Favorite Couple?

[Kimberline]

I'm a diehard Buffy/Angel girl, myself - have been for almost eight years and my home away from home is my B/A board - where all the crazy B/Aers live. But anyways, we obsessive B/Aers are well, obsessive, so I thought I'd join in on this conversation with some information for you all. First of all the finale - (titled Chosen, btw)

Some of you seemed to think it leaned more towards B/S than B/A. Maybe it seemed that way, but I have evidence that proves otherwise. First, the shooting script. Very pro B/A, but I won't post it as other stuff is better. Joss has said that he included Angel (in scenes exclusively with Buffy) so audience would know they're relationship wasn't over - he wanted to pay homage to it in the finale because it was such a large part of the show. He's also said he could never really give closure to their relationship. He also said that "Buffy and Angel's relationship transcends *everything.*" Yeah, he really said that.

And while Joss hasn't commented personally on his intentions with romance in the finale, both Jane Espenson (a BtVS writer and huge Spike/Buffy fan) and James Marsters (Spike) have. Jane said that in Joss' canon (so - the *real* canon) "Buffy loves (current tense) Angel, not Spike." And James has said at practically every convention this summer (at least five) that the finale was meant to show that Buffy is still in love with Angel and that she was not in love with Spike - that she didn't even really love him. James said that Spike's "No you don't" to Buffy's I Love You was dead on.

Also, after filming the episodes in April, both SMG and DB said in many, many interviews how wonderful it had been to work with one another again. SMG said working with David was like slipping back into your favorite pair of jeans and DB said that their connection on screen just came back to life and that "they rocked it."

Also, Sarah did a few interviews where she said that she thinks Buffy and Angel's story is in no way over, and that she thinks their love was the truest love and that she wants to see more stories with them. David Boreanaz said "we all know Buffy and Angel will end up together."

Joss Whedon said last week that they're hoping to get Sarah for 'episodes' (notice the plural) during sweeps, and that she's very willing, but the schedules need to mesh. So no matter what, I think she'll be there for the series finale, whether that's this year or years' after. Sarah Michelle Gellar has always been a huge activist for Buffy and Angel - never said anything bad against them. David, however, has always spouted the company party line, so for him to say 'they know' Buffy and Angel will end up together? The chances for more B/A kisses in the future (or hell, just scenes) are pretty darn optimistic.

Hope that was informative! I feel like I rambled forever.

Kimberline

ETA: Here's some of the interview snippets.

"The Buffy/Angel 'ship is the truly mythic one." - Tim Minear, the Angel showrunner

"Buffy is the One True One. The Meant To Be. In my bones, I feel like all roads lead back to her for Angel." - Tim Minear again

--------------------

SMG on DB and B/A: (in the finale)

"There's definitely a connection between Buffy and Angel. It's love in it's truest and most pure form."

"There's always been a connection for David and I both personally and professionally. And it was like your best pair of jeans, you just fit right back into them."

SMG on AtS Crossovers: (TVguide and Extra)

"There is unfinished business between Buffy and Angel and we were lucky enough that The WB was kind enough to let us have David [Boreanz] for our last two episodes here. And that is certainly something that I would like to be able to do over there also. I think there's still a lot of Buffy and Angel's story to be told."

"Absolutely. We've already talked about one for next year, but everything is a matter of timing and story."

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DB on (there was a section on Buffy's romances) B/A: (TVGuide)

WHAT CLICKED: "They're both champions. They connect whether in the middle of a battle, an argument or at the height of passion."

IS HE BUFFY's TRUE LOVE: "Yes. I don't see anything else beyond that relationship. We know they'll end up together."

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James Marsters on the Finale:
(Someone asked about Buffy saying 'I love you' to Spike and then Spike saying, 'No you don't.') "It's true (the no you don't)," Marsters insisted. "It's the truth and he shows his manhood by saying so. Yeah. I thought that what the final episode did very well was admit that Buffy really is in love with Angel. That the sexual relationship she had with Spike was unhealthy. That it was unwise."

Joss Whedon: "The Buffy Angel relationship transcends everything. I needed to bring David back to touch on it in the finale."

.... And I have more, but I'm tired and probably boring 99% of the people who are still reading this. But if by chance anyone *is* interested, I can always tell you more. I. Am. Obsessed. *g*

Okay - I'm outie!

 

[Azalea]

Wow, that's a lot of evidence! You should become a lawyer! (Of course, I doubt you'll get many cases involving Buffy-related issues, but you never know... )

Actually, I agree. I mean, I like Spike/JM better, and I think Buffy was in love with him, but I think she'll probably end up with Angel. And it felt like that's pretty much how they left it on the finale, too, with the whole "cookie dough" analogy.

 

[verdantheart]

B/S didn't make a good couple, really, because Buffy treated Spike so very poorly. Just because he was "evil" and compliant she thought it was OK to treat him--well--almost literally like a dildo. Grab him when she got an itch and throw him in a dark corner and try to forget him when she was satisfied . . .

 

[Azalea]

Spike the Dildo...Now that's an image I'll never be able to get out of my head. :rotflmao: But a great analogy, nonetheless.

 

[vaughn=delicious]

B/S didn't make a good couple, really, because Buffy treated Spike so very poorly. Just because he was "evil" and compliant she thought it was OK to treat him--well--almost literally like a dildo. Grab him when she got an itch and throw him in a dark corner and try to forget him when she was satisfied . . .

That may be true but Spike did try to rape Buffy and that must have has an effect on her.

 

[verdantheart]

That may be true but Spike did try to rape Buffy and that must have has an effect on her.

That was after she treated him that way . . . and repeatedly behaved in an ambiguous no-means-yes way. Was it wrong? Absolutely!!!!!! Was it understandable? Absolutely. I mean, hey, evil. And he was really trying too, y'know.
-_-

 

[vaughn=delicious]

That was after she treated him that way . . . and repeatedly behaved in an ambiguous no-means-yes way. Was it wrong? Absolutely!!!!!! Was it understandable? Absolutely. I mean, hey, evil. And he was really trying too, y'know.

Yeah, your right!! But Buffy was way nicer to Spike in season 7.

 

[crazy spinster]

That may be true but Spike did try to rape Buffy and that must have has an effect on her.

That was after she treated him that way . . . and repeatedly behaved in an ambiguous no-means-yes way. Was it wrong? Absolutely!!!!!! Was it understandable? Absolutely. I mean, hey, evil. And he was really trying too, y'know.
-_-

i don't know if that justifies rape though. despite the way she treated him, she didn't deserve spike forcing himself on her. nobody "deserves" rape (even if it's just an attempt).

this scene always made me feel very ambivalent. because i really liked spike's character and just felt like this was going waaay out of it. i mean, i could see where the rage and frustration was coming from (buffy's poor treatment of him), but i think the rape attempt just went a little too far.

 

[verdantheart]

i don't know if that justifies rape though. despite the way she treated him, she didn't deserve spike forcing himself on her. nobody "deserves" rape (even if it's just an attempt).

Did I say it was "justified"? I don't think so! I believe I said it was "wrong." I said, however, that it was "understandable," and I stand by that. It was. Buffy repeatedly said "no," then let him in and clearly enjoyed herself. That kind of ambiguous behavior invites problems. Say a sports figure invites you into his hotel room. Do you go, expecting no advances to ensue? I don't!

 

[vaughn=delicious]

I did feel sorry for James in the rape scene though he would have been so hard to do. There was an article in the Buffy magazine, it was an interview with James and he said that that scene was great for his courier but it was the most difficult to act.

 

[crazy spinster]

That kind of ambiguous behavior invites problems.

i just personally feel like that sort of explanation is just a hop, skip, and two steps away from the most commonly used just belief theory of rape: "she dressed (or acted) provocatively so she brought it upon herself." i could never see how rape would be "understandable." i just can't bring myself to understand that kind of violence.

and i don't see that really coming from spike either. yes, he was a vampire, but it just seemed so out of character for him. i think there could have been a better way to have buffy realize just how much she had mistreated spike than to resort to a rape attempt.

 

[verdantheart]

An established pattern of behavior between a couple is not a simplistic "she brought it on herself" statement. And I am certainly not one of those people who believe that men have no control over themselves and all women should wear burkas. That demeans both men and women, IMHO. Why do you think it's nearly impossible to establish rape between a man and wife, for example? It's because their relationship is so involved and established that you'd have to look into their minds to discover what they were thinking to establish guilt.

When a woman says "no" to a man and means "yes" (turns around and kisses him, comes to his crypt, gets into bed with him)--and then, later, says "no" and means "no," at what point is the man to know that the "no" means "no"? Is he, somehow, supposed to read her mind? Meanwhile, you have possibly intense emotions conflicting with clear thinking (clearly that was happening on Buffy, along with the usual no-communication thing happening).

Like I said. Did Buffy deserve it? No, she did not! But by treating Spike the way she did and by behaving ambiguously (saying no and then turning aroung and having various forms of sex with him), she put herself in a risky situation. Do you think the rape attempt would ever have happened if she hadn't put herself in that situation? This does not make her responsible for it! It just means she made a big mistake. Can you honestly say she made no mistakes there? C'mon.
-_-

 

[K. Ackles]

I dunno if I think she was raped to be perfectly honest. She's the slayer for crying out loud! She coulda beaten the felgercarb out of Spike! I think she made a mistake, but she did it willingly at the time. Have ppl never done that before? That doesn't make it rape, that makes Buffy acting like an idiot.

 

[crazy spinster]

Meanwhile, you have possibly intense emotions conflicting with clear thinking (clearly that was happening on Buffy, along with the usual no-communication thing happening).

okay, i watched the scene again, and i can see what you're saying. at the end of the scene, it almost seemed as if spike didn't even know what he had just done. well, that's sort of the wrong phrasing. it obviously seemed as if rape wasn't exactly in his head when he was doing what he was doing until he got kicked acrossed the room and started to come to his senses and mumbled, "i didn't mean..."

It just means she made a big mistake. Can you honestly say she made no mistakes there? C'mon.

yes, she DID make mistakes. i never disputed that. i just think there could have been another way to have buffy realize her mistakes, such as an epiphany or some soul-searching or whatever. but, of course, the rape scene was good for dramatic effect. and having an epiphany while conversing with willow or xander or whoever probably wouldn't have been as sensational but would have been just as effective, in my opinion. i just don't think the scene should have happened in the first place. just like i disagree with killing tara off in order to release willow's evil side. i think killing tara was not necessary for that just like i think attempting to rape buffy was not necessary for her to come to that realization. both cases are examples of going to the extreme and i guess on a show like buffy, pushing the envelope is a bit of a trademark. but i disagree with going to the extreme when it involves a significant departure from a character's personality (or completely removes the character in question, like tara).

I dunno if I think she was raped to be perfectly honest. She's the slayer for crying out loud! She coulda beaten the felgercarb out of Spike! 

she wasn't raped. it was an attempt. and she did kick him across the room.

 

[verdantheart]

Actually, I think that the writers (or certain writers) put in the rape scene to restore sympathy for Buffy. Frankly, Spike had been getting a great deal of sympathy (and understandably so! considering the abuse he was taking) up til then. (I also read a quote from Marsters that it almost made him physically ill to do it.)

 

[Sovereign_m]

i said xander and anya, cause anya was funny and really think at times

 

[sydney4vaughn]

how cud it not be buffy and angel, they are destined to be together!!

 

[K. Ackles]

I also read a quote from Marsters that it almost made him physically ill to do it.

Good, that means the guy has good moral qualities, and a decent taste in women. Okay, maybe some ppl like her, but she isn't my cup of tea.

 

[verdantheart]

Good, that means the guy has good moral qualities, and a decent taste in women. Okay, maybe some ppl like her, but she isn't my cup of tea.

I don't know much about him . . . he seems to be enjoying the attention that being Spike has gotten him. Someone said once "He calls them [the groupies, I guess] 'girlfriends'--isn't that cute?" He seems to honestly like women, anyway, and that seems to come across in his performance.

 

[Agent Kernaghan]

Are you guys blind or what? :blink: Willow and Tara is (was) the best couple!!