What if crafting wasn't in HJ? Ever.

[Javewa]

Hmm, I think the absence of 'manufacturing' would be a tremendous loss. Even if it was a mindless WoW'esque crafting. There'd just be something missing for me, I guess.
I actually rarely craft myself in MMOs but like the gathering part of it. My secret substitute for grinding.

On an UO-Freeshard I played the 'Craftsman' Class. Basically I'd mine whenever I was online. Eventually a few friends and I founded a player city and I bought my own mine. MINE (and for that bad pun alone I should burn). The mine soon became the town's marketplace where everyone would socialize.
Off-topic? Like I care!
Aww, what great fun UO was...

*runs off to search the house for his UO copy*

 

[Seeria]

Why thank you for answering....

From what you said, I'm trying to picture this NON crafting system. *smirks*

The day starts with little ole me out to hunt me some good ole wyr. I've a hankering for a new dress with a flaming train and my bonnet is in dire need of reinforced armor factor.

Off I go to hunt, and after a few hours I secure the odds and ends of wyr I need. I skip back to the pit I affectionately refer to as a town, stroll on into the local wyr forge to begin the process.

Wait... forgot to put on my luck wyr charms. *slip those babies on* Ready... now carefully, carefully.... you don't want to set off... um well wyr don't explode do they? Okay, carefully place wyr10045 into slot b and wy89456 into slot a, steady your mouse...err hand as you click errr wave it over the magic um button, billow?... and DING ... you have failed to combine said wyrs, sucker. Go back to farming.


Hmm. Alright, granted the system sounds less tedious, however it does sound far less exciting. Where are the harvesting dangers? Combine explosions? Furnace meltdowns? Reading a good book while waving your hand err clicking buttons?


*sigh*

 

[PrestoAdam]

Originally posted by Riceman@Jun 22 2006, 08:46 AM
After a bit of thinking....isn't the Wyr system effectively one monstrous crafting system? We can pretty much create any item we want using Wyr....

Hmmm, interesting observation.

I wonder though, if the Wyr enhance items, why buy the enhanced items at all? Why not just buy the Wyr?

As a 'crafter', the only way my item itself would have value is if my Wyr combination caused some unusual enhancement to an item in a way that the buyer could not duplicate. So if the Wyr I used was hidden, and the effect was unusual, that would make MY item special and only obtainable from me.

Otherwise, anyone who bought the item could see the Wyr I used to create it, find those same Wyr, and make identical items.

Am I understanding the system?

 

[Eve_CinVin]

As I understand Hero's Journey, the developers are creating the kind of fun game they would like to play. I doubt they will include much unfun stuff. If wyr worked similiar to the enhancements do in CoH, it would be ok, I guess.

 

[HJ-Diviana]

Originally posted by Presto+Jun 22 2006, 06:19 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Presto @ Jun 22 2006, 06:19 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-Riceman@Jun 22 2006, 08:46 AM
After a bit of thinking....isn't the Wyr system effectively one monstrous crafting system? We can pretty much create any item we want using Wyr....

Hmmm, interesting observation.

I wonder though, if the Wyr enhance items, why buy the enhanced items at all? Why not just buy the Wyr?

As a 'crafter', the only way my item itself would have value is if my Wyr combination caused some unusual enhancement to an item in a way that the buyer could not duplicate. So if the Wyr I used was hidden, and the effect was unusual, that would make MY item special and only obtainable from me.

Otherwise, anyone who bought the item could see the Wyr I used to create it, find those same Wyr, and make identical items.

Am I understanding the system? [/b][/quote]
Don't forget, different Wyr have different slots.

If you can't make a slot to put your Wyr in, but you can buy that super awesome sword which is exactly what you want pre-fitted..

Well.. Does that make sense?


Just because you find a rare Wyr, doesn't always mean you'll be able to use it. (Edit: Not that you'll never be able to, unless it's for a different race or class.. Just that at lower levels you probably won't be able to use higher slot Wyr right away)

 

[Dyngo]

Originally posted by HJ-Diviana@Jun 23 2006, 03:15 AM
If you can't make a slot to put your Wyr in, but you can buy that super awesome sword which is exactly what you want pre-fitted..

Well.. Does that make sense?

Untill the wyr´s, economy and trade is fully explained I think i read to much "same old, different colour" in this sentence.

I mean, it really depends on how important items and/or wyrs are at the end game. If it is important I wouldnt really like the idea of buying the über1337-sword, I rather play the game to get it myself.

I really like the idea of actually "craft" your own weapon so it becomes "better" or have a "looks" that fit your character and playstyle.. allthough, It doesnt really make sence if you "need" to sell it, or "need" to buy a new one which is crafted for a different kind character.

It would make sence if you have to get a "better" weapon to make progress, but all of a sudden, the game would turn into a item based game.
(Or will we see a "forced wyr upgrade system" instead?).

 

[Seeria]

Originally posted by Dyngo@Jun 23 2006, 02:44 PM
It would make sence if you have to get a "better" weapon to make progress, but all of a sudden, the game would turn into a item based game.
(Or will we see a "forced wyr upgrade system" instead?).

Yes, I think so. Wyr seem to be no different than a rune in Shadowbane, an enchancement in other games, augmentations, or that rare ingredient from the EQers. Get wyr. Apply, combine. New <insert effect, ability, skill, stat, proc here> on old item. As you grow and mobs get harder, you will need to upgrade those wyr, because we already know some come with level restrictions.

Now what I want to see is wyrs that can grant illusions. Change me into a suwari for the day! Or a frog.

 

[Dyngo]

I read a GM on the mmorpg.com forums that we shouldnt expect the "forced item upgrade"-system in HJ. content.(Read it here)

But if we get a "Forced wyr upgrade" system instead... what will be the difference?
To me, it sounds like it could end up in the same boring <insert whatever item here> -hunt in the end game.

Could it be a "coverup" to call it crafting?? *conspiracy-mode*

..anyway, Ill wait on the explanaition on wyr´s and trading before ill go much further in this.

 

[PrestoAdam]

Originally posted by HJ-Diviana@Jun 22 2006, 07:15 PM
Don't forget, different Wyr have different slots.

If you can't make a slot to put your Wyr in, but you can buy that super awesome sword which is exactly what you want pre-fitted..

Hmmm, are you implying that somehow the player has the ability to take an existing item, and increase the quantity/quality of Wyr slots it has?

The mechanism of making this occur would determine if it could be described as crafting. For instance, if I take a sword, and go on a solo quest into an instance that presents me with challenges that ultimately lead to the goal of adding more/better Wyr slots, I would consider this crafting (hero style).

If, on the other hand, I can find Wyr that will add Wyr slots to an item, then I do not consider this crafting because anyone can do it.

Also, will adding Wyr in different orders cause different combination effects? If yes, then the unique knowledge through experimentation of the crafter would create items that are unique (at least until the web sites pop up with all the 'recipes'). If it does not matter the order, than I do not see crafting occurring.

If I have misunderstood and gone on a tangent, my apologies.

 

[Daax]

Crafting doesn't really matter that much to me.

 

[Seeria]

*slaps Daax and sends him back to his room* You will learn to love crafting or pay the ultimate price of ...



I'll think of something eventually

 

[Foxeye]

Forgive me if I'm asking something that's already been explained...my brain is jittery on caffeine and reading comprehension has gone down accordingly.

Is the addition of Wyr to an item something that can *fail*? Because if it can't fail, and if you can't do anything to increase your ability to apply Wyr, then it isn't crafting. There's no skill, no risk. It's more a quest, ala Guild Wars "crafting".

Regardless, I still Wyr are cool. I just think that calling it crafting if there's no actual skill or risk involved might actually aggravate those who want crafting.

Personally...I don't think I'd care much way if I couldn't craft. It's something I'd try for fun if it wast here, but I wouldn't miss it otherwise.

However, it's possible I might miss the presence of crafters as a social construct, and the sort of world that their existence contributes to. Hard to say, though, until I play the game. The benefit of crafters is that one could form a symbiotic relationship with them. Some of the best friends I made in games were crafters I came to trust, and who I would return to again and again. But HJ does have this "services" thing, so maybe that will serve the same function?

 

[Andira]

Originally posted by Presto@Jun 23 2006, 04:37 PM
The mechanism of making this occur would determine if it could be described as crafting. For instance, if I take a sword, and go on a solo quest into an instance that presents me with challenges that ultimately lead to the goal of adding more/better Wyr slots, I would consider this crafting (hero style).

If, on the other hand, I can find Wyr that will add Wyr slots to an item, then I do not consider this crafting because anyone can do it.

Also, will adding Wyr in different orders cause different combination effects? If yes, then the unique knowledge through experimentation of the crafter would create items that are unique (at least until the web sites pop up with all the 'recipes'). If it does not matter the order, than I do not see crafting occurring.

I have been lurking around for a while, but this topic finally draws me out of the shadows. I am a crafter at heart. I started combining implants all the way back in Anarchy Online, my first MMO and I was hooked. Heck, I first met my husband offering my nanoprogramming services on the hill in Old Athens.

For me, the fun of crafting is in the interaction with my customers, the feeling of being needed and not so much the actual process of making the product. The most fun I ever had with crafting was helping people find the perfect technique combinations for me to put into their spells in Horizons, helping to build the community and event structures there and the completely interactive and interdependable crafting system in EQ2 at launch. As an alchemist in EQ2 I spent hours churning out countless stacks of ingredients for my regular customers and it was fun enabling them to stay ahead of the curve, get discoveries and provide the adventurers with the armor, weapons, jewelery, ... they needed. After all the changes I must say my favourite crafting class in EQ2 is carpenter, or maybe I should say house decorator. I love creating a unique and individual home for people and it makes me proud to find my name written on their furniture. (I have to add I am currently not playing any MMO. I quit EQ2 a couple months ago for personal reasons, that don't have anything to do with me not liking the game anymore)

Now Presto has outlined the problem I have with the Wyr system in HJ, which I find great from a character customization perspective. If everybody can do everything on their own, how would I be able to find my niche and be needed anymore? I wouldn't call that a crafting system. There is no interaction between people required, except maybe for acquiring the Wyr. It's just character development and customization. I'm not making stuff for others.

Before you tell me to just go and play Sims Online or such, please understand that I do like to go and quest and bash mobs as well. I have played one game that didn't have some sort of crafting and that was CoH. I loved the theme, I had lots of fun with the frantic combat, even if it gave me a headache after a couple hours of playing, and I spent hours with the character creation coming up with new costume ideas. But once I got into EQ2 beta and found crafting, housing, pets, ... all the fluff that CoH doesn't have, I realized just how much I missed it. And rarely logged into CoH anymore.

HJ's quest system and character customization sound incredibly wonderful and innovative and the world is stunning, but I'm not sure if it could hold me in the long run if there isn't any crafting at all except for the Wyr.

I guess there are also the service skills like lockpicking or item identification, but those seem to force me to sit around in town announcing my business, which I don't find a lot of fun. I have done it in AO, but I much more enjoyed the system in EQ2 where I can just put my "looking for work" sign on, go harvest, do some solo quests, craft for another customer, .. while making myself available to the general public. Also the difference between service skills and crafting is that with crafts I can do it on my own time. Customers give me an order, I process and deliver it when I have time. I don't have to linger around town to do that. But maybe I didn't understand the service skills when they were presented.

edit: I completely agree with Foxeye, I would have quoted that post too, if it had been there when I posted

 

[PrestoAdam]

Originally posted by Andira@Jun 23 2006, 10:26 AM
I guess there are also the service skills like lockpicking or item identification, but those seem to force me to sit around in town announcing my business, which I don't find a lot of fun. I have done it in AO, but I much more enjoyed the system in EQ2 where I can just put my "looking for work" sign on, go harvest, do some solo quests, craft for another customer, .. while making myself available to the general public. Also the difference between service skills and crafting is that with crafts I can do it on my own time. Customers give me an order, I process and deliver it when I have time. I don't have to linger around town to do that. But maybe I didn't understand the service skills when they were presented.

Problem with the service skills is that, once again, they are something everyone can do.

Crafting is a means for a crafter to make a reputation for themselves because they can do something that few others can do. The bowyer makes bows. I want a bow. I go to a bowyer. In HJ, I want a bow. Anyone can make bows. I go to the AH and buy a bow and some Wyr and now I have a bow.

I predict that this lack of specialization will result in a Wyr commodities market that will boom, as well as a booming 'naked' item (empty Wyr slots) market. I will bet that the completed item market will be minimal, catering to those rich enough and lazy enough to want other people to do the gruntwork of buying naked items and Wyr, and combining them.

Unless I am seriously misunderstaning the 'crafting' system, this is one aspect of HJ that worries me.

P.S. Andira, welcome to the boards!

 

[Dyngo]

As I understand it, you can "overwrite" Wyr´s with other wyr´s.. so there shouldnt be any need to buy, as you call it, naked items.

Allthough, I have to agree... The market of Wyr´s will be interesting to see, or hear about. Will we be "forced" to upgrade our Wyrs to progress after levelcap? And how will it be possible to trade Wyr´s.. and so on

 

[MikeDold]

*Jon sneaks on to Mike's computer*

Correct me if I'm wrong, but can you not level up your weapons and armor?

So there would be no need to buy different items, except for if you wanted a hammer instead of a sword.

I think they should have crafting + Wyr crafting.

And when I say crafting, I don't mean manufacturing like WoW.

I mean crafting, you get the materials for a sword, you melt the ore, you pound the cooling metal and you CRAFT IT!

You...Craft...It

 

[Foxeye]

Originally posted by MikeDold@Jun 26 2006, 09:33 PM

And when I say crafting, I don't mean manufacturing like WoW.

I mean crafting, you get the materials for a sword, you melt the ore, you pound the cooling metal and you CRAFT IT!

You...Craft...It

*laughs*

Dude, you can't just walk up to crafters in all MMOs (not just WoW), say "What you are doing is now going to be called 'Manufacturing'. 'Crafting' shall from this day forth be simply the act of combining items", then use that as the basis for how HJ has crafting. Nevermind that it doesn't resemble what fans of crafting consider to be crafting.

That'd be like me saying that simply hurling verbal insults is essentially PvP (It is "player versus player" after all), and combat PvP is now call Kshmengling, and then saying MyCarebearMMO has PvP. We just don't have kshmengling. Who wants to kshmengle anyways. B)

 

[Seeria]

Might be a confusion there.... it was one of the devs of HJ that said "crafting" in other games is "manufacturing".... and that HJ will hmm think the wording was revolutionize how the industry sees "crafting" (or some such).

Hubby just mentioned that it was said somewhere that you can earn Hero points which allow you to upgrade or add why slots to items... something along that lines.

 

[Thea Nightwind]

Originally posted by Andira@Jun 23 2006, 01:26 PM
If everybody can do everything on their own, how would I be able to find my niche and be needed anymore? I wouldn't call that a crafting system. There is no interaction between people required, except maybe for acquiring the Wyr. It's just character development and customization. I'm not making stuff for others.

Well I for one would like to thank you and others who enjoy the crafting profession because its something that I have yet to find the ability to enjoy. That being said...

I find being able to purchase items crafted by other players to be a part of the immersion quality of the game. Having given it several tries i've always rather liked the fact that there are those who have the fortitude to do it.

So to all those who enjoy crafting, a very fond and sincere Thank You. You've made many a game memorable and special with the work you've done, a thing it seems left unspoken in the gaming world.

*/nod, then raises the glass to toast The Crafters*

 

[Seeria]

Here here!