For Those in Denial! [s4 SPOILERS!]

[DoNtFrOsTtHePiE 47]

WOW ok not quite sure where to put this....

Just finished watching... and i have to admitt... WOW. :blink:

IRINA DEREVKO WAS NOT PLANNING TO KILL SYDNEY BRISTOW! SHE WOULD NOT DO THAT!



like i posted above.... I AM IN DENIAL??

Anyone else? I'd like to start a list

Those In Denial:

IN DENIAL #1 DoNtFrOsTtHePiE 47

 

[Hansen1]

Well I was shocked that Jack ordered Irina's execution and I was shocked as HECK that Irina ordered a hit on Syd, I kept waiting for him to sya that Lauren had ordered the hit, LoL!! Shocked indeed however I do think that Irina was capable of it, and ten bucks says Irina is no where near dead if Lena Olin ever wants to come back, Irina will be so alive so fast

 

[NumberSix]

WOW ok not quite sure where to put this....

Just finished watching... and i have to admitt... WOW.  :blink:

IRINA DEREVKO WAS NOT PLANNING TO KILL SYDNEY BRISTOW! SHE WOULD NOT DO THAT!
like i posted above.... I AM IN DENIAL??

Anyone else? I'd like to start a list

Those In Denial:

Well...Irina is certainly capable of evil. We've seen that amply demonstrated, and she's never been trustworthy. Her sister (if that WAS her sister! that's never been proven) tried to kill Sydney.

OTOH, it's inescapably true that the idea of Irina putting out a contract to an outsider contractor for Sydney makes no sense, on several levels.

 

[sculder]

ok,first of all they had to do something with Irina,she WAS already bad! A liar,a killer,a deciever,so just kill her off.I am so THRILLED they did this! Jack can get his revenge and protect the one person that mean more to him then anything else,SYD!

Good Riddence!

 

[DoNtFrOsTtHePiE 47]

Ok i just cant believe that after everything Syd and Irina went through that Irina would want to kill her. It just doesnt even make sense. I mean Irina left season two telling Syd that she would always love her before she jumped off that building and earlier in that episode at the ice rink when she told Sydney that she was her mother and she hoped that would always be the case or w/e... so i im still in denial

and i know they needed to kill her off but i would have rather hated Jack than Irina...

 

[xinli11]

Yeah man..that was way too sudden. If they were gonna kill of Irina I would've liked that to be a progresion they worked through over several episodes of Season 4. THey just stuck that one in there. And it totally broke with what has been established across the last 3 seasons of Alias of the relationship between Syd and Irina. The feeling I got was that regardless of what else Irina did, she was not willing to sacrifice her daughter. It seems to me like the writers were too eager to completely move away from what happened in the last 3 season and to strat anew that in throwing out everyting, they may have ended up alienating a lot of the current die hard fans who have invested so much in the storylines so far.

 

[tantrumfirefly]

This episode is a disappointment, and I can say that as a person who has never once been disappointed by this show. I may in the minority, but I loved Season 3. I always thought the personal relationships were too facile and meaningless to really make an impact on me. In Season 3, Jack Bristow was a brutal tasteless SOB, now he walks around like an impotent 9 yr old boy. I don't get it. Maybe the ratings were too low for Season 3 for the production value to be justified. I like mythology, I like plot in a show like this, it seems like they might be moving towards episodic early x-files style television. I hope not. There has always been a certain element of contrivance in Alias, but this episode takes the absolute cake. Its like JJ wrote on a dry erase board, WE NEED THE TEAM BACK, and then told the writers, I don't care how it happens, but do it. It was like trying to fit a square peg in a round hole with a sledgehammer, it was kind of a hack job. Sloan is now the leader of a Black Ops Unit, hmm no. Sloane being the member of a humanitarian organization actually sadly made more sense. Don't even ask me why, I couldn't tell you. A few good things about the episode though, Sydney's new found utilization of the terse straightforward one-liner is a step in the right direction. The inclusion of Bad by U2 will always get the thumbs up, and just the chemistry of these actors, it is truly a great ensemble cast. That said, as to the point of this thread as I ramble, the cliffhanger of last year was right up my alley, the complete and utter reversal of the Sydney Universe was welcome, the true origins of her own life and all that, looked they were revealed in those documents. She was flipping through too many pages in horror for it just to be some random junk on her Mom. And the foreboding way in which Jack said You weren't supposed to see that, led me to believe there was some serious shananigans going down. Instead, again round peg, square hole. Rant over.

 

[SpyDude]

I'm in a total denial. What if Irina somehow managed to rebuild Dr. Marcovic's doubling machine and took someone's appearance while doubling 1 of her partners to herself. And her partner put a contract on Syd. So Jack killed whoever was Irina's double and Irina is actually alive. irina wouldn't try to kill SYd. it just can't be.

 

[Darkagent335]

I am so in denial !
Jack never killed Irina and Irina didn`t try to killed Sydney The end !

 

[NumberSix]

Sloane being the member of a humanitarian organization actually sadly made more sense.  Don't even ask me why, I couldn't tell you. 

Maybe because Sloane has always been a very complicated SOB. He's never been purely, totally evil, there were always signs that some good still lived in him, from his obvious love for Emily to his clear affection for Jack, to not giving Nadia the total, mind-destroying dose of the Rambaldi liquid. As Jack pointed out, it was the Rambaldi obsession that was his downfall, but there appears to still be some light left within him. That's not to say he should be trusted, of course.

I don't believe Irina putting a contract on Sydney either, unless something changed her since S2. She's had lots of better chances, and if she was going to try to kill her, she could come up with a better way than that! There were moments, when she was alone and unwatched, that she showed signs of caring for Sydney and Jack, and she's not stupid. Putting out a contract on Sydney to an outsider, while Jack is alive to intervene, is a stupid thing to do.

OTOH, we shouldn't romanticize her, either. She's a liar, a murderer, a blackmailer, apparently an adulterer, she worked for the KGB, she framed Will Tippen for a crime that could get him the death penalty, she shot Sydney, tasered her, knocked her unconscious, abandoned her for 20 years, lied to her to get access to the CIA computers, abandoned her again in "A Dark Turn", etc. She's indifferent to human life, she betrays her followers when it's convenient (paging Khasinou, Sark, the poor bastards she infected with her disease, etc) and generally shows a behavior pattern that would have to be conisdered questionable.

Here's a thought that helps put it in perspective: in practice, Arvin Sloane has come through for Sydney more often than Irina Derevko has.

 

[Mountaineer_1281]

I completely believe that Irina would put a hit out on Syd. As mentioned above by NumberSix, even Irina's sister, Katya, attempted to kill Syd. The reasons are unknown, I figured it was Rambaldi related. And it very well may be, due largely in part to the Prophecy with it's Passenger / Chosen One warning and even the Covenent.
I don't want to speculate as to why Irina would want Syd dead, but I'd imagine the contract for the hit came around after Katya failed. But hopefully JJ will give us a reason so the mystery may be resolved.
It's also very clear that they had to do something with Irina, it was obvious Lena Olin was never coming back.

I was however hoping that the documents Syd discovered in Wittenburg would say something else, something much more devastating. Jack's reaction led me to believe that it was something that would destroy their relationship - I was a bit disappointed since we all know they will move past the execution of Derevko, especially given the facts and Jack's motivation.
What I want to know is, how did Lauren know what Jack did, and what did her words "at least I know who controls me" mean? They have nothing to do with the documents found in the Wittenburg box.

 

[phase272]

I'd be in denial but there is nothing to be in denial about. Come on, half of the cast has died at least once. Do you really think that this can be any different?

As for Irina putting a hit out on Sydney...this wouldn't have happened. Irina would either have done it herself or made sure that it would happen even if she died. If Irina wanted Syd dead, syd would be dead.

 

[#1redwigfan]

I don't know if I'm in denial. I think that Irina would probably kill Sydney. I really don't think that Irina is dead. I really hope not. Maybe she will come back for the final episode for this season. Kind of like in season 1. That would be great. I LOVE IRINA!!!

 

[arch3r]

This episode is a disappointment, and I can say that as a person who has never once been disappointed by this show.  I may in the minority, but I loved Season 3.  I always thought the personal relationships were too facile and meaningless to really make an impact on me.  In Season 3, Jack Bristow was a brutal tasteless SOB, now he walks around like an impotent 9 yr old boy.  I don't get it.  Maybe the ratings were too low for Season 3 for the production value to be justified.  I like mythology, I like plot in a show like this, it seems like they might be moving towards episodic early x-files style television.  I hope not.  There has always been a certain element of contrivance in Alias, but this episode takes the absolute cake.  Its like JJ wrote on a dry erase board, WE NEED THE TEAM BACK, and then told the writers, I don't care how it happens, but do it.  It was like trying to fit a square peg in a round hole with a sledgehammer, it was kind of a hack job.  Sloan is now the leader of a Black Ops Unit, hmm no.  Sloane being the member of a humanitarian organization actually sadly made more sense.  Don't even ask me why, I couldn't tell you.  A few good things about the episode though, Sydney's new found utilization of the terse straightforward one-liner is a step in the right direction.  The inclusion of Bad by U2 will always get the thumbs up, and just the chemistry of these actors, it is truly a great ensemble cast.  That said, as to the point of this thread as I ramble, the cliffhanger of last year was right up my alley, the complete and utter reversal of the Sydney Universe was welcome, the true origins of her own life and all that, looked they were revealed in those documents.  She was flipping through too many pages in horror for it just to be some random junk on her Mom.  And the foreboding way in which Jack said You weren't supposed to see that, led me to believe there was some serious shananigans going down.  Instead, again round peg, square hole.  Rant over.

[post="1151487"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]​

I 100% agree with your ramblings.

The episodes leading up to the S3 finale and then the explaination in S4 premier just don't match at all. I have to believe that what Sydney found in the safefy deposit box was orginally supposed to be about Project Christmas. Some horrible info that the project is still going on today and that she is still being examined. That her 2 year 'vacation' was part of this experiment. And that Jack was still overseeing the entire thing. Why else would the first page list Subject: Sydney Bristow, DOB: [dont remember off-hand], Status: Active, etc, etc, etc. and have it signed by Jack Bristow. That file appeared to me to be a report on Sydney which lends itself to what Lauren said to her. Something to the effect "I know who is controlling me..., Do you?". What does that have to do with a report that Jack killed Irena? Nothing. But has everything to do with my theory.

If it were truely a report for the CIA detailing Jack request to kill Irena, then it would have included justification as well and Sydney would have known right then and there Jack did it to save her. And since when does Jack ever ask for permission to do anything? Come on now. He has countless times, done illegal stuff and covered it up. Why now ask permission? That just wastes time and with Sydney's life hanging in the balance, I don't believe he would have even taken the time to shower, let alone file paperwork. He has a bunkers chock full of cash and weapons. He is not one to be bothered with such formalities as asking permission.

The only explaination I can see for S4 is in the offseason just want was offered above. JJ wanted to try and bring back season 1 and the writers totally hacked the storyline to get it there. Let's just hope they can devise a new plot thread, like Rambaldi chasing, to give APO a purpose and connect the episodes. They burned a ton of bridges and killed a ton of plot lines in S4(not that by with the magic of TV and suspending disbelief, they can not be revived). Let's hope they have thought this out and have a plan for this seasons direction.

With all that being said, wew Direction good or bad? I don't know yet? But like any addiction, it does not matter for me, I will be there ( or at least my TiVo will be there ) every Wed to watch. And I'll be here to cheer the good and b**** about the bad.


ps. How long before Wiess is in APO? I mean come on. He ain't that stoopid. Everyone he worked with left (Sydney, Marchall, Vaughn, Dixon ), yet they all seem to travel quite a bit? Hmmmm? I see him joining APO but still retaining his CIA status as a cover. Kinda like the man on the inside. That works for me. Any thoughts?

 

[shakila]

i think that if they were going to kill off irina they should have done it another way instead of just saying it.

 

[verdantheart]

I don't think that the two-years would have been under Jack's control in any case because she was running under Kendall--in fact I believe that this was an effort on his part to wrest control of her away from that project and place her under the control of the DSR, where he wanted it for a long time. You notice he was careful not to show up anywhere near Jack Bristow when he dropped by to let Sydney know what she had been up to--nice of him. -_-

Also, how were they going to handle it other than by telling us she was dead? Show a figure falling in the shadows? A rockslide--"Irina's under there, I promise!" Anything that they could have shown would have been accused of cheesiness in the extreme. They couldn't get Lena Olin, so saying "she's dead" was just about the best they could do, sad and unsatisfactory as that is. :: sigh ::

 

[arch3r]

Also, how were they going to handle it other than by telling us she was dead? Show a figure falling in the shadows? A rockslide--"Irina's under there, I promise!" Anything that they could have shown would have been accused of cheesiness in the extreme. They couldn't get Lena Olin, so saying "she's dead" was just about the best they could do, sad and unsatisfactory as that is. :: sigh ::

[post="1159717"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]​

Why did the have to kill her off at all? She's a master spy. She could have just disappeared, maybe to pop up in some future episode/season if Lena so chose to come back. Yea, I know this is TV and she can still come back, but if she does now, talk about cheese.

And getting the entire 'team' back togather feels cheesy too. Not sure if its a jump the shark moment, but its close. I had high hopes for a more dark/drama season, and not the brady bunch reunion. But I will still watch, cause I love the show. I was just expecting more. Anyway, I'm just disappointed with how this season picked up from last season. Let's hope that JJ and team have a great new ( or old and forgotten ) story line that will bring this show back to the glory of previous seasons.

Here's wishing every day was Wed.

 

[emetib147]

ok,first of all they had to do something with Irina,she WAS already bad! A liar,a killer,a deciever,so just kill her off.I am so THRILLED they did this! Jack can get his revenge and protect the one person that mean more to him then anything else,SYD!

Good Riddence!

[post="1147126"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]​

how can you say that??? well yea.. she doesnt have the greatest reputation.. but i honestly believe that she truly loves sydney.. and i guess jack too. i am completely 100% in denial that she would put a hit out on sydney.

arch3r.. your so right about the documents in wittenberg. ever since learing about what they apparently said, ive been watching that scene on my dvd over and over pausing it on the documents, and it says NOTHING about irina! i was in the same boat as you.. before S4 started i thought it was about project christmas that was in some weird way being continued all through sydneys life.. and that the 2 years had something to do with that. it was even called Project:Sydney Bristow wasnt it?? how would that relate to jack requesting permission to kill irina?? and your right, jack doesnt ask permission!!! i really hate jack sometimes... but in general i really like his character. i know he loves sydney and it always ends up appearing that hes looking out for her.. but when tamackazi or whatever was about to say who hired him.. i really thought he was gonna say jack!! that would have been terrible too.. but i would much rather deal with jack being evil then irina. ugggh.

 

[verdantheart]

Why did the have to kill her off at all?  She's a master spy.  She could have just disappeared, maybe to pop up in some future episode/season if Lena so chose to come back.  Yea, I know this is TV and she can still come back, but if she does now, talk about cheese.

[post="1160947"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]​

The problem is that this sets up an endless nightmare for the writers because they have to keep this thread open--for what? Some actress who probably will never show up. They need to know what they're dealing with. Much better for them to turn it into a storyline that they can dig their teeth into. Yeah, everybody just loved how they were "keeping her alive" with IM messages. If she "disappeared" they would have to just backburner and "forget" her--possibly for the remainder of the series (why? because if she ever showed, they would have to have room to work with her). Dead, at least they can use the character.

i really thought he was gonna say jack!! that would have been terrible too.. but i would much rather deal with jack being evil then irina. ugggh.

[post="1178930"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]​

This doesn't surprise me, but, really, this would be more in line with what fans wish for than what we can expect from the characters. When we look at the MO of the characters, Irina's come-on is warm, but her actions are cold-blooded. Jack's come-on is cold, but his actions are motivated by his love for his daughter. We have seen Jack put his life on the line for Sydney--a choice we haven't seen Irina have to make. We've seen Jack get close to Irina again just so that Sydney wouldn't have to face the brunt of the betrayal he saw coming--yet that doesn't seem to make much of an impression on anyone. She must have been doing it for some good purpose . . . which we have yet to see. Jack must be hiding things for some evil purpose . . . not just to protect Sydney one more time. :lol:

It's a little late to pull the "big twisteroo" that Jack's evil. They've established him as a complex man whose motivation is that he loves his daughter more than life itself. Yeah, yeah, you can say, "well, he just needs her alive for X," but that doesn't explain the gestures--his hand on the air duct as she goes on a dangerous mission; the way he hugged her after he thought he might lose her forever; the look in his eye when he realizes it's Thanksgiving and remembers everything he's been missing out on . . . etc.

Meanwhile, it's fascinating how people respond to Irina. We've seen her blow people away when she didn't have to (she always kills rather than using tranqs; yeah, right, it's because she's "old school") and I've heard people claim that, no, it wasn't really Irina who killed all those CIA agents . . . ^_^ The same people who make tons of excuses for Irina leave no room for forgiveness for Jack. As I've said, I'm willing to keep an open mind about Irina, but I see little open room for a believable storyline that would allow Irina to be good and do all the terrible things she has done--especially to the people she loves.

Oops, sorry for going on so very long!

 

[emetib147]

Meanwhile, it's fascinating how people respond to Irina. We've seen her blow people away when she didn't have to (she always kills rather than using tranqs; yeah, right, it's because she's "old school") and I've heard people claim that, no, it wasn't really Irina who killed all those CIA agents . . .  ^_^ The same people who make tons of excuses for Irina leave no room for forgiveness for Jack.  As I've said, I'm willing to keep an open mind about Irina, but I see little open room for a believable storyline that would allow Irina to be good and do all the terrible things she has done--especially to the people she loves.

Oops, sorry for going on so very long!

[post="1179475"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]​

i guess your right... but i will always love her! in the long run jack has obviously been the better parent and been their for sydney more. what do you think about irina putting a hit out on sydney though?? i REALLY cant believe that she would do that, despite her actions in the past.