The Value of Wyr

[Sabastian]

Originally posted by Morneblade+Jun 15 2006, 04:42 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Morneblade @ Jun 15 2006, 04:42 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-HJ-Zee@Jun 15 2006, 05:21 AM

First off, You're right. you haven't played a game made by Simutronics. I'll put it this way. 100,000 silver in Gemstone has nearly the same value now that it had in 1996. Perhaps even longer. Will this happen in HJ? I dont know. I'd like to think so but we'll see.

Does Gemstone or DR have to deal with Gold farmers? Or huge amounts of powergamers?

Very doubtfull.

But you will have to deal with them in HJ, if it is even a modest hit. So, that should be accounted for and it's going to require some tight control. Otherwise.......... [/b][/quote]
it's not the total number that hurts the economy as much as the ratio of say, "farmers to non farmers". It's also those non farmers proping up this activity, by buying gold. Yes GS and DR have these people. They also have a smaller base of players, so I bet the ratios are probably close to what you find in a game like WoW.

S.

PS. Gold farmers? Pssh. DR has to deal with Platinum farmers.

 

[Zee_CinVin]

Also keep in mind that in text based games it is fairly easy to simply create a script that does EVERYTHING for you. From hunting and picking up loot to moving back to town and selling lesser items and storing away more valuable items.

It is NOT, however, easy to get away with.

 

[HJ-Diviana]

Originally posted by HJ-Zee@Jun 15 2006, 10:05 PM
Also keep in mind that in text based games it is fairly easy to simply create a script that does EVERYTHING for you. From hunting and picking up loot to moving back to town and selling lesser items and storing away more valuable items.

It is NOT, however, easy to get away with.

MMOs have bots too though.

They're probably somewhat harder to make, but.. you can still get caught.


I script in DR, no lies, but I don't do it when I'm AFK. I do it for tedious things like foraging (YUUUCK) or stealing from shops (Again, YUUUCK).

But I always hunt by hand. That's one thing that will never change. I love killing things, and I don't think it would be satisfying if I was using a script.

 

[Morneblade]

Originally posted by Sabastian@Jun 15 2006, 09:02 PM

it's not the total number that hurts the economy as much as the ratio of say, "farmers to non farmers". It's also those non farmers proping up this activity, by buying gold. Yes GS and DR have these people. They also have a smaller base of players, so I bet the ratios are probably close to what you find in a game like WoW.

I don't know for sure, but I'd bet that GS or DR does not have professional Gold (or Plat) farmers. You know, IGE and the like. Most of the fairly major graphical MMO's do however, and the effects can be seen in all of them. These are not indviduals, but companies working around the clock. And if HJ caters to the powergaming crowd, you will see a higher % than if it doesn't. Now, if HJ becomse a major hit, expect for it to be even worse.

The best way to keep farmers out of the game is by not giving them a market. The best way to not give them a market is to allow most players to get things they need/want without farming or buying it on ebay. Sure, powergamers might be pissed because all their hard work dosen't equate to them being alot better equipped, but then they dont stick around very long anyways. So are they audience that HJ is targeting, or are they going after a more moderate playstyle in which people advance more slowly and try to enjoy the ride?

 

[Zee_CinVin]

Ahhh... IMO, Its all about the JOURNEY!

Super Secret Stealth Answers! h34r:

 

[Morneblade]

I think it should be as well. But the inherent problem is that MMO's have not been designed with that in mind. For example, here is a quote from Raph Koster, the former creative Director of SOE, responsible for most of the EQ expansions, SWG, EQ2, Planetside and was a major contributor to UO. He is considered one of the most respected, intelligent and creative minds in the business. And this is what he says about the "Journey".


"The journey is the reward is a f—–g lie

That’s my friend Bridget holding a cartoon I scribbled years ago at a MUD-Dev conference. She’s hung onto it all these years and still brings it to gatherings, even though it is getting a bit worse for wear.

The caption reads, “The journey is the reward” is a f-----g lie. (People would rather have the princess)."


And THAT is what we have had to deal with in MMO's. And that is what I'm sick of.

 

[JonDDA]

Hmm...well this post sort of went off topic...its a train with one set of wheels on track.

See, its not a matter of if there ARE power gamers, gold farmers and greedy greedy people, It IS a matter, however, if the power gamers, gold farmer, and greedy greedy people are put to use, if the people playing the game are having to consistently go to them for $$ bought gold and overpriced items.

If the players can be mostly self sufficient, and still have a good way to trade and interact with the economy, life is good.

In WoW, I always appreciated the RARE, and I repeat, RARE occasion when someone actually put an item up for it's real value, and not for how much the current going rate is. Let me stress how rare it was, It was so rare, that youd have a better chance of falling out of a plane, getting hit by a bus, being launched into the air and landing in a bed of roses than finding an item for it's real value.

 

[Gron]

In WoW, I always appreciated the RARE, and I repeat, RARE occasion when someone actually put an item up for it's real value, and not for how much the current going rate is. Let me stress how rare it was, It was so rare, that youd have a better chance of falling out of a plane, getting hit by a bus, being launched into the air and landing in a bed of roses than finding an item for it's real value.

-----------

Isn't value defined really by what someone will pay for it?

 

[Morneblade]

Originally posted by JonDDA@Jun 16 2006, 11:36 AM
Hmm...well this post sort of went off topic...its a train with one set of wheels on track.

See, its not a matter of if there ARE power gamers, gold farmers and greedy greedy people, It IS a matter, however, if the power gamers, gold farmer, and greedy greedy people are put to use, if the people playing the game are having to consistently go to them for $$ bought gold and overpriced items.

If the players can be mostly self sufficient, and still have a good way to trade and interact with the economy, life is good.

In WoW, I always appreciated the RARE, and I repeat, RARE occasion when someone actually put an item up for it's real value, and not for how much the current going rate is. Let me stress how rare it was, It was so rare, that youd have a better chance of falling out of a plane, getting hit by a bus, being launched into the air and landing in a bed of roses than finding an item for it's real value.

While semi off-topic, I think we're still in the ballpark, heh. You should see my guild, they will derail a thread in less than 4 posts, so this is actually doing well.

My concern is to have exactly what you are looking for. T"hat the average player can be mostly self sufficient" in terms of aquiring what would be considered lvl appropreate, while still having enough assest to aquire things like mounts or what have you when they become available, and larger investments such as houseing are quite manageable without alot of extra work involved. To the 2nd half of your statement "and still have a good way to trade and interact with the economy", I'm ok with that until it becomes exploited to a point where it affects the common player greatly. I'd much rather see the economy removed than one that is so out of control you cant afford anything unless you are a powergamer. and/or buy on Ebay.

Gron said "Isn't value defined really by what someone will pay for it?"
It's true.
And if you have powergamers running the economy, then the average player won't be able to participate eventually.

"Fair" prices will not exsist unless Simu controls the economy. Asking the players to do it is like asking Congress to regulate themselves. Go take a look at how that has turned out. Utter corruption....

 

[Zee_CinVin]

Let me ask you this Morneblade.

If you were creating an in game 'economy' in your perfect game. How would you do it?

I suppose what I'm asking is, you've found faults in some previous economies and I'm a bit curious as to what your ideal 'system' is like.

 

[Morneblade]

My "perfect" game would have no economy.
There would be no loot to speak of, Of course my game would be skill based, so that would have alot to do as to why.


After that, I guess I would have a closed economy, that would put the majority of
money sinks" on the upper 10% of the population in some way shape or form. Prices would be controlled by NPC's. Yes, you could sell items, but market value would be determined by the NPC's as they would also sell those items (like CoH). If you want to sell, you'll have to undercut the NPC's. It takes the control away from the players and into the Devs hands. No, You wouldn't be getting filthy rich in my perfect game. But basically stuff like basic housing would be provided (you could pay for upgrades, manisions, ect.) but you would pay a "luxury tax" on such things. That is how I would have it. No, I don't everyone to like it, but then again I don't expect every game to have the exact same set of features. Unfortunatly the for the most part, do.

A little variety is a good thing.

 

[Zee_CinVin]

Originally posted by Morneblade@Jun 16 2006, 11:59 PM
My "perfect" game would have no economy.
There would be no loot to speak of, Of course my game would be skill based, so that would have alot to do as to why.


After that, I guess I would have a closed economy, that would put the majority of
money sinks" on the upper 10% of the population in some way shape or form. Prices would be controlled by NPC's. Yes, you could sell items, but market value would be determined by the NPC's as they would also sell those items (like CoH). If you want to sell, you'll have to undercut the NPC's. It takes the control away from the players and into the Devs hands. No, You wouldn't be getting filthy rich in my perfect game. But basically stuff like basic housing would be provided (you could pay for upgrades, manisions, ect.) but you would pay a "luxury tax" on such things. That is how I would have it. No, I don't everyone to like it, but then again I don't expect every game to have the exact same set of features. Unfortunatly the for the most part, do.

A little variety is a good thing.

To your first idea. I personally would never play such a game. A game with no items to be found or sought after. No items to purchase from shops. Thats just me though, perhaps some people would love this.

Your second idea is harder for me to grasp. Are you saying to take away money from the richest 10% of the population in the form of money sinks and the like?

IMO you really should play one of the MUDS from Simu just to see how they've handled economies in the past. I'd recommend Gemstone because thats the one I play. But Dragon Realms is also a great game.

 

[Eve_CinVin]

I have a hard time following discussions on economy, as in trying to forsee how any type would affect the players, or gold farming.

 

[Morneblade]

I'll come back and post to clarify things in a couple days after I get through this hellish weekend that is leaving me with about 4 hours of sleep a day, and absolutely no braincells.

 

[Morneblade]

Ok, my brain has sufficiently recovered enough to take a stab at this. This is my "perfect" economy, not anyone elses. IN fact I expect for most people here to not like it much at all. That's ok. This is not trying to cater to lots of people, only me. Onward



Ok, my perfect game. I’ll focus on the economy since that is what was being asked and why it’s perfect for me.

First, I don’t “need” to have a carrot dangling in front of me all the time to push me to my goals like a mule. A lot of MMO players seem to have ADD and sound like Gollum from The Hobbit. GIMME SHINY! GIMME GIMME SHI…

*Slap*

Personally I’m much more interested in my skills (in a skill based system) as opposed to greed-fest or a game full of lewt-whoring, power gamer-wannabes that think the can pwn everyone, and rant constantly when they get their @$$ handed to them 9 times out of 10. They’re lame and my game won’t cater to them. I won’t even go into detail about gold farmers.

So, in my game, you supposed to be a freakin hero. So lets start you out equipped. You get stuff on character creation. You pick the items you want, and yes you can take things that don’t “fit” what your class would generally use. Gimp yourself if you like, or try out some master plan you have had working on for years. Now, you’ll only get a set number of items to start with, but enough to if you are a warrior, give you a full set of armor and a weapon. NPC’s will be in game to allow you to purchase additional items, including casual clothing.

My game would also start giving gold to low-mid level players at a greater rate than in most games. You will be able to purchase things like mounts without having to farm. Player housing will be available, and anything other than the basic house will need to have the upgraded plans purchased as well as materials. Won’t be cheap either. NPC blacksmiths will be in game to make your weapons, staffs, armor, robes, and leather more ornate and change the color, but cannot increase the effectiveness of them. They wont be cheap either. You want to go around looking like a Peacock; fine with me, but it will be expensive and wont give you and kind of an edge. My game is based on the skills you acquire and your skill as a player, not loot.

There is no crafting in my game. Crafters almost always have the upper hand in the relationship between Adventurers and Crafters and that disgusts me. I haven’t thought of a way that would make the crafter-adventurer relationship symbiotic that is not extremely tedious or unrealistic. And I hate crafting anyways.