The Value of Wyr

[Kretan]

Originally posted by frostydf2@Jun 12 2006, 04:25 PM
I have one question, why do people dislike it when someone is better then them? I still don't understand why you would want everyone to be equally rich, not have to work for anything, or have a fun economy. Part of an MMORPG is to gain an economic value. Look at Diablo 2, that was the funnest game just BECUASE of its economy.

I think the following quote echoed by many dissatisfied with the MMORPG is

#1. "I already have 2 jobs, gaming is supposed to be fun, not another job" (quoted from Mourne's post above, but certainly not the first utterance). Being forced into spending 10+ hours to have chance at a piece of equipment or spending hundreds of hours farming the gold to buy said equipment is boring and essentially a waste of time. To be honest with you, I'd rather see so called "uberness" not be related to any equipment at all, but rather based on class ability, level, ability to teamwork with other classes effectively. Not because of some goofy sword, amulet, etc.

#2 and slightly unrelated to the discussion... "The complete lack of "R" in MMORPG.

I personally stopped playing Diablo 2 because of its "fun" economy (among other reasons) and after giving WoW shot for about 8 months, I no longer will buy MMOGs from Blizzard.

I have high hopes for HJ because of Simu's slight to moderate dedication to RP in their various games. And the fact that they seem to have gone through an immense amount of trouble to add variation in just the character creation venue that it stands to reason that maybe the rest of the game may be similarly focused.

I really like the quote that has been bouncing about that a character can essentially use the same weapon he or she may have picked up at level 1 through his entire career. It gives a chance for tremendous roleplay with weapons (or other gear for that matter) passed down through the ages and are still effective at higher levels.

No one is asking for a Communist gold-sharing regime. But, many in this thread are asking for a "different" kind of economy that discourages gold-farmers, e-bay sellers, etc (if at all possible). This is a different kind of game (or so it is being touted as), it needs a different kind of economy.

 

[Morneblade]

Originally posted by frostydf2@Jun 12 2006, 04:25 PM
I have one question, why do people dislike it when someone is better then them? I still don't understand why you would want everyone to be equally rich, not have to work for anything, or have a fun economy. Part of an MMORPG is to gain an economic value. Look at Diablo 2, that was the funnest game just BECUASE of its economy.

*sigh*

You just don't get it Frosty. I'll try to explain one more time, after that I guess I'll just drop it and we can just agree to disagree on the subject and we can leave it at that. And still be buds.

Ok.... Just because you play more than say a person that only plays a few hours a week, DOES NOT MAKE YOU BETTER. It just means you play more. Nothing more, and you don't seem to understand that the 2 are not related at all. In reality you could totally suck. Skill has no merit at all in time played, or great gear. It's like saying you have a ton of money and go out and buy a great guitar and amp. Now all of a sudden you are a great guitarist? Hardly. You still cant play, you just got nice gear...............

I'm going to be blunt here. I'm a VERY good player, I've played games at a very high level for decades. I have a ton of experience AND skill. I've gone and done real competative PvP and enjoyed laying the smackdown on vastly superior numbers on a daily basis, in worse gear then they had. I 2-boxed in DAoC and was better than most of the players playing 1 toon. Basically, you get me going, I'm as bad as they come. h34r:

Like anyone should care? NO. Who gives a rat's @$$ if I could own you 50 ways to Sunday? I bet you don't, and I sure as heck don't. I never had a "ego" to keep inflated. But I see a ton of ego in new "new gamer". <_<


And, by defintion, games ARE NOT WORK. I already do that and get paid for my time, I'm sure as hell not going to PAY someone to WORK for them. Games are supposed to be something you do to help relieve pressures of the day, to relax to have fun, not to "head on out to the salt minds and grind away for another 8 hours". Um, less tedium, more fun, right? This is NOT Vangard. This is HJ, and if I wanted to play another EQ clone, I'd be at silky Venom chanting about the "Vision". But I'm not. I'm looking at HJ and I want to do something different, for a change.

Personally I don't give a hoot if you have gobs of money, as long as I can go out and get the things I need or want, without having to go out and farm. And I'll tell you why, and this has solely to do with that fact I've done it for years and years longer than you have Frosty (and no, it's not a flame at all in any way, read on).

I'm sick of it. Grind away in games for a decade, and come back and talk to me and tell me how much fun it is. I used not to mind it, 5 years ago. Hell, I two-boxed in DAoC. You want ultra-grind? Hah, if I had more PC's at the time, I probably wold have 3-boxed, I was so freakin good. And you wouldn't have been able to tell my 3 toons from anyone else, except that I was quiet and better on 3 than most on 1. Yes, I was a GOD!

Sounds lame doesn't it? Yeah, I agree.

Now, I'm 37 years old. I've done everything at a stupidly high lvl in for years in MMO's except for 1 thing.

Have fun, without needing to "work". OMG, what a concept!

Oh, and I never played D2, I played D on b.net and it was horid, because of the dupeing. <_<

Honestly Frosty, you want another EQ clone. There are tons on the market and in development. And I don't. That is why I want HJ. I hope it does away with alot ofhte material and problems from the EQ clones I've played for years. Alot of their ideas are going away drastica from making it "EQ#234463". And I love that. But you seem to want all the ideas from all those EQ clones, and HJ is trying not to be one. I hope.

 

[tasoli]

Originally posted by frostydf2@Jun 12 2006, 09:25 AM
I have one question, why do people dislike it when someone is better then them?

Communistic theory is nice, but Frosty is right. Deal with the fact that people are better than you because no matter what people do or say one person will always be better or worse off financially than another. Even when executed a communist government provides opportunities for those in power to gain more than those being goverend because of their influential position within the heirarchy. The same is true about Democracy, the leaders of the United States are supposed to be representing the will of the people, but do you truely believe they won't vote how a PAC or a lobbiest wants them to if they are supplied with some sort of a bribe under the table?

 

[Morneblade]

Hmm, I was under the impression that lobbiests controlling our govt. was not altogether a "possitive" thing. And once again, you want that, there are tons of other games that have just such a system in place. HJ is tyring to be different, remember.

And once again, money in no way, shape or form equates being better.

 

[Kretan]

Originally posted by tasoli+Jun 12 2006, 05:32 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (tasoli @ Jun 12 2006, 05:32 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-frostydf2@Jun 12 2006, 09:25 AM
I have one question, why do people dislike it when someone is better then them?

Communistic theory is nice, but Frosty is right. Deal with the fact that people are better than you because no matter what people do or say one person will always be better or worse off financially than another. Even when executed a communist government provides opportunities for those in power to gain more than those being goverend because of their influential position within the heirarchy. The same is true about Democracy, the leaders of the United States are supposed to be representing the will of the people, but do you truely believe they won't vote how a PAC or a lobbiest wants them to if they are supplied with some sort of a bribe under the table? [/b][/quote]
Not one message in this thread advocated anything of the sort.

The main idea is to have a game and its economy that is not based so harshly in grinding. I've not been at it as long as Morneblade, but eight years of grinding in these games is enough for me. Let's see something different. Alot of the suggestions seem to revolve around not being so gear centric...or grind-for-gear centric. You can still be rich and I can still be poor, but being forced in spending an exorbinate amount of time and energy just to find or buy one silly piece of equipment in order to be effective in end-game content (PVP or otherwise) is flat out boring. ((Having to "Raid" for it is another topic altogether.))

In fact, the most enjoyable time I've ever had is playing a pauper character in Gemstone. Had no money, modest gear, but was still quite successful in his goals and aspirations.


But, not one person advocated making HJ a commune. Not one.

 

[tasoli]

Originally posted by Morneblade+Jun 12 2006, 10:44 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Morneblade @ Jun 12 2006, 10:44 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> Hmm, I was under the impression that lobbiests controlling our govt. was not altogether a "possitive" thing. [/b]

Remind me, where did I say this?

<!--QuoteBegin-Kretan

Not one message in this thread advocated anything of the sort. [/quote]
Saying that people who work less should have as much as people who work more is the basic principal behind communism. Sure, no one used the word, but if you know what the word means...

Not to say that I'm against equality, but if you work harder than another person would you really want them to have the same stuff you have? Be it levels, items, wyr, whatever.

 

[Morneblade]

Originally posted by frostydf2@Jun 12 2006, 09:25 AM
I have one question, why do people dislike it when someone is better then them?

Communistic theory is nice, but Frosty is right. Deal with the fact that people are better than you because no matter what people do or say one person will always be better or worse off financially than another. Even when executed a communist government provides opportunities for those in power to gain more than those being goverend because of their influential position within the heirarchy. The same is true about Democracy, the leaders of the United States are supposed to be representing the will of the people, but do you truely believe they won't vote how a PAC or a lobbiest wants them to if they are supplied with some sort of a bribe under the table?

Right there.

And they do of course. Right now our"democratic" govt, is so undemocratic and corrupt is pretty disgusting.

But after "interrogating" a couple GM's in the HH IRC chatroom today, I feel pretty good about what they are planning.

 

[HJ-Diviana]

Lobbyist bribes needs to be made illegal, and that is it. Period.

You get caught, you're out.

 

[Daax]

Wow, this thread sure went off-topic.

 

[Morneblade]

Originally posted by HJ-Diviana@Jun 13 2006, 03:33 AM
Lobbyist bribes needs to be made illegal, and that is it. Period.

You get caught, you're out.

I completely agree.

*back on topic* ...

[ EDIT:

Sorry Morne, according to HJ staffers, the info you posted here is ... incorrect. Feel free to PM me or see me on IRC

~ Jaraeth
/EDIT ]

 

[Kretan]

Originally posted by Morneblade@Jun 13 2006, 03:43 AM

Take this with a grain or 2 of salt though. It was not a "official announcment" and we are a year away (or more) from release. Alot can change in a year, and since economics was not what either of the GM's are working on, it's more like "educated speculation". But it's the most concrete and reliable information I have heard so far.

Grain or two of salt taken.

Even if it is just a rumor (or whatever you want to call GM whisperings ) at least it makes it seem as if they are entertaining alternate ideas to the status quo. That is quite encouraging..... whether its true or not.

 

[Daax]

I'll take some of that salt as well. And I've also seen where you left your trail of replies and whatnot from your digging into HJ beta on other sites.

 

[Morneblade]

Originally posted by Daax@Jun 13 2006, 04:09 AM
I'll take some of that salt as well. And I've also seen where you left your trail of replies and whatnot from your digging into HJ beta on other sites.

Not sure what you ment by that Daax. But yes, I have been asking alot of questions in several different areas. Basically I want to educate myself as much as humanly possible to see if HJ is going to be a game I can play for years and really enjoy it. The last time I followed a game this closely was Horizons, and I got burned pretty bad on that one. Now, I sit back, ask a ton of questions, and try to keep things on a even keel.

 

[Daax]

I didn't mean anything bad by it. I've just seen where you've done your digging and am glad to see another so into the game.

 

[Morneblade]

Okies

 

[Ikiru]

I think Morne has a spam Wyr installed on his computer

 

[tasoli]

Originally posted by Morneblade+Jun 12 2006, 08:30 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Morneblade @ Jun 12 2006, 08:30 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-frostydf2@Jun 12 2006, 09:25 AM
I have one question, why do people dislike it when someone is better then them?

Communistic theory is nice, but Frosty is right. Deal with the fact that people are better than you because no matter what people do or say one person will always be better or worse off financially than another. Even when executed a communist government provides opportunities for those in power to gain more than those being goverend because of their influential position within the heirarchy. The same is true about Democracy, the leaders of the United States are supposed to be representing the will of the people, but do you truely believe they won't vote how a PAC or a lobbiest wants them to if they are supplied with some sort of a bribe under the table?

Right there.

And they do of course. Right now our"democratic" govt, is so undemocratic and corrupt is pretty disgusting.

But after "interrogating" a couple GM's in the HH IRC chatroom today, I feel pretty good about what they are planning. [/b][/quote]
But where did I say it's a positive thing? I just stated it's a fact- and a fact taht is not easy to argue with.

 

[crisisfox]

I practice wushu 2 hours a day.
My teacher practices wushu 8 hours a day.
My teacher is better than me.

ZOMG! They should nerf that guy! :angry:

Say there are 3 items that randomly drop on any monster killed anywhere. You want the purple one. You are uber good, so you kill 100 monsters an hour and play for 2 hours a day. A guy who's not that stellar kills 30 monsters an hour and plays 8 hours a day: who has a better chance of getting the purple item?

What wyr is likely to do is to make the drops more subjective. With a bonus and a drawback on each an ice mage will want different wyrs from a fire mage: which is cool! No matter what you do, the person who plays more and earns more money in-game will have an easier time getting *exactly* the set up they want, because they can just buy the wyr they want off other players.

 

[Morneblade]

Originally posted by tasoli+Jun 13 2006, 10:57 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (tasoli @ Jun 13 2006, 10:57 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

Originally posted by Morneblade@Jun 12 2006, 08:30 PM
<!--QuoteBegin-frostydf2

@Jun 12 2006, 09:25 AM
I have one question, why do people dislike it when someone is better then them?

Communistic theory is nice, but Frosty is right. Deal with the fact that people are better than you because no matter what people do or say one person will always be better or worse off financially than another. Even when executed a communist government provides opportunities for those in power to gain more than those being goverend because of their influential position within the heirarchy. The same is true about Democracy, the leaders of the United States are supposed to be representing the will of the people, but do you truely believe they won't vote how a PAC or a lobbiest wants them to if they are supplied with some sort of a bribe under the table?

Right there.

And they do of course. Right now our"democratic" govt, is so undemocratic and corrupt is pretty disgusting.

But after "interrogating" a couple GM's in the HH IRC chatroom today, I feel pretty good about what they are planning.

But where did I say it's a positive thing? I just stated it's a fact- and a fact taht is not easy to argue with. [/b][/quote]
Ok, so you didn't say it was a good thing, true enough. And I certainly agree with you that it is prevalent. But I did have a point. Why put something that is driven by greed, when all it's going ot do is becom corrupted?

Capitalist economies are basically based on greed, nad at this time our govt. as you said is run by those said companies, where big business has it's hand in everything. Greed is one of the 7 deadly sins, so why put it into something that is supposed to be "fun".

Like a game.

Considering the fact that it hasn't work in a game yet, no reason to think it's going to work this time. But it's looking like I wont have to worry about this, although it may make others not so happy.

 

[Dyngo]

The thing is, I have no problem with people "grinding" there days off, or become extremly rich in the game Im playing. Not at all.

But What I do mind, is if this interfear with other players "funfactor".

Let me give you an example from a game I played some time ago.
(lineage 2)

Player X Grind all day, all night and level up quick, and gain alot of ingame gold.
Player Y cant do that, but do it when he can, as there isnt very much to do.

Not much to do until the weekend, when the big PvP event start.

Player X can buy (or craft) a new über-weapon and RoXXor-armour and as its a itembased game he will win pretty much everything during that PvP-event.
Player Y cant afford anything and go with the felgercarb he can afford, and dont kill a thing. No matter how good he is in PvP, his dagger wont even scratch Player X´s armour.

Player X want to sell his old weapon, and as its the next step for player Y weaponwise, he asks Player X if he can buy it. But Player X bought it expensive and dont want to sell it too cheap, so Player Y cant afford it. So Player X sells it to Player X2, who also is a full time gamer. Even the second hand market stays between the "elite".

So what options do Player Y have? Craft? Yes, but as all regents needed is impossible to get without grinding all day and all night as you need thousands of regents. What does he do.. He buy ingame gold on e-bay or whatever, or stop playing (even though he kinda liked the game). He cant develop his character as he cant get the amount of gold that is needed to buy stuff, and those who got the time to become rich ruins the economy and makes the prices to high.

This is a very extrem example, but still it shows what could happen if developers isnt careful with game mechanics.

Ive seen alot of ways to try solve this problem. WoW made the Bind on pickup/equip thingy and increased the droprate on items instead. Works pretty good, but the game suddenly force you to do 40-man raids every day to develop you character, as its still a very itembased game. But still, you can become very rich in WoW, but it doesnt effect the casual players in the same way. But gamedevelopers only try to solve the problems halfway, instead of making drastic changes from scratch. For example leaving the "forced item upgrade"-system behind, or any other crappy old system we seen to much of allready

What Ive heard about HJ is nice in many ways, as it doesnt seem to be as item based as many other MMO´s are, and if the ingame time could be something else then just a hunt for better gear I will be happy.

And as the original question on this thread was all about; How will the WYR´s be handled? Will it end up in the "same old" hunt for a better one? If so, whats the point of having a "non itembased"-system if it ends up in a hunt for WYR´s instead? Or will this be sorted in a new way that is yet to be seen?

So Simutronics.. Isnt it time to let another "cat out of the box"?

((sorry if my english is felgercarb))