to me could be planning to launch a mortar attack.

Iraq and America are two extremely different places.
 
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