Hero's Journey should not....

[Evran]

HJ should not have level- or class-restricted equipment (for things that should be usuable by all classes; unique items that only one class would be interested in, maybe). This means a character-centric system instead of an equipment-based one.

I haven't yet dug deep enough to see what's really going to happen, but that's my preference. One thing I loved about DragonRealms was that any character could pick up any weapon or armor in the game and use it right away. They may be worse off for using something beyond their current ability (e.g. someone with no strength or stamina trying to use a huge two-handed weapon), but at least it's possible. Similarly, a high-level character could grab a short sword from low level goblins and still be devastating with it (just not quite as good as with a good forged sword).

It's something I have yet to see done in most MMOs, so I'd like to see Simu change that.

I agree wholeheartedly, especially with regards to the part I bolded. I hope the Devs keep this kind of thing in mind. One thing which gives me hope is the way they are handling the Wyr system in which you can use any kind of equipment you want (i.e. my Wizard fully decked out in plate armor ) but can customize the stats based on the Wyr you attach to it.

What I definitely don't want to see is a few items becoming the be all and end all of the game and having to spend inordinate amounts of time/currency/(heaven forbid RL currency) just to obtain them. But seeing as things seem to be heading away from a loot focus I'm quite optimistic about this. The only thing that worries me is funilly enough the Wyr system. I could see this becoming a high-end uber-loot raid based thing which the vast majority of casual players wouldn't be able to access.

All in all, I've been with Simu on and off for about the last 8 or 9 years, so I will definitely be playing this game since I have always had good experiences with them. Hopefully we'll all get to play... soon. ( DR)

 

[Rubowsky]

HJ should not have level- or class-restricted equipment (for things that should be usuable by all classes; unique items that only one class would be interested in, maybe). This means a character-centric system instead of an equipment-based one.

I haven't yet dug deep enough to see what's really going to happen, but that's my preference. One thing I loved about DragonRealms was that any character could pick up any weapon or armor in the game and use it right away. They may be worse off for using something beyond their current ability (e.g. someone with no strength or stamina trying to use a huge two-handed weapon), but at least it's possible. Similarly, a high-level character could grab a short sword from low level goblins and still be devastating with it (just not quite as good as with a good forged sword).

It's something I have yet to see done in most MMOs, so I'd like to see Simu change that.

can't agree with you here. benefits in any mmorpg should be earned. some people like to achieve things because they put a lot of effort into reaching their goals.
that's one of the main things that put the thrill in an mmorpg. the game would bore me pretty fast if there was nothing or little to achieve.
i want unreachable goals! i want something included in the game i will never be able to become or possess. that's what i call long-term motivation.
limited usage of items is pretty much necessary for the game to be fun, in my opinion.

I could see this becoming a high-end uber-loot raid based thing which the vast majority of casual players wouldn't be able to access.

the other way around would be pretty boring, eh? imagine your character to be able to possess and become everything pretty easy... there's no challenge.

 

[Evran]

the other way around would be pretty boring, eh? imagine your character to be able to possess and become everything pretty easy... there's no challenge.

Not necessarily, the focus would just be on other types of items or perhaps not on items at all. As an example in DR some of the most valuable (i.e. sell for the most at player auctions, etc) are simply 'fluff' items. They don't do much but look pretty. The idea is that those high end items don't have to be obtained in order to be considered even a decent player. Case in point: FFXI, item aquisition at all levels of the game is craptastically frustrating. If you don't have the right items you don't get invited, get booted, laughed at, etc. I don't mind having those rare items that require huge amounts of commitment, but don't make them so good that nothing else will do.

As for things that aren't items, simply the experience of killing that extremely tough monster is enough for me. Intangible rewards such as kill stats, or titles earned are just as valuable imo.

And as a side note, I find it hilarious that we both replied to the exact same post in exactly the opposite way at the same time. Cheers!
-----------------------------------------
Oh, and I didn't say anything about it being easy to get good items, just that it shouldn't be set up so that only 5% of the players have a hope of getting them.

 

[Valendros]

the other way around would be pretty boring, eh? imagine your character to be able to possess and become everything pretty easy... there's no challenge.

Well just because you don't have huge raids (in FFXI see Dynamis, Limbus, HNMs, Gods) doesn't mean you can't find an equally difficult way to receive items.

I personally don't want to see, Kill Mob X = Possibility Item Y drops.
I want to see everybody in the game have a unique way to receive that drop be it a high level armor or a meaningless peice of fluff. I Like to think that Simu has taken into account what MMORPGs really are, and try to put the RPG back into them. I would like the idea of being able to sit around with a group of new friends and share your experiences in the game and tell your story. They would be genuinely interested because their story is completely different even if they have the exact same items that you do.

P.S. The reason why fluff was so awesome in Gemstone and so worthless in every other game is in GS people could see you had something unique. They could see you play with your scripted dead raven - My raven's cage was my sheath so my staff went in there... maybe not the most logical things in the game, but still interesting.


Last thing: In FFXI there are only so many items you can get. You can technically obtain ALL the items. There are no unique items like you had in GS. I would imageine it would take a lot more server power as the items stats and abilities have to be stored there instead of your machine, but I want to see the equivalnt of the GS's animate dead wand. Only 1 in existance (was used for beta testing at that - sells for many many many millions of silver).

 

[Morneblade]

can't agree with you here. benefits in any mmorpg should be earned. some people like to achieve things because they put a lot of effort into reaching their goals.

Sorry, I disagree. First, you need to define "earned". /played is usually the ONLY thing that matters. No skill involved at all. If you wnat to equat earned with playing 16 hours a day, play Vangauard, or EQ, or WoW or any other craptastic MMO out there right now. And there is NO rule that says this must be so, or the world emplodes. Second, Just because SOME people like this, doesnt mean everyone does. And there are more than enough of "those" MMO's out there. This one CAN be different.

that's one of the main things that put the thrill in an mmorpg. the game would bore me pretty fast if there was nothing or little to achieve.

For you, but not everyone. Maybe others enjoy role playing, or playing at a slower pace. There are alot of MMO's that cater just to the grinding raid machine thing. Actually, those are hidiously boring, mindless and redundant.

i want unreachable goals! i want something included in the game i will never be able to become or possess. that's what i call long-term motivation.

That's modivation? Here is something you can't do. Now do it? OK, how this: be a achiever in a non-achiver game. Where it doesnt matter, and no one cares.

limited usage of items is pretty much necessary for the game to be fun, in my opinion.

What do you mean by this? I can't see how something as trivial as item use is going to make a game fun. Unfun maybe, but not fun.

the other way around would be pretty boring, eh? imagine your character to be able to possess and become everything pretty easy... there's no challenge.

For you, maybe. Might be fun for alot of other people. Of course there MIGHT be alot more to the game than "stuff". If your game is only about stuff, it's pretty boring, right? Yeah it is, I've played more than one, and they are really dull and mindless. Most MMO's are about "stuff", and they are well, boring.

 

[Rubowsky]

Sorry, I disagree

so we agree to disagree. that's a good start.

First, you need to define "earned". /played is usually the ONLY thing that matters. No skill involved at all. If you wnat to equat earned with playing 16 hours a day, play Vangauard, or EQ, or WoW or any other craptastic MMO out there right now.

well, i just said how i would like the game to be, just like you did. i don't think "go away if you do not share my opinion" is a fair point.

And there is NO rule that says this must be so, or the world emplodes.

obviously, a lot of people really do like it. just look at the people playing wow or everquest out there.
just because hero's journey wants to be different compared to other games, (what's a good thing!) it's not a must to change everything.

Second, Just because SOME people like this, doesnt mean everyone does.

i may use that point, too.

For you, but not everyone. Maybe others enjoy role playing, or playing at a slower pace.

they will be able to. nobody denied that. they just don't get the "uber-stuff" as a present.

There are alot of MMO's that cater just to the grinding raid machine thing. Actually, those are hidiously boring, mindless and redundant.

being hard to achieve isn't equal to boring grinding. what about a series of interesting, but damn-hard quests to achieve them?

For you, maybe. Might be fun for alot of other people. Of course there MIGHT be alot more to the game than "stuff".

never denied it. but "stuff" is a part of the game. an important one, in my opinion.

If your game is only about stuff, it's pretty boring, right? Yeah it is, I've played more than one, and they are really dull and mindless. Most MMO's are about "stuff", and they are well, boring.

well, that's your opinion. but it's not a given fact.

who said nobody will be able to roleplay and take life easy anymore? nobody.
i just don't like the attitude of guys complaining about great items other players achieved while they sat on their butts doing roleplay. if they like this style of playing: fine.
but to take good items out of the game or to make them easy to achieve is not an option.

that's exactly the difference between my opinion and yours: i tolerate other playstyles. you do not.
let the powergamers have their hardly-to-achieve shiny stuff and they'll be happy.
just like the rp-guys in the tavern will be happy without shiny stuff. (and i really don't think the rp-guys do play a rpg for the sake of "stuff", do they?)

 

[Jaraeth]

...

that's exactly the difference between my opinion and yours: i tolerate other playstyles. you do not.

...

Please refrain from such commentary directed toward another member of the forums. Morne came across harsh I think, but he did not directly attack anyone, in my eyes.

Let's think and rewrite before we post things that may be construed and/or be taken the wrong way.

... no more ...

~ Jaraeth

 

[Rubowsky]

sorry if i sounded harsh. it's a bit hard to choose my words right since i.. well, i don't know much of them.

 

[Morneblade]

well, i just said how i would like the game to be, just like you did. i don't think "go away if you do not share my opinion" is a fair point.

You're right about that. And it's a sore subject. Most games have the type of gameplay you're discribing, and honestly I'm really tired of it. I would like to play something different,and when someone comes in and says lets have the same game that has been recycled since EQ, I get bent. It's been done to death. People play it, yeah, but then they dont have many options either. I'd like to see some. That was why I came off they way I did. I've powergamed for too long and I hate it, even though I did it for years, and I dont want to get on that treadmill again.

obviously, a lot of people really do like it. just look at the people playing wow or everquest out there.

Most of the people I know that do play it WoW and EQ hate the raid grind. But they are stupid enough to keep playing it, even though they hate it. Or have never played a MMO before, ever, and they dont have a clue. That is something I never understood myself, playing something you dont like. And like I said, there isnt alot of other options for them to explore.

just because hero's journey wants to be different compared to other games, (what's a good thing!) it's not a must to change everything.

Granted, but that is THE one thing I would change.

they will be able to. nobody denied that. they just don't get the "uber-stuff" as a present.

How about no uber stuff, where you character is defined more by you and your skills?

being hard to achieve isn't equal to boring grinding. what about a series of interesting, but damn-hard quests to achieve them?

Those are the kinds of things alot of us are hoping to see actually in HJ. But stuff where you dont need "200 of your not so closest friends and 14 hours to do it" kinda stuff.

never denied it. but "stuff" is a part of the game. an important one, in my opinion.

Doesnt have to be though. Your character could be more important, and his skills, or YOUR actual skill.

who said nobody will be able to roleplay and take life easy anymore? nobody.

No, but you're not rewarded for it in other MMO's. Maybe the focus will be shifted here and away from powergamers being the only people from getting anything cool. playing 16 hours a day should be a right to get all the cool stuff, and do all see all the cool sites, and do all the cool things.

i just don't like the attitude of guys complaining about great items other players achieved while they sat on their butts doing roleplay. if they like this style of playing: fine.
but to take good items out of the game or to make them easy to achieve is not an option.

And this is the attitude I really dont like. Having the game revolve around powergamers, and that only the powergamers can really excel in it. That having 16 hours a day to play is the only thing that really matters in the game. "Working" at something that is supposed to be freakin F U N. I dont think they should be rewared for having way too much time spent playing a game. They are rewarded in every other MMO. I started out being a casual player, then saw the only way to get anything done was to powergame. I've done it for years. I hate it. And I've decided I wont play a game that caters to that very small playerbase again. Most, if not all MMO's cater to them. So no, I dont feel that bad about sending someone that wants to make HJ into a EQ to well, another EQ clone. If they want to turn what little chance I have into playing a game for "fun", and not "working", then yeah, I'll do it, if that is the only thing they want in a game.

that's exactly the difference between my opinion and yours: i tolerate other playstyles. you do not.

I probably tolerate it as well as you do, since you cant stand the idea of a player who can only play 20-30 hours a week (a partime job, if you will) being able to compete with someone that plays a game like it's 2 jobs (60+ a week). The fact that almost every MMO I've been in works just like that says I have been tolerant, but would much prefer to play something other than a game that caters to kids that want to be 1337 or some guy living at his moms with no job. So, if I have th chance to play a game where I dont have to cut my sleep back to 3 hours a night just so I can do some fun stuff, then no, I dont want to see ANOTHER EQ develop out of it. Sorry.

let the powergamers have their hardly-to-achieve shiny stuff and they'll be happy.

Only them, since the vast majority of casual games wont be. And the majority of gamers are casual.

I apologize for coming off so strong and it wasnt against you personally. But to have another "hey, lets make HJ just like every other EQ clone MMO out there, f*ck the regular players, only reward the powergamers." post sets me off like basically nothing else.
-----------------------------------------

Please refrain from such commentary directed toward another member of the forums. Morne came across harsh I think, but he did not directly attack anyone, in my eyes.

Let's think and rewrite before we post things that may be construed and/or be taken the wrong way.

... no more ...

~ Jaraeth

It's ok Jaraeth. I came in kinda hard. I'm sure that Rub wasnt aware about how much I hate the EQ/WoW games and how much I hate the powergaming aspect, or saw the F*** Raiding thing I have under my name, hehe. Or he might have just said "oh s***, here he comes on that anti-powergame thing" and just ignored me, and not actually tired to have a rational conversation with me on this subject. As I sit here foaming at the mouth like a rabid dog, hehehe!

 

[Rubowsky]

Most of the people I know that do play it WoW and EQ hate the raid grind. But they are stupid enough to keep playing it, even though they hate it.

i never said there should be something like the boring wow-raiding in hj. there should be raiding, yes. but it should be interesting.
just like there should be a lot of solo-content, especially for high-end characters.

Or have never played a MMO before, ever, and they dont have a clue. That is something I never understood myself, playing something you dont like.

there are a lot of things i love and complain about. complaining about things doesn't have to mean one is hating them.

How about no uber stuff, where you character is defined more by you and your skills?

that would be an ego-shooter. no long-term motivation. it get's boring when there's nothing to achieve. greed is a huge motivation.

Those are the kinds of things alot of us are hoping to see actually in HJ. But stuff where you dont need "200 of your not so closest friends and 14 hours to do it" kinda stuff.

agreed. there should be a lot of solo-content also.

Doesnt have to be though. Your character could be more important, and his skills, or YOUR actual skill.

me and my character's skill do not change over time. they are not new.

No, but you're not rewarded for it in other MMO's.

you shouldn't be. the benefit of roleplaying is the experience of having roleplayed.
nobody roleplays because a great reward awaits them.

Maybe the focus will be shifted here and away from powergamers being the only people from getting anything cool.

who the heck said that? hopefuly, there will be a lot of cool stuff.
but also it will hopefuly take a lot of time and effort to achieve the real "übermighty" stuff.
nobody said you're not able to have fun without this stuff.

And this is the attitude I really dont like. Having the game revolve around powergamers, and that only the powergamers can really excel in it. That having 16 hours a day to play is the only thing that really matters in the game. "Working" at something that is supposed to be freakin F U N. I dont think they should be rewared for having way too much time spent playing a game.

they should be rewarded for the effort they put in. noone cares how they did it.

I probably tolerate it as well as you do, since you cant stand the idea of a player who can only play 20-30 hours a week (a partime job, if you will) being able to compete with someone that plays a game like it's 2 jobs (60+ a week).
The fact that almost every MMO I've been in works just like that says I have been tolerant, but would much prefer to play something other than a game that caters to kids that want to be 1337 or some guy living at his moms with no job. So, if I have th chance to play a game where I dont have to cut my sleep back to 3 hours a night just so I can do some fun stuff, then no, I dont want to see ANOTHER EQ develop out of it. Sorry.

a lot of prejudice in here. just take me as an example:
from september on, i will work from 8:00 am to 5:00 pm. i've got a girlfriend and lots of buddies and hobbies which are very time-consuming. i even won't have any internet-connection for almost the next 2 years because i'm moving to another place. i will have to visit a friend's home to even play online-games which clearly makes me a player with little time to play. but still, i'm a powergamer. it may take me years to achieve what others did in 2 months but i'm going fanatically after it.
to achieve great things is very time-consuming, yes. but you decide when to put that time on the table. you may stretch it to years.


i just don't get your point here. nobody HAS to put that much time in the game. you are not forced into it. you still can have a lot of fun without even reaching the level limit. (i maxed very few of my characters to the level limit in my long career of mmorpgs. so i know it's possible.)
and i just don't get the idea that you only can have fun when all the mightiest stuff in the game is yours. or the other way: there won't be anyone having better stuff than you because there is no good stuff. (when i refer to "you", i do not mean you as a person. i just ran out of words. i'm adressing "you" in order to make my arguments clear. i do not try to play freud here, my eloquence is just miserable. "you" is a placeholder for "a person who plays the game")
so you can only have fun when there are no other players around having better stuff than you have? i don't get the point.
let others raid. let others powerplay. let others get the reward for it. why do you care? you can still have a lot of fun.
to achieve great stuff, put great effort in it. if you don't want to, just be fine with what you have.
and if you do not have the time to play 14 hours a day: fine! it will just take longer for you to achieve the great stuff. more fun to you because the game doesn't become boring so early.
at the point where i achieved the mightiest stuff in a game, it gets boring. there's no goal anymore. so i want there to be lots of stuff i'll never be able to reach.

oh my god, what a chaos here in my post. hope you're able to understand me.

 

[Jaraeth]

...

i just don't get your point here. nobody HAS to put that much time in the game. you are not forced into it. you still can have a lot of fun without even reaching the level limit. (i maxed very few of my characters to the level limit in my long career of mmorpgs. so i know it's possible.)

...

oh my god, what a chaos here in my post. hope you're able to understand me.

Have you ever played Dark Age of Camelot? I know Morne has I think it may help if you saw what happened in that game. For one, they introduced an expansion called "Trials of Atlantis", with *UBER* items *IF* you got the 2-4 items needed to activate the uber-items, called "Artifacts", *AND* completed the raid step, in some circumstances. After you obtained the artifact and activated it, by talking to an NPC, you then had to LEVEL it... Sometimes, leveling an artifact meant grinding in particular dungeons, or zones... most often, however, you had to level the artifact by obtaining a certain type of XP, known as "MLXP", which you then had to be a part of major raids... 40person to 300 person type raids... which, even with those numbers, often took 6 to 14 hours to complete... non-stop.

That ruined the game for many DAoC'ers... and thus, Mythic brought on three new servers, without the Trails of Atlantis zones, known as "Classic Servers".

Thus, much of what I hate about raiding and "powergamers" is that we are required, by the game, to play for endless hours, not having fun. I know some folks thinks raiding Molten Core in WoW is fun, however, if it takes lots of efforts on my part, it loses it's fun factor... and no thanks... I don't want to play that game.

I do play WoW, but I formed my own guild, and we're having fun. We're in no hurry to raid, and don't care if and when we do raid, if ever. We're just roleplaying our whacky characters, and taking our time, doing what we like.

~ Jaraeth

 

[Thaos Nightwind]

Have you ever played Dark Age of Camelot? I know Morne has I think it may help if you saw what happened in that game. For one, they introduced an expansion called "Trials of Atlantis", with *UBER* items *IF* you got the 2-4 items needed to activate the uber-items, called "Artifacts", *AND* completed the raid step, in some circumstances. After you obtained the artifact and activated it, by talking to an NPC, you then had to LEVEL it... Sometimes, leveling an artifact meant grinding in particular dungeons, or zones... most often, however, you had to level the artifact by obtaining a certain type of XP, known as "MLXP", which you then had to be a part of major raids... 40person to 300 person type raids... which, even with those numbers, often took 6 to 14 hours to complete... non-stop.

That ruined the game for many DAoC'ers... and thus, Mythic brought on three new servers, without the Trails of Atlantis zones, known as "Classic Servers".

Thus, much of what I hate about raiding and "powergamers" is that we are required, by the game, to play for endless hours, not having fun. I know some folks thinks raiding Molten Core in WoW is fun, however, if it takes lots of efforts on my part, it loses it's fun factor... and no thanks... I don't want to play that game.~ Jaraeth

I find this staggering.

It (IMHO) has to be one of the abosolutely worst things about gaming. What was the devoloper thinking when someone gave the go ahead to this idea? Does anyone have any ideas as to whether or not this is a facet for which there are lots of bonafied players sustaining grindfest to that degree?

I guess the answer to that may be the success of WoW but...I mean; is it working in terms of player numbers on the servers that are not classic? Are there lots of peeps still there who are going to go after this type of 'goal'?

I don't think i've ever read or had anyone put into readable/understandable form just what it took to acheive something via "grindfest" and I have to say that i'm even more astonished now that i've read this.

Theres no way. No way.

I hope HJ doesn't ever consider implementing this type of thing. If they do then I hope my character's success isn't tied to it.

Sheesh!

 

[Jaraeth]

Did people agree to the grindfest of levelling up artifacts in DAoC? Yes. Moreso on the carebear, PvE server, Gaheris, I am lead to believe. Mainly because of the fact that DAoC is an RvR (Realm vs Realm) game... that is, huge groups of people against 2 others... each server being split between 3 realms: Hibernia, Midgard & Albion. On Gaheris, all three realms co-exist peacefully and are open to all players thus, you had 3 times the amount of people available to run these huge raids in the ToA (Trials of Atlantis) zones.

People loved sporting the new uber artifacts... and others despised it and left the game, and as with any new addition to games, there are pro's and con's, and people either rant about how unbalancing it was, or rave about how great it was... Personally, I completed Master Level 1, when there are 10 Master Levels within this ToA aspect of the game... I did not have the time to dedicate to any further raids, and I lost out.

~ Jaraeth

 

[Morneblade]

And that wasnt the half of it. All the Master level stuff became very unbalanceing in RvR, so it was a huge issue there too. Guys that had 5 million RP and were super RvR players all of a suddent needed to go raid and do the ToA ML horrible grind, the one they quit EQ because they hated just to compete. It was awful. The "classic servers" are now the most popular servers in DaoC, which should tell you something.

Let me explain why I'm so adamant agianst that playstyle. I dont expect to change your mind about it, as far as what you personally like to play, but to understand why I hate it so.

When you have a game like say WoW, or EQ, or EQ2, or DAoC/ToA servers, or L2, or FF XI, orRF Online, or RYL, or Knight Online, ect., or now even DDO, where l00t is king, you see a couple things. First, there are ALOT of games like this, and this kinda sucks. Second and maybe more importantly, when you have a game that caters to powergamers, most of the "leveling" content is well, very sub par in comparison. It's just filler, with the focus on the "endgame". And the endgame is only open to those that, well play tons. sorry, but that is lame IMO.

Now, I have played alot of MMO's. I have leveled characters to max level in most of them. I have found that "content" generally speaking is better post-max level. I dont really expect that to change if the mindset of the dev team is loot at the endgame. Should it, I'd say hell yes, but I dont think it will happen. When you cater to items, and endgame, you get powergamers. And they dont care about other types of content, since all they are going ot do is burn through it. So you just get "their" type of content. Now, if say you could to other things and get the same rewards, I wouldn't care if there was Raiding. However, if I could solo and get the same loot, or just quest and get the same loot, and not spend 3 days (real time) camping a mob then getting it stolen by some ass using a unix box with a packet sniffer, or Raiding MC for like the 15th time before something I can use drop, and then having to roll against 7 guys to get it. then powergamers would bitch about me not "earning" it.

And then I get pissed and say F*** Raiding.

I play games for other reasons than "earning". I play for fun, and I DO expect to be able to do everything. And not have to play 60 hours a week to get a leg up on things. I'm past that.

 

[Jaraeth]

I will agree with Morneblade for most of what he said. Thinking back on it, and comparing what he said to WoW, I come up with this:

When was the last time, you played WoW (relevant to those that have played WoW, or are playing) and you found a piece of armor that was blue, yellow or purple, and was for a level 10 or higher Paladin? Blue? Sure, rare drop but I've gotten one ... ONCE in the past 40 characters I've leveled beyond level 10.

Why is it that games offer loot to lower than capped-out characters, but it's all felgercarb? Why can't my level 5 priest, get a drop that's purple? I had to ask my other half to break out their level 60 and help me raid a dungeon so I could get level 20 armor that I couldn't get solo'ing unless I was level 35... a little late for that isn't it?

I should be able to get rare items without needing to raid, or buy them for extravagant prices off an auction house, for any character level. I don't want to spend 40 gold on a level 10 item, when my character is lucky to see 40 silver at level 10. Twinking... a whole other issue... but powergamers beget twinking, cuz they'll loot everything worthwhile, and sell it to the peons of the game for high gold.

Now I'm starting to get miffed like Morne, lol

~ Jaraeth

 

[frostydf2]

Mourneblade, don't think this will last long. I do agree with you on your post. I belive the only game that has ever had unique/elite armor for low levels would be Diablo 2. You could always find magic, rare, and then unique at any level. They had items for everyone, at any level.

Hero's Journey should tak ea system on like that. Always have rewards, but rare rewards for everyone, at every level. Make it worth the extra time, and effort to go that one step further in a dungeon that isn't necessary. Make that one person get really lucky on that Chief Ukar. Give him a head dress that helps him out even at low levels.

Awh, I can't believe it!.....

go go raiding!

 

[Morneblade]

i never said there should be something like the boring wow-raiding in hj. there should be raiding, yes. but it should be interesting.

We've had some good debates on how HJ could do this. HOwever, msot of us agree that Raiding should be mearly an option on what you can do after you max, and be generally not very important.

just like there should be a lot of solo-content, especially for high-end characters.

agree totally

there are a lot of things i love and complain about. complaining about things doesn't have to mean one is hating them.

No, but saying they hate it does. Or it's worse than their job, but they feel like they are forced to, since tehy are in a raiding guild.

that would be an ego-shooter. no long-term motivation. it get's boring when there's nothing to achieve. greed is a huge motivation.

Ok, sentence by sentence. My ego can handle it. Loot shouldnt be the ONLY modivation. There are tons of other types of modivation. I think it gets boring when it not FUN, not that there is nothing to achieve. Greed is huge I agree, but its not the only form of modivation. And not having it as the one source of modivation might make the game better. Look at the WoW community if you want to see what greed does to a game. It's not a good thing.

me and my character's skill do not change over time. they are not new.

Never played a skill based game have you? Or a decent level based game, where you get more skills as you progress? Skills change alot, and your skill improves as you play more, and learn the system. I'll tell you the first time I went out for RvR in DAoC, I had all the skills, but NO skill in PvP. 1 year later, MY skill had increased expotentially.

i just don't get your point here. nobody HAS to put that much time in the game. you are not forced into it. you still can have a lot of fun without even reaching the level limit. (i maxed very few of my characters to the level limit in my long career of mmorpgs. so i know it's possible.)
and i just don't get the idea that you only can have fun when all the mightiest stuff in the game is yours. or the other way: there won't be anyone having better stuff than you because there is no good stuff. (when i refer to "you", i do not mean you as a person. i just ran out of words. i'm adressing "you" in order to make my arguments clear. i do not try to play freud here, my eloquence is just miserable. "you" is a placeholder for "a person who plays the game")
so you can only have fun when there are no other players around having better stuff than you have? i don't get the point.
let others raid. let others powerplay. let others get the reward for it. why do you care? you can still have a lot of fun.
to achieve great stuff, put great effort in it. if you don't want to, just be fine with what you have.
and if you do not have the time to play 14 hours a day: fine! it will just take longer for you to achieve the great stuff. more fun to you because the game doesn't become boring so early.
at the point where i achieved the mightiest stuff in a game, it gets boring. there's no goal anymore. so i want there to be lots of stuff i'll never be able to reach.

I'll try to summerize. First, I'm a recovering powergamer. I dont want to feel like i "need" to play like that anymore. I dont "need" to have things to achieve to not get bored. Actually, I like to get to the top ASAP, so I can relax. If something cool happens on a wim, I want to be able to take part in it. That usually applies only to the maxed lvl people. Take DAoC for example. Your forst are getting hit, and you need to repel. Your lvl 24 guy isnt even worth taking out, he's a oneshot, even to my gimp-ass hunter. Or there is a Dragon Raid. Or a Relic Raid. Or we're going to hit Emain, or piss off the Albs in RvR. Dont ever bring a non-maxed out lvl character, or you're worthelss. I like doing this, rather than the typical "grinding" felgercarb you have to do otherwise. But I dont get bored when I have gotten all the cool weapons. I usually help friends lvl, keep crafters from going mad by talking to them for hours. Goof off. And if something comes up, I can take part in it. Now, you throw that type of content for non-maxed lvl toons, cool. Wont happen though. So I sont wanna reward 1337ness anymore. Too many games do that now, so I'd rather not see it in HJ, or the typical crowd that is drawn to it. Hope this makes sence.

 

[Jaraeth]

... I usually help friends lvl, keep crafters from going mad by talking to them for hours. Goof off. And if something comes up, I can take part in it. Now, you throw that type of content for non-maxed lvl toons, cool.
...

I believe that is the crux of it all. I too, like to sit around, chat, bop a mob over the head here and there... explore... do nothing or do something... and when something comes up... go. I too, want to do this at any level, I don't want to have to be maxed out. I sooo hated that in DAoC.

~ Jaraeth

 

[Morneblade]

I believe that is the crux of it all. I too, like to sit around, chat, bop a mob over the head here and there... explore... do nothing or do something... and when something comes up... go. I too, want to do this at any level, I don't want to have to be maxed out. I sooo hated that in DAoC.

~ Jaraeth

Thing is, that this is what happens in every level based game, and almost all MMO's put most of theri good content to ONLY maxed out players. WoW, is the samw way. EQ 1 and 2 is the same way, CoH is almost the same way. HZ was when I played. L2, RYL, FF XI, ect ect, blah blah blah...

This is a big reason I really perfer skill based games. You DON"T have to be maxed out skill-wise to be effective and be useful. Or games with a true "endgame" I've decided.

I was talking with Eve last night, and something really hit home. I really liked SWG, because there was not rat race at the end, you kinda did what you wanted, with no penalty. I usually hate crafting (and crafters for that matter) but I ended up kinda being one. I would find what mobs were dropping the "good" pelts and hunt them to sell to crafters. Loved it because I made a big chunck of change doing it, actually contributed to the economy in a way were I wasnt getting shafted for a change, and actually ended up liking "crafting. Heck, I even used to mine for energy and ore as well. But I was killing things for a purpose, something I havent really done much of in most MMO's. Or I head down to the Cantina and jam (untill I was forced to give up all my musician skills) or play with my pets and goof off in Mos Eisley with them. More of a "sandbox" game, where you basically created your own content, rather than having it rammed down your throat like in most MMO's.

I'd love to see HJ take this approach, but I dont think they will. I think they have actually been playing it safe in some ways. Class/lvl sytem, looking like Wyr might just be replacing ph4t l3wt as being king, and other things. I would like to see a open, undefined "endgame", where you just do what you like, not what you are forced to or need to do to keep up with the Jones.

 

[Evran]

I'd love to see HJ take this approach, but I dont think they will. I think they have actually been playing it safe in some ways. Class/lvl sytem, looking like Wyr might just be replacing ph4t l3wt as being king, and other things. I would like to see a open, undefined "endgame", where you just do what you like, not what you are forced to or need to do to keep up with the Jones

.

Yes Simu certainly seems to be not as focused on a game with no end-game as it has in DR. But its hard to really knock them because they are trying to draw in a new player base, one that is most certainly groomed on end-game oriented games. I hope they pick some form of happy medium that lets people coming from both sides enjoy the game equally. And who knows. Perhaps it'll convert a few "must have end-game content" people over to the "Its not what you have or can do, but how you do it" side after they see it can be so much fun.