Politics War with Iraq

Five U.S. troops killed in Iraq attacks
U.S. offensives launched in western part of country

BAGHDAD, Iraq (CNN) -- Four U.S. soldiers and a Marine have been killed in attacks in Iraq, military officials said Tuesday.

The deaths were announced on the same day as U.S.-led forces launched an offensive in the western province of Anbar, where four of the troops died, military statements said.

Three soldiers from the 2nd Regimental Combat Team, 2nd Marine Division, II Marine Expeditionary Force (Forward) died from injuries sustained in a blast Monday, officials said.

All three were involved in combat operations in the Anbar city of Haqlaniya, a statement said, but it was not clear whether they were all killed by the same roadside bomb.

Separately, a U.S. Marine was killed in action Monday by a roadside bomb in the Anbar city of Karabila, a military statement said. The Marine was assigned to the same combat team as the soldiers and was involved in Operation Iron Fist. (Watch Marines battle insurgents in Karabila. (Viewer discsretion advised) -- 2:28)

A U.S. soldier with the Army's 56th Brigade Combat Team died Monday morning from injuries sustained from a gunshot wound near Taqaddum in central Iraq, a military statement said Tuesday. The incident that happened about 50 miles (80 kilometers) northwest of Baghdad is under investigation.

The deaths -- which take the total number of U.S. personnel killed in Iraq since the beginning of the war to 1,944 -- were announced on the same day as two more offensives were launched in Anbar province, which borders Syria.

Some 2,500 U.S. Marines, soldiers and sailors together with 400 to 500 Iraqi soldiers were deployed for Operation River Gate -- the largest ever offensive for the U.S. military in Anbar, a statement said.

"The operation's goal is to deny al Qaeda in Iraq (AQI) the ability to operate in the three Euphrates River Valley cities and to free the local citizens from the insurgents' campaign of murder and intimidation of innocent women, children and men," a U.S. military statement said.

The forces from Combat Team-2 are focusing on the area around Haditha, about 75 miles (120 kilometers) west of Baghdad, but will also take in the neighboring cities of Haqlaniya and Darwana.

"Haditha is an important crossroads for AQI's smuggling activities from the Syrian border. Once in Haditha, smugglers can go north to Mosul or continue on to Ramadi, Falluja or Baghdad," the statement said.

Also launched Tuesday morning was Operation Mountaineers -- described by the military as a "cordon and search operation" in and around Ramadi's southern district of Tammin.

A military statement said 500 U.S. service members and 400 Iraqi security forces were taking part in the operation to "disrupt insurgents in southern Ramadi who are transporting weapons and munitions into the city."

The two offensives follow Operation Iron Fist, launched by the U.S. military in Anbar province with about 1,000 Marines, soldiers and sailors from Regimental Combat Team-2.

U.S.-led forces have mounted operations in Anbar before. Previous offensives have lasted about a week, but insurgents have returned to towns after the troops have left.

The three operations in Anbar come ahead of an October 15 referendum on Iraq's new constitution and amid continuing violence across the country.

A car bomb exploded Tuesday near the Green Zone in Baghdad, which houses military headquarters and diplomatic missions. There were no immediate reports of casualties.

British civilian arrested

A British civilian and nine Iraqis have been arrested by Iraq's border security force, a British military spokesman in the southern city of Basra told CNN Tuesday.

The spokesman could not confirm the time, location or circumstances of the arrest, but an Iraqi police official in the central city of Najaf told CNN that "10 suspected terrorists" were arrested near the Saudi border on Monday, noting that among them was a British national.

Col. Thamer Kamel with the Iraqi border guard in Najaf said a British national by the name of Colin Peter was arrested around 8 p.m. (12 noon ET) Monday along with nine Iraqis on a highway between Anbar and Najaf.

Peter claimed to be a contractor, but his passport did not support his claim, Kamel said. The group, traveling in three GMC Suburbans, was carrying machine guns and GPS satellite technology.

According to Kamel, Peter is being held by the border guard, pending a response from the British embassy.

British Embassy officials in Baghdad said they could not confirm the report at this time.

In London, a spokesman with the British Foreign Office said: "We are aware of the reports that the Iraqis have arrested a British national. We are investigating the circumstances and we will have more details later on."
 
Bush was elected 5 years ago, how is he relevant?

has anyone brought up that article before? if not, then it's relevant.

I think what she meant was what was your point in posting it?

It seemed like half an article, and you didn't give any explanation. Maybe if you had explained yourself it would've seemed relevant.
 
Bush was elected 5 years ago, how is he relevant?

has anyone brought up that article before? if not, then it's relevant.

It would help if you provided reasoning for your article instead of reacting defensively. Besides, Bush is relevant because he is still ruling the U.S. So that argument doesn't hold.
 
Bush is relevant because he is still ruling the U.S. So that argument doesn't hold.
well, we're still in Iraq so that is why I used the Bush example. even though the event happened in the past, its effects are still felt today.

i thought it was obvious what the point of the article was, but for those who just read it and didnt bother thinking about it, we could've had info on Iraq's nuclear program (or lack thereof) back in 2003, but we dismissed it. furthermore, we dismissed the info from a person close to Saddam.
 
this is not the most logical post, it's just where i am right now:

i have not paid much attention to what has been said previously in this thread, i'm sure a lot of good points have been made for both sides. now personally, i don't know where i stand on this topic. i come from a very military family. my dad is a retired marine, my uncle was a marine (may he rest in peace), my grandfather was an Air Force pilot and 3 war vet (WW2, Korean, Vietnam) (may he rest in peace), my other uncle is a Navy Seal serving in Iraq, my step aunt and her hubby are both air force pilots, my step uncle is a marine. so i've pretty much grown up with thinking War is a bad thing, but sometimes is necessary, therefore brave people (on both sides) go out and fight.

so basically, it's not surprising that most of my family is very supportive of this war.

me i'm in the middle. i think the reasons behind it weren't the greatest, if great at all. but i think that we're helping people in Iraq. and hopefully, some day they will have the safety and security that we have here in America. no this is not a utopian world, therefore, it will not happen easily or even nicely. sometimes, force is neccessary. but not brutal force. and not against innocent civilians.
 
i think that we're helping people in Iraq...sometimes, force is neccessary. but not brutal force. and not against innocent civilians.
BBC News said:
White phosphorus: weapon on the edge

The Pentagon's admission - despite earlier denials - that US troops used white phosphorus as a weapon in Falluja last year is more than a public relations issue - it has opened up a debate about the use of this weapon in modern warfare.


The admission contradicted a statement this week from the new and clearly under-briefed US ambassador in London Robert Holmes Tuttle that US forces "do not use napalm or white phosphorus as weapons".

The official line to that point had been that WP, or Willie Pete to use its old name from Vietnam, was used only to illuminate the battlefield and to provide smoke for camouflage.

'Shake 'n Bake'

This line however crumbled when bloggers (whose influence must not be under-estimated these days) ferreted out an article published by the US Army's Field Artillery Magazine in its issue of March/April this year.

The article, written by a captain, a first lieutenant and a sergeant, was a review of the attack on Falluja in November 2004 and in particular of the use of indirect fire, mainly mortars.

It makes quite clear that WP was used as a weapon not just as illumination or camouflage.

"WP proved to be an effective and versatile munition. We used it for screening missions at two breeches and, later in the fight, as a potent psychological weapon against the insurgents in trench lines and spider holes where we could not get effects on them with HE [High Explosive]. We fired "shake and bake" missions at the insurgents, using WP to flush them out and HE to take them out," the article said.

In another passage the authors noted that they could have used other smoke munitions and "saved our WP for lethal missions".

A word about the term "shake and bake." Anyone with a family to feed in the US knows what this term, properly "Shake 'n Bake, means. Made by Kraft, it is a seasoning which is shaken onto chicken before baking. Its use gives the article the smack of reality. It's the kind of thing US soldiers would say.

Vietnam precedent

This tactic of forcing opponents out of cover is not new and should not really have come as a surprise. An article looking back at the Vietnam war published in 1996 by a US armoured unit (1st Battalion, 69th Armor) referred to "Willie Pete" weapons and their use in getting North Vietnamese troops to leave their positions:

"Our normal procedure was to fire these things at a hillside as soon as possible in order to get them out of the fighting compartment."

One wonders of course if, in Falluja, WP was used more directly to kill insurgents and not just to flush them out. In battle, soldiers take short cuts and this seems an obvious one.

Embed report

Evidence that this happened in Falluja comes from an article by a reporter, Darrin Mortenson of the North County Times in California, who was embedded with US marines there.

He wrote about a mortar unit receiving coordinates of a target and opening fire:

"The boom kicked the dust around the pit as they ran through the drill again and again, sending a mixture of burning white phosphorus and high explosives they call 'shake 'n bake' into a cluster of buildings where insurgents have been spotted all week."

The tactic therefore seems to have been not to flush them out first but to bombard them simultaneously with the two types of weapons.

Chemical Weapons Convention

The debate about WP centres partly though not wholly on whether it is really a chemical weapon. Such weapons are outlawed by the Chemical Weapons Convention (CWC) to which the United States is a party.

The CWC is monitored by the Organisation for the Prohibition of Chemical Weapons, based in The Hague. Its spokesman Peter Kaiser was asked if WP was banned by the CWC and he had this to say:

"No it's not forbidden by the CWC if it is used within the context of a military application which does not require or does not intend to use the toxic properties of white phosphorus. White phosphorus is normally used to produce smoke, to camouflage movement.

"If that is the purpose for which the white phosphorus is used, then that is considered under the Convention legitimate use.

"If on the other hand the toxic properties of white phosphorus, the caustic properties, are specifically intended to be used as a weapon, that of course is prohibited, because the way the Convention is structured or the way it is in fact applied, any chemicals used against humans or animals that cause harm or death through the toxic properties of the chemical are considered chemical weapons."

WP - the arguments

So WP itself is not a chemical weapon and therefore not illegal. However, used in a certain way, it might become one. Not that "a certain way" can easily be defined, if at all.

The US can say therefore that this is not a chemical weapon and further, it argues that it is not the toxic properties but the heat from WP which causes the damage. And, this argument goes, since incendiary weapons are not covered by the CWC, therefore the use of WP against combatants is not prohibited.

Critics claim that the US used chemical weapons in Falluja, on the grounds that it is the toxic properties which cause the harm. The UK's Guardian newspaper for example said: "The US used chemical weapons in Iraq - and then lied about it."

There is an intense debate on the blog sites about this issue. "It's not a chemical weapon" says Liberal Against Terror. "CONFIRMED: WP is a CW if used to cause harm through toxic properties," says Daily Kos.

Tactical use of WP

The other argument is about the use of WP as a weapon.

The initial denials from the Pentagon suggest a certain hesitation, embarrassment even, about such a tactic. Some decisions must have been taken in the past to limit its use in certain battlefield scenarios (urban warfare for example). It is not used against civilians.

However the United States has not signed up to a convention covering incendiary weapons which seeks to restrict their use.

This convention has the cumbersome title "Convention on Certain Conventional Weapons." Agreed in 1980, its Protocol III covers "Prohibitions or Restrictions on use of Incendiary Weapons."

This prohibits WP or other incendiaries (like flamethrowers) against civilians or civilian objects and its use by air strikes against military targets located in a concentration of civilians. It also limits WP use by other means (such as mortars or direct fire from tanks) against military targets in a civilian area. Such targets have to be separated from civilian concentrations and "all feasible precautions" taken to avoid civilian casualties.

Notwithstanding the US position on the Convention, the use of WP against insurgents within Falluja does at least bring the issue into discussion, though one should note that the soldiers who wrote the Field Artillery article do say that their unit "encountered few civilians in its attack south".
 
bushy should screw himself for he bombed and slaughtered iraqis :lol:
Keep in mind that both Democrats AND Republicans agreed to invade Iraq. Don't just blame Bush. Blame the American people that continue to support our corporate political parties. Many fail to see that Democrats and Republicans agree on many things.
 
Keep in mind that both Democrats AND Republicans agreed to invade Iraq. Don't just blame Bush. Blame the American people that continue to support our corporate political parties. Many fail to see that Democrats and Republicans agree on many things.


Yes Dems and Republicans agreed to invade Iraq, but Bush had his eyes set on Iraq long before any resolution was passed in Congress. Downing Street Memo, anyone?
 
Yes Dems and Republicans agreed to invade Iraq, but Bush had his eyes set on Iraq long before any resolution was passed in Congress. Downing Street Memo, anyone?


The Downing Street memo, I remember it well because it went largely ignored which was unfortunate because it was a pretty damning document.

As far as Republicans and Democrats voting for this war, Lincoln Chafee was the ONLY Republican that voted against invading Iraq. It's like what Jon Stewart said when he was on Larry King earlier this year, the democrats have 49% of the vote but 3% of the power (this was obviously before the midterm elections). I think debating who should take full on responsibility for invading is almost pointless because we can't turn back the clock (although Hilary and John Edwards wish they could) we've been in this for years now. What's important is both parties and Mr. Bush need to find a way to bring our troops home.
 
Play nicely, children. ^_^

Let's just say though there may have been support from both sides, many Dems (and now others) disapprove of the methods and execution of plans in Iraq. The way it went down was completely backwards. Iraq may have deserved to be shaken up, but I think we all agree that the state it's in now is awful. It's probably going to end in dictatorship, dependency, loss of stateship, or maybe (one hopes) a peacefully quiet country with a friendly leader.
 
:lol: Wow. That's a first.

Anyway. What do people think of Bush's new plan of action? He claims it will work better than his prior ones... To me, more troops is just depressing.
 
His new plan, sadly won't work. Instead he's just putting 21,500 more lifes in jeopardy with this insane war. This new "surge" will have the levels of troops at the same level they were 2 years ago, and obviously that didn't help.

I don't know what the answer is, but I don't think putting more lives in danger is it.

As a side note, is anyone else getting worried that Bush and company have been upping the rhetoric in regards to Iran and Syria?
 
Let's just say though there may have been support from both sides, many Dems (and now others) disapprove of the methods and execution of plans in Iraq.
What most people do not realise is the kind of trouble the US is in. The Dems play the "we want to end this war" card and yet, they disagree with the execution of the war, not the war itself. They want to re-think our strategy and fail to realise that if they were truly against the war, they would bring our troops home now. Forget this troop surge idea, because nearly 9 out of 10 Americans are against the idea of increasing our troops there.
 
It's times like these I wonder if the President has too much power, being the sole person who controls the army (in essence). He can make a bad decision, and we can't really stop him without a lot of trouble.

I can't help but think no matter what we do in Iraq, we will never achieve what we went there to do. It was a bad idea from the start (not only badly executed, in my opinion), and look where it's gotten us. Just because Saddam was a bad dictator doesn't give us the right to go into Iraq and mess things up like we have. Have we invaded every other country with an evil leader? No. We haven't, and for good reason. :rolleyes:
 
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