Hero's Journey should not....

[frostydf2]

Mourneblade, in my opinion you need to find some middle ground. We need to make up political parties for the difference of opinions we have here. Watchmaker, cough cough.

This is where I need to build off of your post. Mourne it seems you don't want any sort of large reward at the end of the game to give other players an advantage over others. Why not? I believe that the previous MMO's have made it so you HAVE to have the end-game to be competative, or the only thing to work towards. Thats where they failed. Hero's Journey should go for the same goal, but relax a bit on it. Make it so you can constantly compete in the game without the end content, but still have the incentive to reach max level.

Give advantages to those who go the extra effort, and have played longer. Don't make everyone equal, and make this a socialistic economy. Being competative is what makes games great, if you take out any incentive to trying to be better than others, than this probably wouldn't be the game for me.

I'm not sure if my ideas came off clearly to everyone else, I'll take my shot at it again later.

 

[Evran]

Give advantages to those who go the extra effort, and have played longer. Don't make everyone equal, and make this a socialistic economy. Being competative is what makes games great, if you take out any incentive to trying to be better than others, than this probably wouldn't be the game for me.

I don't think he's being quite this extreme. I can see where he's comning from, though, based on DR. There is no max level in DR. Its completely open-ended so end-game content is a moot point (although there is kind of a soft cap that no-one has come close to reaching on the main server yet). And it works well. There is still tons of competition for special items (trust me on this one, the conflict boards are certainly not dead by any means ) but they aren't required by any means and are more status symbols than anything else. And nothing is handed out easily. You do have to work for it, for example, by earning enough cash to out-bid someone at a GM auction.

I, as I think Morneblade does as well, think it is directly tied to the fact that there is no XP as most games have. You get better by doing the skill you want to get better at. Level is a secondary effect that happens to come along once you're skilled enough. For example, in all MMOs I've seen, killing a monster gives you x amount of experience leading to grinds where you kill as many as you can in an attempt to gain XP. In DR, the death of the monster is meaningless in of itself. Its what you did before and do after the monster dies that makes you better. You used your sword, cast a couple spells, and then skinned the monster when in died, and so you became better at doing all three. In fact you could never even kill the monster and still gain tons of skill from it, if you were paitient enough not to make a killing blow.

I think its simply a difference of backgrounds thats at issue here. Its hard to imagine a game where the level factor is greatly reduced if you only eer played a game that is all about level. And it can be frustrating for those of us who know it works see people say that it couldn't. It can and does work, it just remains to be seen to what extent Simu decides to include it in HJ.

And as far as socialist economies go, Simus offering of Ticketed Events certainly prove that they most certainly don't use a socialist economy. You gotta pay RL cash for that stuff! Talk about capitalism at its finest. :rolleyes2:

 

[z80]

Frosty, I don't think there is anything wrong with having ways for achievement oriented players to become statistically better than others. That's fine. As long as there isn't just one activity (such as only the big long raids) that allows it. If there are multiple paths to equal power then I'm all for it. Otherwise it becomes just another raidfest that only truly caters to one playstyle and asses out everybody else. They should have ways for all of the major playstyles to achieve as well and not just the raiders.

But really no matter how you slice it. When they make uber items out of the reach of the average player those items become required when pvp is involved. This forces everybody (who wants to pvp on equal footing) to do the very thing they find most boring. Not a big deal when there are multiple paths to the uber gear (or wyr). A bit off topic but I loved how in Deus Ex you had 3 ways to handle most situations. There was brute physical force, stealth, and hacking.
The fact thet there was multiple ways to get stuff done allowed the game to leave fewer players assed out (yes I realize it was only a one player game but you get the point). I'm not at all trying to make the game easy, just unboring.
Doing things the eq/wow way will reduce hj to a clone with better dressup features. Do you really want just another eq/wow clone with better dressup features? I don't.

Imagine for a moment how raiders would feel if the endgame consisted of long boring volleyball tournaments with npcs that lasted hours and only 10% of the player group won any loot at the end. Volleyball fans would be wetting themselves with joy. But people that found hours of repetitive volleyball boring would be assed out and frustrated. Well, that's how games are now. Just replace volleyball with raiding. We have enough of those types of games and something different would be greatly appreciated by those who are fed up with the "raid or quit" mentality that plagues the popular fantasy mmorpgs out now. I think you would absolutely love Vanguard. It's another eq/wow raid or quit game with extreme forced grouping to boot. (not knocking vanguard as I intend to play it as well, I like the flying mounts, seamless world and real player housing and boats it offers, just saying based on this post, you want to keep it old school...vanguard will keep it old school.) Basically I mostly agree with Morne. Our biggest disagreement is our stance on huge "phallic symbol" weapons. I want 'em.

 

[Eve_CinVin]

You're good, z80, very well done post! I think most of the tetosterone filled competition with guys comes from mine is bigger than yours. And it has more pull for some guys than others, perhaps the ones who feel the most insecure. <ducks>

Anyway, yes, I do hope HJ has more sandbox activities for those of us who like to enjoy the journey, and rewards for more than just whoever has the biggest club. You can spell fun in many different ways, so as much as possible, I hope there is fun for everyone.

The balance for that would be a huge undertaking, one like SWG used to have before they messed it up. They had no endgame, so I guess the only challenge for powergamers was in becoming Jedi. But then that lost it's luster when they discovered it didn't mean much. It happened with Bounty Hunters too. In other words, the developers had a possible winner on their hands, but they didn't have the needed ideas on what to do with the higher levels. So they reverted to the tried and true clone of other games, and lost most of their players.

I see most games trying to find ways for players to compete, but none have hit on a good balance yet for powergamers and casual players. As for Vanguard, it has it's fans, but I think a lot of people will be disappointed in that game. Why go backwards when we need to go forward. That's my view.

 

[Morneblade]

Mourneblade, in my opinion you need to find some middle ground. We need to make up political parties for the difference of opinions we have here. Watchmaker, cough cough.

Hey, I played all the "raidfest" games Frosty. Do I want to play one again? No. If HJ turns into one, I'll simply not play it, and look to something else.

This is where I need to build off of your post. Mourne it seems you don't want any sort of large reward at the end of the game to give other players an advantage over others. Why not?

Couple of reasons. First, It's been done by many MMO's I dont like it, alot of other players dont like it. They DO NOT PLAY TO COMPETE. They play for other reason, like to relax, have fun and do not want to play a game that does not cater to them, as most MMO's cater to only powergamers.

I believe that the previous MMO's have made it so you HAVE to have the end-game to be competative, or the only thing to work towards. Thats where they failed. Hero's Journey should go for the same goal, but relax a bit on it. Make it so you can constantly compete in the game without the end content, but still have the incentive to reach max level.

Ok, first you say, that previous MMO's fail because they make it so you have to "work", but that HJ should be the same thing? Only you dont have to "work" as hard? Then you say make it so you can do all the things others can (compete) but still have insentive to max out.

Ok, this really doesnt make sence to me. You're basically condraticting yourself here Frosty. I'm going to tell you how I feel personally about this. First, I dont NEED a carrot to max out. I WANT to do that, period. Remember Frosty, I've been a powergamer for years. I want to be able to do EVERYTHING. Including max out. Loot, other than the fact that I NEED it to compete has never been a insentive. SOme pople need that. I dont. MOst games cater to that, I dont want to play them anymore. Cant a get a game where I DONT HAVE TO DO THAT? Yes, lets find some middle groud.

Give advantages to those who go the extra effort, and have played longer. Don't make everyone equal, and make this a socialistic economy.

So, your saying if you dont get the game on day 1 of release, your screwed? Or the person with no job is better than the guy that works and has a family? Or that this is work, not play? Or that it is better to try and rip off everyone, as opposed to just having fun? There are alot of fundamental flaws in most MMO's to my opinion. LIke trying to win in a game that there is no winner.

Being competative is what makes games great,

To me its not. A game being FUN is what makes it great. Only that.

if you take out any incentive to trying to be better than others, than this probably wouldn't be the game for me.

Understandable, and if HJ ends up like every other MMO, it would not be the game for me. Like Vanguard. However I'm not over there tying to make Vanguard a more casual game. I'm here trying to keep HJ "more fun less tedium". I always asked you why you were not over watching Vanguard because it looks to be a game that is right down your alley. You never gave me a answer to that. However, if HJ turns into another clone, I'll simply leave the community, not buy the game and hope to find something else that will fit my playstyle. And "better" in a MMO usually has nothing to do with skill, only how much you play.

I'm not sure if my ideas came off clearly to everyone else, I'll take my shot at it again later.

I'll quote Matt Firor, who just recently left Mythic to take some time off and do some other things. He was the Producer for DaoC from the beginning, and oversaw all of Mythics' titles. Here is what he says about dev's listening to powergamers:

MMORPG.com:What to you is the biggest mistake you see MMORPG companies/investors making?Matt Firor:Honestly? Making bad, overcomplicated games. MMOs are about losing yourself into a new community; being able to meet friends, slay monsters, and feel like you're part of something bigger than your everyday life. It doesn't have to be over-designed, over-produced, have the most insane graphic requirements, etc. It just has to be fun and make people want to log in and experience it. Too many MMOs fall into the trap of being designed for a small group of loud hardcore enthusiasts.

 

[Eve_CinVin]

LOL, I was just going to post that quote, Morne, because I think it's right to the point.

 

[Thaos Nightwind]

I'll quote Matt Firor, who just recently left Mythic to take some time off and do some other things. He was the Producer for DaoC from the beginning, and oversaw all of Mythics' titles. Here is what he says about dev's listening to powergamers:

MMORPG.com:What to you is the biggest mistake you see MMORPG companies/investors making?Matt Firor:Honestly? Making bad, overcomplicated games. MMOs are about losing yourself into a new community; being able to meet friends, slay monsters, and feel like you're part of something bigger than your everyday life. It doesn't have to be over-designed, over-produced, have the most insane graphic requirements, etc. It just has to be fun and make people want to log in and experience it. Too many MMOs fall into the trap of being designed for a small group of loud hardcore enthusiasts.

Yeah, and this is a sad state of affairs. Now it seems to me that the time required to be "hardcore" like that would tend to reflect an age group/demographic. Lets face it. There are probably not too many unemployed peeps out there willing to pay $15 a month, with 12-14hr days/nights for gaming unless we're talking crumb santchers with Mom & Dad's credit card. To me these are the "loud hardcore enthusiasts" and they probably form the bulk of any MMO fanbase. I theorize that it is they who are dictating devoloper policy via gaming forums etc.

As a result the gaming industry has this sort of problem. It does not bode well with with those who see the lost, rather negelected, potential that lies untapped in the gaming industry. Mr. Firor sees that, thus his quote. Games have been developed and/or altered to satisfy these "enthusiasts" so the $$ keeps rolling in.

I cannot be the only person with some $6-700 worth of dormant Single Player FPS's and MMO's culled over the last 6-7yrs at $30-$50 a pop sitting on my desk gathering dust owing to the fact that I can no longer tolerate such overbloated grindfest? Oh I think not.

I theorize that HJ, via research and experience; knows that there is a potentially HUGE!!! untapped market of folk in my shoes and rather than develope a game catered to the hardcore powergamers; they're developing towards the imaginative. Something thats been neglected in favor of the almighty dollar. Just look at Jaraeth's post on what happened with DAoC. They had to create three 'classic' servers to keep customers fed up with this sort of thing.

I hope HJ doesn't cave like this. Stick to your guns HJ!! I'm waitin' (and i'm not alone).

Now, who took my CheezIts and Root Beer off my desk?

 

[Daax]

wasn't me...

>_>

*runs away*

 

[Luciro]

HJ should not.. Base clothing options on gender. Nothing funnier than a drunk pirate wearing a dress and heels...
HJ should not.. Put throw their money away players on the same severs as folks who like to pay the norm and earn their perks. F*CK teired pricing.
HJ should not.... Make the game play too easy. Seriously, make the mobs tough. I know you guys are going for the paid too much rich kid hand everything to them crowd, but make the fights tough. Come on.
HJ should not........ Take Steph's advice for not putting surprises into the game. So what if a jumpy chick fell out of her chair seeing a character turn into a walking chair. Easter Eggs rocks.
HJ should not.. Promote ticketed events as the only way to get custom quest content. Why? 2005 and it's closing had me thinking we'd get content like that by paying the actual subscription. 2006 and closing it looks like you're paying your basic subscription to watch other folks have fun and do CoH/V inspired quests over and over and over in a very tedious manner.
HJ should not... Keep promoting their catering the RP crowd felgercarb. I don't believe it now.
HJ should not... Let their devs think they can charge ticket prices for celebrity devs. That just doesn't seem ethical.
HJ should not.. Keep turning into EQ clone. Yeah, even with combo classes and proposed fun quests. Seriously EQ ish. Okay so I can look how I want while playing EQ? Meh.
HJ should not..... DISREGARD those of us who freaking like hand to hand melee fighters. Seeing that stuff get dropped but seeing freaking 'ranger' and 'bard' make it? Bulls*it.
HJ should not.... Hire anymore folks. They're paying how many forum trolling dips to create quests? No wonder they're wanting to over charge.

 

[deserttfoxx]

Heros journey should not.. skimp on the customization, add a wide variety of melee weapons, as well as clothing options, if i wanna get a japanese katana i should be able to find it, maybe even something advanced , like a tri section staff..(that may be too advance )

Heros journey should not.. make ticketed events the focus of good content, to me i will see it as a bait and switch, forcing us to pay more to do more.

Heros journey should not.. go through with teired pricing all together, it is lame, in all respects.

Heros journey should not.. force raiding to achive good wyr, moderate grouping should be enough, as in 5-8 people with a lengthy chain quest should be more rewarding then 50 players and 5 hours of preperation and 20minutes of actually fighting.

Heros journey should not.. have linear combat like city of heros, world of warcraft , everquest 2 and basically any mmo out htere to date, i dont care for grind grind grind, dungeon grind, grind grind grind, dungeon grind, raid. I wanna make full use of that journey system, and spend form levle 1-whatever max level is, devoloping my story if i so choose to do so.

Hero's journey should not.. skimp on the interactive enviorment, i wanna see if someone casts fire wall while its raining the rain actually putting it out.

Heros journey should not.. be lazy like games today and reuse the same skills just change the name, i hate seeing that, it is so lame, i donnt want rogues and warriors to share skills with just different names, or wizards being the same as necros.

Heros journey should not.. skimp on the character skills, and magic attacks, there should be a wide array of learnable skills, hidden skills, unlockable skills with certain wyr combinations.

Heros journey should not... Have upgrades looks the same as their base skills, if i get Master lightening bolt, it shouldnt look exactly the same as apperntice lightening bolt, besides a damage upgrade, people should be able to see the difference. same goes for melee skills too.

heros journey should not.. have some lame ass pvp system like warcraft, if i wanted to wait inline i would goto a theme park, have pvp zones, with level caps, so players can just walk in and jump into some player vs player combat.

Heros journey should not.. make combat just double click and watch, like most games, lets have some interactive combat, trick skills, mobs smart, running, calling for backup, hell even pretending to run so they can lure you somewhere more in their favour.. like a water mob running into the ocean so it can amplify its attacks.

Heros journey should not.. be afaird to get on the forums during beta and have active conversations about what works, what doesnt work, what needs improvment, lets make use of irc, and make sure the community along with the devs help make this game as great as it can be.

 

[Jaraeth]

I pretty much agree with what's being said, and since I am late at returning to read the forums, I just can't soak it in all at this time.

I don't want HJ to require me to think about how I'm going to spec, or what Wyr I'm absolutely going to have to find and use at end game.

I don't want HJ to be all about the end game... what about the start and middle? where's the fun?

As Morne stated before, SWG *was* great for that... I played those crafters who would pay the fighters to reap the butt loads of skins and stuff. I used the fighters as escorts & body guards to help get me materials,.... every step of the way. My crafter was always level 1. There were no levels, just stages of development & knowledge.

However, unlike Morne, I don't want a game based on my personal skill. I do see his point about how a person gains personal skill as they learn the game, etc... but, mine... is minimal. I simply *cannot* play a twitch game where I'm required to move my mouse fast over a screen, and click .. a lot. This is one aspect of HJ that scares me... if I'm trying to cast a fire wall, and I have to draw the line/arc/circle for a firewall? I'll end up drawing a dot, cuz my mouse likes to double click for me. I don't want something based on how fast, or how good I am with my mouse skills... if I wanted that, I'd play FPS or flight sim's ... and did I mention how much I suck at click fests? yeah... terrible, and worse than terrible.

So, I hope there's a happy medium... I don't want to have to think fast. Sadly, I must admit, I do not think fast. Period. Maybe it's my age, but I don't think so... I know folks that are 45 and 55 (10-20 years older than me) and they think twice as fast as me... if I think fast, I trip...

Add that to the "i don't want HJ to be..." list. :-S

~ Jaraeth

 

[deserttfoxx]

You bring up a good point that i cant belive i missed Jaraeth, i absolutly hate the idea of "specs" And being for to min max or gimp your character.That was always lame to me in everygame, especially warcraft, make 3 talent trees for all classes knowing full well one tree would be utterly useless but force people to take skills form that treee anyway.

Heros journey should not.. even think about adding specs in any way, I hope heros journey has so many unique wyr and wyr combinations that people cant even talk about good builds even if they tried.

Heros journey should not.. add fluff wyrs, i dont wanna get any useless wyrs.. no trash drops, every wyr should be wanted by someone in some shape or form, whether it be for crafting or sale to another person, none of this "grey" loot ment expressly for venders.

Heros journey should not.. make crafters feel like a npc merchent, making a bunch of craptacular vender loot to level up, i wanna craft something and brand it if i so choose, people should know i made it, because it has a signature and even a unique name, for example, i craft a steel longsword, add a fire wyr or whatever, and then i choose to change its name to "Shard of hell" that name should stay for all to see, even when sold and that wyr perminant, with my signature on the sword if people choose to inspect it.

About the combat, i am not sure how to help you there, maybe they could add a defualt casting line, for wall and aoe spells, that auto sets if you choose. Its a difficult thing, and until beta i simply cannot comment on what could or couldnt be done to help those without the reflexes to move sharp when the situation calls for it. I understand were your comming from though.
Drawing the attacks scared my GF too when i told her, he isnt for the fast paced action either heh.

 

[Kuzzle]

Yeah, I'm none too quick, either, but I don't think drawing a line will be my downfall. If it's implemented properly, you won't have to be extremely quick with it for it to work, just not all that slow, ya know?

I totally agree that they shouldn't add in useless Wyr, though my definition of "useless" is most likely very different from some people's. 'Course, what that means is anyone's guess... Actually, though, I'll probably end up using plenty on non-combat Wyr, provided they exist. But, yeah, items that serve no purpose other than just being random stuff to sell to NPCs suck.

 

[Pietoro]

I love fluff. 'Fluff Wyr' is fun to say, too.

But anyway; Wyr with stats so bad nobody would use it = bad. Wyr with strange stats that maybe do silly things just for entertainment value = good.

 

[z80]

I'm in favor of entertainment weird wyr.

 

[Durinthal]

I'm pretty much opposed to the endgame stuff being the primary acheivement as well.

Really, make a game using DragonRealms' existing experience structure and I'd jump on it right away. I haven't seen anything even remotely like it yet and it's one of the things I loved the most about DR. Right before I stopped playing, I had a commoner (no class picked; another thing I would love to see again) that had experience in skills equivalent to a level 10 or so Barbarian. If I wanted, I could have joined the guild and gained 10 levels right away. And if he had somehow trained minimal magic or other specialized skills, he could have done the same in a number of other guilds. I didn't pick a guild because I thought it was more interesting that way, something few people ever did. And having that as an option, even if you don't take it, is a part of what makes the game good.

 

[Morneblade]

However, unlike Morne, I don't want a game based on my personal skill. I do see his point about how a person gains personal skill as they learn the game, etc... but, mine... is minimal. I simply *cannot* play a twitch game where I'm required to move my mouse fast over a screen, and click .. a lot. This is one aspect of HJ that scares me... if I'm trying to cast a fire wall, and I have to draw the line/arc/circle for a firewall? I'll end up drawing a dot, cuz my mouse likes to double click for me. I don't want something based on how fast, or how good I am with my mouse skills... if I wanted that, I'd play FPS or flight sim's ... and did I mention how much I suck at click fests? yeah... terrible, and worse than terrible.

So, I hope there's a happy medium... I don't want to have to think fast. Sadly, I must admit, I do not think fast. Period. Maybe it's my age, but I don't think so... I know folks that are 45 and 55 (10-20 years older than me) and they think twice as fast as me... if I think fast, I trip...

Add that to the "i don't want HJ to be..." list. :-S

~ Jaraeth

I had a long post on this, that got eaten up when EI froze. I'd like to see the game not just be about logging on 10+ hours a day, I DO want to have my skill have some impact. I dont think it should be the only thing that matters either though. And not just how good I am with a mouse, but how well I think, react, plan in advance, ect. Allow ME to have some control, instead of /stick, /autoattack, /goandgetadrink.

This was posted earlier

buzzcut – Fun Objects

and I totally agree. Frosty needs to read this, this is exactly what I'm talking about when it comes to raiding, and "skill".

Back on subject. I think most players could adapt to a system that requires some skill. Not completely dependent on it, we are not professionals getting paid for this, it's a game. For FUN. But I would like more than /timeplayed to mean anything. Find a middle ground. Time should be a factor, but actually being GOOD at something should be a factor too.

I probably didnt say this very well, I hope you get my meaning Jaraeth.

 

[Eve_CinVin]

For Jaraeth, I would just like to add that I'm also not very good at twitch play, but I have found that with practice you do hone your skills and do better than you think you can or will. You sort of get into patterns of using certain skills for each type of battle.

When playing CoH and getting into huge free-for-alls in some of the missions, my eyes were darting, my fingers flying, and adrenaline flowing. And wow! what a thrill it was when you succeeded. When you auto-attack, it just turns out to be you against the game's roll of numbers. It's easier but also just a roll of the dice and there is no skill involved, no sense of achievement.

 

[Luciro]

I disagree with one thing being said after my post.

I DO want the specs to be customizable for me. Some folks don't like messing around with the stuff, but I really enjoy creating my character. Not just by looks and with a bio, but I want way more control than what EQ, EQ2, or WoW had to offer in 'making' my character. Wyr seems like cool perks, but I don't want 'items' to be the only way I can change the play style of my character. I want to pick MY stats, skills, training, growth. Everything. I want to build my own character how I want it.

 

[Morneblade]

I disagree with one thing being said after my post.

I DO want the specs to be customizable for me. Some folks don't like messing around with the stuff, but I really enjoy creating my character. Not just by looks and with a bio, but I want way more control than what EQ, EQ2, or WoW had to offer in 'making' my character. Wyr seems like cool perks, but I don't want 'items' to be the only way I can change the play style of my character. I want to pick MY stats, skills, training, growth. Everything. I want to build my own character how I want it.

I agree. I love planning my character's skills ahead of time. Sh*t, I used to spend hours reserching that sort of thing for DAoC and CoH. In DAoC you even had to choose a paticular weapon based on skills. I loved planning not just for my final template, but for every level, when would I pick which skills? Same with CoH, planning what powers, when I would add slots, what enhancements I would add, ect. I love that kind of planning, and it is something in which you can use to seperate yourself from other players, in playstyle and in how well your character plays.