Still Humming Along

[Valendros]

Well. The only problem with all NPCs contributing to the economy and reacting to it is the mobs. How quickly would boars have to be able to reproduce in order to satisfy the bloodlust of new adventurers?

If you make it so they only are unconscious then you can't get pelts & teeth and such from them. And there can't be an unlimited supply of them. And the only treasure sentient mobs would be able to have is that which they took off of other adventurers or NPCs.

If new money is created then money sinks must exist to destroy it and keep it in balance. FFXI does this very well, but one tiny oversight that let people basically create money 1000 gil at a time almost destroyed FFXI's economy.

I just hope they don't just toss in a system like Gemstone. If so driven, any exploiter could decimate Gemstone's economy (well, it's already pretty broken; any system where 1million currency is a paltry amount is pretty broken). They're just lucky most people that play GS don't take advantage.

 

[Valendros]

And while we WANT purpose to exist in the game world in a real and measurable way, I think the only real way to pull it off is in instances.

There's only so many walls and bridges and food reserves the player community requires. There's only so much stuff you can do, and no amount of GM demolition will be able to undo it. At some point rebuilding the same walls that some GM came and demolished or taking out the same warcamp over and over is going to get frustrating and repetitive.

I made an outline years ago for a gemstone quest system that used the demonic summoning valances as places a group of people could be whisked off to and have some underlying problem they needed to solve with many different ways to solve them in order to come back.

 

[Performer]

How quickly would boars have to be able to reproduce in order to satisfy the bloodlust of new adventurers?

I don't think there's a Problem with respawning Mobs. Everybody's used to it anyway. Sure i'd like it better if they came from destructible Lairs, inconspicously bred, migrated into the Gameworld, could be herded, ...

And while we WANT purpose to exist in the game world in a real and measurable way, I think the only real way to pull it off is in instances.

Funny, i think Instances are the only Place where you definitely can't create Purpose. This stems from my Definition, which may well differ from yours: If an Action affects only me (or my Group), it's Characterdevelopment - if it affects the World in some lasting Way, it creates Purpose.
Anything i've done in an Instance is snuffed into Oblivion at the Moment when i leave it. I can only share it with my Group, it doesn't affect the World. So even if there's a lasting Impact, it's only something that affects myself - therefore i consider anything that happens in an Instance Characterdevelopment (or not even that, if i'm capped and don't gain new Items).

There's only so many walls and bridges and food reserves the player community requires. ... At some point rebuilding the same walls ... or taking out the same warcamp over and over is going to get frustrating and repetitive.

Agreed. As all things get boring with Time. But i'd never suggest taking away Pieces of Characterdevelopment or the Chase for better Equipment. Which nowadays are the only incentive to play (besides RP, which is negligible). I want Purpose on Top of what MMOs always offer.

I envision a PvE-Game where the Player-Kingdom is besieged by the NPC-Kingdom and they constantly struggle over Ressources and Land. Conducting Campaigns, building Infrastructure, securing Mines and Quarries, building and razing Towns, ... With NPCs that give Quests out depending on what is currently needed in a certain Place. Harvest this, manufacture that, scout an Area, guard a Caravan, push back a spreading Infestation, assassinate an enemy general, destroy their Warmachines, ... As the Content is expands, the Player-Kingdom would likely push back the borders, marching deeper into enemy Lands, and expanding the save Areas.

Two Years ago, over at the official Forums, i posted this about Purpose and Having an Impact on the World.

 

[Valendros]

I envision a PvE-Game where the Player-Kingdom is besieged by the NPC-Kingdom and they constantly struggle over Ressources and Land. Conducting Campaigns, building Infrastructure, securing Mines and Quarries, building and razing Towns, ... With NPCs that give Quests out depending on what is currently needed in a certain Place. Harvest this, manufacture that, scout an Area, guard a Caravan, push back a spreading Infestation, assassinate an enemy general, destroy their Warmachines, ... As the Content is expands, the Player-Kingdom would likely push back the borders, marching deeper into enemy Lands, and expanding the save Areas.

I would like this too, but I think in an MMO, without instances, it's impossible. There's too many players per world. You would have to severely limit the players per world, make a game that's unrivaled in sheer land area, and have hundreds of different ways one can contribute to the war effort.

 

[Gate]

I would like this too, but I think in an MMO, without instances, it's impossible. There's too many players per world. You would have to severely limit the players per world, make a game that's unrivaled in sheer land area, and have hundreds of different ways one can contribute to the war effort.

Actually, I was thinking that with the Hero Engine's abilities, a system like Simu has with their GMs would make this very reasonable. You could have unpaid GMs playing the NPC side of things, essentially players in their own right but limited by what the chain of command tells them to do. Essentially a living, breathing opposition instead of just mindless mobs. With real people controlling the opposing events a lot of things could come naturally- you would be rewarded if you went to save a town, but you wouldn't be completing a quest to do so.

I think a job system (no, not FFXI) instead of a quest system could be interesting. You take on a task, not to complete at some undefinable time, but one that you can work on right now. A caravan is forming up and needs guards, a GM is in charge of the caravan master and can hire PCs on for the journey. When there are a sufficient number of guards (or guards of sufficient power) to defend the caravan, the GM signals for it to depart. Each PC guarding that caravan is now doing their job and will get credit for it because they were tagged by the GM. If the caravan wins through the raids on it, the PCs are rewarded. If someone leaves the caravan they do not get the rewards and don't just get to go back and try it again later unless another caravan accepts them.

With a GM in charge of things like this each caravan run could be somewhat different, more exciting, less exciting, different enemies, and I bet it would be pretty easy to manage too- all the GM has to do is select from a set of pre-formed scenarios to throw at the players. In this way the same GM could manage caravan runs on a whole continent while another manages a single town raid at a time.

 

[Silverblade]

Okay I see now. What people want is to have quests or adventures to be personal. Unfortunately, that will never happen with the current level of technology and resources.

In WoW, the quests and instances in a roleplay perspective is considered tailored to your character or party. A significant level of disbelief is required to play any MMO because content doesn't change due to player action. I don't see it changing in the near future either because the logistics to do so in a MMO with hundreds of thousands (millions) players would be too great.

So when you are collecting those five boar hides, in some way you have to assume the vendor only asked your group to collect it. These games are not alive. They are static. In order to play them as a living breathing world, some compromises have to be made.

I mean why stop at boar hides? How many people killed that big bad raid boss on the server? How many killed him more than once? Surely he must get sick and tired of getting killed repeatedly by the same group of adventurers. Where's the logic in that? And you'd think some types of creatures would have gone extinct considering all the farming done to collect whatever they drop.

Maybe expectations on what kind of entertainment a MMO will provide has gone up too far to the point where it has become unrealistic? I don't know. Maybe I'm the one who is jaded. But I honestly don't see much difference between any current and in-development MMO other than the lore, graphics and setting.

I mean even if HJ does launch, I never thought it would alter the MMO landscape that dramatically. My expectation was a little more variety (since technology has advanced a little) but I always believed it would have the same progression like those found in today's MMO.

 

[Gate]

Maybe expectations on what kind of entertainment a MMO will provide has gone up too far to the point where it has become unrealistic?

If you had told me, back when I was playing Dragon Warrior I (my first RPG), that some day I would be playing a sword-wielding character with tens of thousands of others in a game that never stops, in real time, in three dimensions, I would have thought you were crazy. Dragon Warrior I came out in 1989- 20 years ago. Where will the RPG genre be in another 20 years? The only unrealistic expectations are those that involve time- too little of it. Give it time and we will see what comes, but only if we keep clamoring for it. If there is no demand, then things will stay as they are.

 

[Performer]

These games are not alive. They are static.

Yes they are - but they don't have to. All you really need are Triggers and Controlloops to shape NPC-Behavior, and an IA like every Strategygame has, to do the global Planning. There doesn't have to be a Human behind every little Change in the World - you only need one to set it all up (and to do something awesome from Time to Time). Right now, there seems to be the Creed that everything has to be available to everyone at any Time. I think this is wrong. There has to be something, but it may well be this today, and that tomorrow. Everyone want's new Content, why not let the Content change itself continually ?