Season 4 Do you think it was a dream?

[gypsy_silk]

sorry to burst people's bubble, but this is jj and the alias writers we are talkin about, do you really think they would go through all that trouble just to make it a dream sequence?

[post="1356561"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]​

Exactly. There was a lot of foundation set for the car scene (Jack's luke-warm blessing, Irina's cryptic comments) and they wouldn't bother for just a dream. If any cliffhanger should have been a dream it should have been season 2's.

I can best explain why I think it's real by refuting the main arguments in favor of dream:

1) Syd looked / acted different.
Up to this point in the season we've pretty much only seen the two of them at work, where such "musy" behaviour is inappropriate. In private is another matter. As for Syd's hair, well, notice Vaughn was dressed nicely too, which makes sense. If you're going on a romantic vacation to Santa Barbara, you're not going to dress like a bum, even if you are usually more casual!

2) Theywouldn't take a vacation with Dixon / Nadia in the hospital.
By the lack of mention I think we can assume that Dixon is stable and recovering. As for Nadia, remember that Syd told Sloane that Nadia was stable but going to remain under sedation until they find an antidote, which at this point doesn't exist. So that means Nadia is going to be unconscious for a long time. There's nothing Syd can do by waiting around at her bedside - it would be pointless and she knows it. And remember, S/V just went through an almost-apocalypse . . . right now I think they are very aware of not putting off until tomorrow what you can do today.

3) Syd wouldn't want to elope when she asked Nadia to be maid of honor.
Yes, but Nadia isn't in a position to be maid of honor now is she? (See above point.) And I think it's totally in character for Syd. She's not a big showy type of person; what with SD-6's policy of spyin on their members she's probably become very protective of her privacy. And everything in Syd's life is complicated - and big weddings are very complicated. (I've been a bridesmaid 5 times, I know.) I think that she would totally want something simple, and sincere - just her and Vaughn on a beach. She has enough complicated things in her life.

4) Vaughn planned out how he was going to propose - don't you think he'd plan how he'd tell Syd his secret? [this was said on the rate the ep thread]
I think he was working in his mind on a way to tell her, but then Syd's whole "let's just elope" thing kind of sped up the timetable for him. He loves Syd, he doesn't want to lie to her, so I think it just kind of came out. He sounded kind of desperate to tell her and make her understand - which is totally how I would expect his character to feel in that situation.

And finally . . being a dream sequence really is a cop-out!

 

[Leslie]

A few thoughts...

1:  Sydney's hair isn't usually curly unless she is on a mission.  Actually it looked rather dream-like and romantic.  Away from work she is usually pretty un-done-up.  She actually looked like a dream version of herself, could it be?  :redhair:

2: if she wanted to elope, why would she tell Nadia that she was maid of honor?  

3:  What if this was her dream because she feels there is something Vaughn isn't telling her... but then, okay, it is not as bad as "Okay, for starters, my name isn't Michael Vaughn."    I mean, come on, after 4 years, that is just wrong.  Because if it is her dream, then it can be about her sense of things, and not what is real...

4:  Why would Syd and Vaughn go on vacation while Nadia and Dixon both are precariously hospitalized?  Even if they are happy that they got engaged, this does seem celebratory, and with two major cast members in the hospital, that does seem fishy. 

5:  Could Syd have learned something about Vaughn during her missing two years that was later erased from her memory, which now, appropriately with wedding jitters, would appear in the form of anxiety about him in her dreams? 

6: After S2 finale there was a lot of speculation that it was all a dream.  After going through that, we all expect it to be 100% real.  Could they have pulled a fast one on us, knowing we wouldn't expect it?

Right now I'm liking the dream theories better than anything else.   

[post="1356466"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]​

OK, seeing as the dream idea is in my own opinion the absolute WORST, here are some rebuttals I came up with. ^_^

1. Syd's hair is different in every single episode, and often changes many times during one ep. In addition, she is supposed to be on vacation and happy -- why not have fun with her hair? And we all know Jen has been curling her hair often enough just as an actress... Anyway I think hair style is a very weak excuse for a dream sequence.

2. She told Nadia she was maid of honor before the events of the episode. Now, of course, Nadia is incapacitated. Also, infected.

3. LOL "that is just wrong" never stopped JJ (see: Season 2 finale)

4. Their lives don't stop just because people are hospitalized. In addition, they justplayed a hands-on part in averting global destruction. Maybe they feel they're entitled? Or it could just be an overwhelming need to "get away from it all" (God knows I would...)

5. Yes but then that would make this a dream sequence, which JJ wouldn't do unless he was into overdone cliches.

6. Oh heck no. If anything it proves JJ won't stoop that low...

 

[xsydneyx]

I'm just going to toss this out here.. though I doubt it could be true

What happens if they were actually driving, and Vaughn was thinking about telling Syd the truth.. kinda daydreaming. While he was doing this, maybe he wasn't paying attention to the road, and thus, caused a car accident..

Yah, I realise its far fetched.. but maybe it will help spring up some better speculation in someone else's mind.

 

[elizabeth318]

i vote dream or something messed up because EVERYTHING about this scene was wrong

6. the crash... i mean come on people thats a little far fetched even for alias it was SO random

[post="1356508"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]​

I don't think the crash was that random for Alias. Let's say it's not a dream: Vaughn was the one who was hit, so he has some really big news to tell Sydney and now he could be in a coma and/or not remember so that they have that storyline to play aruond with next season with maybe Sydney hunting for the truth (possibly through her mom )

Assuming it is Vaughn's dream: Would it really be that much of a cop out? Irina hinted at somethin but if Vaughn actually dreamed it then he probably is really hiding something very big and serious, which would still make it an actual cliffhanger.

 

[Aliascrazii]

I highly doubt it is a dream because the other day I was reading this interview with JJ about Lost and he was discussing the idea of the whole island being Purgatory. His reaction was something like that would be almost as bad as saying it was all a dream. If he said this about one show then why in the world would he turn around and do it on his other?

 

[spydancer]

Don't get me wrong, I don't love the dream sequence idea either... but I thought that given how "dream turning into a nightmare" the whole sequence felt that it was a plausible theory worthy of some serious discussion. Not to mention the fact that clearly there are skeletons in (AFKA) Vaughn's closet... which doesn't make the whole thing a cop out... it could be just drawing us in to extend the suspense... As is true with almost all things Alias, there are many different ways that a situation can be interpreted... Was it a dream? Who knows. But I think, at the very least, it was meant to feel as though it could be a dream. Whether or not this was to throw us off track is impossible to say at this point.

 

[Leslie]

The fact that it was a dream -- and especially if you toss in that Irina's "warning" or whatever was ALSO a dream is probably the most far-fetched thing you could do, if you want to talk far-fetched. it's so contrived and lets the writers off the hook for so much, as well as totally deflates the "cliffhanger," that it would just be pathetic come 5.01.

 

[spydancer]

I highly doubt it is a dream because the other day I was reading this interview with JJ about Lost and he was discussing the idea of the whole island being Purgatory.  His reaction was something like that would be almost as bad as saying it was all a dream.  If he said this about one show then why in the world would he turn around and do it on his other?

[post="1356892"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]​

Nice point. Welcome, by the way. It is nice to see so many new members cropping up.

The fact that it was a dream -- and especially if you toss in that Irina's "warning" or whatever was ALSO a dream is probably the most far-fetched thing you could do, if you want to talk far-fetched. it's so contrived and lets the writers off the hook for so much, as well as totally deflates the "cliffhanger," that it would just be pathetic come 5.01.

[post="1356898"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]​

No, I don't think Irina's warning was also a dream. We do know, however, that he "may have her blessing" which serves to alleviate some concern over how bad this bad thing might be.

If it is indeed a dream, and Vaughn's then it seems reasonable to assume that it could have been prompted, either out of his own guilty or anxious conscience or at Irina' prodding.

How interesting that nobody else has come to him with similar advice at some time in the past. Around this group secrets never seem to keep for very long...

If it is Syd's dream, it would fit well with earlier episodes revolving around her fear of being betrayed by Vaughn. I kind of liked the idea of it being her dream, because it could be caused by an overall feeling that he was not telling her everything... but also they could reopen the missing two years, and maybe she learned something about him but it was erased from her memory only to resurface in her subconscious now as they plan to get married...

 

[MissingSark]

1. Syd's hair is different in every single episode, and often changes many times during one ep. In addition, she is supposed to be on vacation and happy -- why not have fun with her hair? And we all know Jen has been curling her hair often enough just as an actress... Anyway I think hair style is a very weak excuse for a dream sequence.

2. She told Nadia she was maid of honor before the events of the episode. Now, of course, Nadia is incapacitated. Also, infected.

3. LOL "that is just wrong" never stopped JJ (see: Season 2 finale)

4. Their lives don't stop just because people are hospitalized. In addition, they just played a hands-on part in averting global destruction. Maybe they feel they're entitled? Or it could just be an overwhelming need to "get away from it all" (God knows I would...)

[post="1356820"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]​

I agree exactly. I think some people are over-analyzing that scene out of their love for (Not) Vaughn because people are automatically assuming that he's bad.

I can see the possibilities of it being a dream, but I really don't think that it was. I would prefer that it wasn't a dream. That's so tired.

 

[Leslie]

Don't forget not to double post!

Excellent and happy observation, Aliascrazii. I will cling to that. Thank God JJ isn't that silly...

No, I don't think Irina's warning was also a dream.  We do know, however, that he "may have her blessing" which serves to alleviate some concern over how bad this bad thing might be.

Which means? ... I'm confuzzled...

If it is Syd's dream, it would fit well with earlier episodes revolving around her fear of being betrayed by Vaughn. I kind of liked the idea of it being her dream, because it could be caused by an overall feeling that he was not telling her everything... but also they could reopen the missing two years, and maybe she learned something about him but it was erased from her memory only to resurface in her subconscious now as they plan to get married...

[post="1356902"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]​

Been there, done that ("Nocturne"). I for one hope the missing two years is a closed case. I never wanna see it again.

 

[vartan-lova]

1:  Sydney's hair isn't usually curly unless she is on a mission.  Actually it looked rather dream-like and romantic.  Away from work she is usually pretty un-done-up.  She actually looked like a dream version of herself, could it be?  :redhair:

it did seem unusual, but if she was on vacation with vaughn maybe she wanted to look really nice and she had time to do her hair so why not

2: if she wanted to elope, why would she tell Nadia that she was maid of honor?  

i wasnt paying a whole lot of attention at this point- actually i was making brownies in the kitchen- but i thought she said she didnt want a maid of honor or something like that.

3:  What if this was her dream because she feels there is something Vaughn isn't telling her... but then, okay, it is not as bad as "Okay, for starters, my name isn't Michael Vaughn."    I mean, come on, after 4 years, that is just wrong.  Because if it is her dream, then it can be about her sense of things, and not what is real...

i dont remember them telling us that syd knows theres something he's not telling her. and remember, irina knows too so i dont think it can really be a dream unless the irina/vaughn scene earlier in the ep was a dream too or somehow didnt happen

4:  Why would Syd and Vaughn go on vacation while Nadia and Dixon both are precariously hospitalized?  Even if they are happy that they got engaged, this does seem celebratory, and with two major cast members in the hospital, that does  seem fishy. 

they never gave us a time, this could be a few weeks later, maybe even a couple months later

5:  Could Syd have learned something about Vaughn during her missing two years that was later erased from her memory, which now, appropriately with wedding jitters, would appear in the form of anxiety about him in her dreams? 

again, this secret thing came up earlier with irina so i dont think that really works

6: After S2 finale there was a lot of speculation that it was all a dream.  After going through that, we all expect it to be 100% real.  Could they have pulled a fast one on us, knowing we wouldn't expect it?

even tho we were expecting it to be real, JJ (along with most other producers) would never have the cliffhanger of the season finale be a dream. thats just too easy and it would actually be pretty pathetic if they had to resort to a dream for a cliffhanger.

vaughn not really being michael vaughn: the good guy, does make things a lot more complicated. like, what about his dad, william vaughn? he didnt just make all that up or just pretend that he was his father. and i think they wouldve found out in all those years who he really is. i mean, come on this is the CIA. but im sure there are explanations for all those things cuz im sure this isnt a dream.

6. the crash... i mean come on people thats a little far fetched even for alias it was SO random

im not sure i agree with her, but my sister thinks the crash might have been planned. by like bad guys or w/e. it does seem far-fetched but if it was planned that might make it make a little more sense.

 

[cupcake55]

WOW!!! was like in total shock when i watched the end. i just like started watching it this season, so i had to go buy all the dvds to catch up, but anyway it had to be a dream or something. It just didn't seem real.
1) Sydney did not seem like her usual self. i mean the hair, i dont think it's been curly all season.
2) With nadia and Dixon sick and evil Sloane back, the CIA wouldn't jsut let their 2 best agents leave. i mean everyone knows that anything can happen.
3) Even though Vaughn might not actually be Vaughn, you can still see that he loves Sydney and theres no way he would tell her that he's not him so coldly and in a car of all places.
4) To just have them randomly hit by a car, come on they are CIA agents they no better to watch everything and to expect the unexpected.

And i guess the same goes for all of us, we should know by know that we should always expect the unexpected from JJ!!!!

 

[jadeygirl]

The whole car ride being a dream was my first thought but I do
think it would be pretty lame. Its been done so many times before!!

However, there are some things that seemed odd even though they are
newly engaged and they could have just be incredibly happy.
It just seemed very dreamlike and perfect.
Syd's hair was curly, she was wearing white and they were driving along
this beautiful road.
First she says I love you and he says say it again.
Then he says I love you and she says say it again.
The way she kept looking at her ring and touching his face.
All seems out of character and too sappy for them.
Also, I can't see Syd wanting to elope after waiting so long to marry him.

One thing that bothered me was the way he told her. It seemed so casual.
I mean this is HUGE if he isn't who he says he is and he told her after 5 years
and an engagement. They were driving in the car and it was almost like
telling her something like "By the way, I'm a little older than you thought I was".

I think someone already mentioned this but maybe the whole thing wasn't a
dream and they were driving to Santa Barbara and Vaughn was daydreaming.
He wasn't paying attention and they were actually hit.

Like I said, I think they could come up with some better than a dream.

 

[vartan-lova]

One thing that bothered me was the way he told her. It seemed so casual.
I mean this is HUGE if he isn't who he says he is and he told her after 5 years
and an engagement. They were driving in the car and it was almost like
telling her something like "By the way, I'm a little older than you thought I was".

i thought the same thing. but maybe he wanted to tell her in the car, b/c she couldnt kill him there cuz if she did it would be hard for her to take over control of the car and then they would crash and both die. maybe he thought it was safe there i dont know, but i definitely agree with you on that point

 

[jadeygirl]

One more thought, if it is a dream then it could have started after they
came back from Russia.

I thought it was a little odd that in one scene they were trapped in this
bunker with water coming at them and the next scene Vaughn was
walking out on the street. They were also the only four people in the
entire town. Did the water suddenly receed and they just walked out??

 

[spydancer]

i wasnt paying a whole lot of attention at this point- actually i was making brownies in the kitchen- but i thought she said she didnt want a maid of honor or something like that.

Actually they were talking about the sense of dread they both felt and Syd mentioned that Vaughn had asked her to marry him... and then she said something -probably referring to this prophecy about the two of them battling- about how she was not planning on killing her maid of honor. Not exactly iron clad proof that she wouldn't elope, but it is evidence that she might have wanted her family present.

I dont remember them telling us that syd knows theres something he's not telling her. and remember, irina knows too so i dont think it can really be a dream unless the irina/vaughn scene earlier in the ep was a dream too or somehow didnt happen

No they didn't tell us that she knows there's something he's not telling her, I was just trying to make the point that if it is/was her dream, then maybe she sensed something was off, or there was something he wasn't telling her. It would sort of revisit that whole "fear of betrayal" thing. S/V always seemed to have a sense about each other - from my perspective - I remember when he was her handler, there was always that puzzled, "What are you not telling me" look that would pass over her (or in some cases him) when one or the other was not being completely straight about a particular situation.

im not sure i agree with her, but my sister thinks the crash might have been planned. by like bad guys or w/e. it does seem far-fetched but if it was planned that might make it make a little more sense.[/B

If it was not a dream, I'm positive the crash was planned. No doubt in my mind

Leslie Posted Today, 02:04 PM
  QUOTE(spydancer @ May 26 2005, 03:37 PM)
No, I don't think Irina's warning was also a dream.  We do know, however, that he "may have her blessing" which serves to alleviate some concern over how bad this bad thing might be.

Which means? ... I'm confuzzled...

Only that Irina's warning to Vaughn was not itself a dream.

jadeygirl Posted Today, 02:31 PM
First she says I love you and he says say it again.
Then he says I love you and she says say it again.
The way she kept looking at her ring and touching his face.
All seems out of character and too sappy for them.
Also, I can't see Syd wanting to elope after waiting so long to marry him.

Yes, the whole of the scene had a dream like and romantic feeling. However, given what Syd and Vaughn have been through, we've gotten used to them being kind of serious... their relationship rocky at times... This could be the first time we've seen them really happy in a long time. Actually I remember them (back in the day - S2) as being very affectionate with each other. They just never said "I love you," over and over again.

 

[AgentBlueEyes]

I don't think it was a dream......but if it was a dream, then it gave me the biggest heart attack ever!

 

[emotionalrescue]

Hey...remember JJ Abrams did a show called Felicity...he made like the whole last half of the final season a dream sequence. People died, and s*** happened that you were like OMG...and then it turned out she just had a really high fever and dreamed it all. Maybe he is going to do something like that...and Sydney is still away being Julia Thorne, and she dreamed all that stuff???? Huh??? Could happen...just maybe.

 

[Sydney L Bristow]

well I don't think it's a dream, don't get me wrong a lot of the response did make me stop and think for a moment or two, but then I was like NAAAA!

In my head the reason why it was all dreamy was because they almost died and just got engaged and who's to say that that is not how they really are... I mean Syd must have been saying she loved him for a while now because last night When she asked if she ever told him that she loved him I expected him to say "Umm NO!" but he acted like she say's it all the time. plus who wouldn't do their hair up all cute if they were going on their first get away since never! She wanted to look hot for him, maybe he mentioned once that he liked her hair wavy like that after a mission that they had went on.

and telling her about his secret in the car makes sence, any where else he risked the chance of her blowing her top and walking away with out an explanation, which is what she does every time she learns something strange, She gets mad and storms off before getting a rational explanation, "Vaughn" knows this and probably found this to be his best solution, to forcing her to stay and listen to every thing he has to say!

So I am against the dream thing, *Sniff, * sniff even if it is the easier way of dealing with our shocking news!

and another thing:

jadeygirl Posted Today, 02:31 PM   Also, I can't see Syd wanting to elope after waiting so long to marry him.

my opinion on the whole eloping thing, is that it is totally in character, she has waited for so long to be married to "Vaughn" not to have a wedding with him in it! They will have to wait months maybe even years to actually get married if they plan a big wedding, even a small one. I’m sure because of all that the two of them have been through, she just wants to get it over with and become "Mrs. Vaughn", before something else happens to keep them apart. We all know Syd isn't into material things, so why would getting married be any different?

 

[Aliascrazii]

Even though I have denied it all these responses have got me thinking. This is what I came up with. I realise that the whole scene (I've seen it over again since my last post) is kinda dreamy and too perfect, but I think that is probably to make the shock of "Vaughn" suddenly coming out with the whole thing even more amazing. I mean if they had been at Syd's apartment worrying bout Dixon and Nadia, it wouldn't have been nearly affective. I think we were supposed to get the idea everything was perfect (finally) so that they could really wham us with the idea that...no it's not!