Season 4 Forgiveness is a tricky thing

V

verdantheart

Guest
[I apologize for the lateness of this column . . . this is what happens when I unexpectedly have to go out to dinner on Thursday night . . . a friend in town . . . ;)]

“Ice” opens as Weiss sends an incompetent “agent,” Derrick Modell Sydney’s way. He complains that he’s cold, and it turns out that he’s swallowed the weapon that he’s delivering. Meanwhile, Vaughn and Dixon spot enemy agents closing in and Sydney must escape with Modell. They are stunned as his leg snaps off and he is finally shattered when shot.

In LA, Sydney tells Vaughn that he looks terrible--a bad night? It turns out that Modell was killed by the weapon he swallowed, a substance that freeze-dries--crystallizes--tissues. The container was never meant to be swallowed and began leaking almost immediately. Apparently the weapon, “Ice 5,” is the latest baby of “evil genius” Fenton Keane, who has moved to Montenegro to pretend legitimacy. Sloane assigns Sydney to pretend to be a relief worker from the UK branch of Omnifam to infiltrate his hospital cover there.

Vaughn trails Jack and tells him he’s not sleeping. He mentions that he sees Lauren sometimes and that it happened at the market. He asks if that happened to Jack--with Irina. Jack says tersely that “It did. Now it doesn’t.”

Back at Sydney’s house, Nadia is looking at Sydney’s pictures of Irina, replacements from Jack. She finds one of Irina holding a baby, but Sydney can’t tell her much about it.

In Montenegro, Sydney is oriented by a woman named Kiera MacLane.

Back in LA, Nadia, Marshall, and Weiss speculate about what people would want to do with Ice 5 and Nadia proposes coming up a list of potential buyers.

Sydney is investigating a supply closet when Kiera spots her. But as she is trotting out her cover story, an emergency breaks out--it’s an accident involving Ice 5. Sydney gets curious, but Kiera shuts her out. Meanwhile, Sydney reads the code to a security door. Now all they need is the swipe card.

Jack refines Nadia’s list of potential clients for Ice 5, and Nadia shows him the picture of Irina and the baby, asking if he knows who the baby is. Jack asks where she got the photo, and says “There’s nothing to tell.”

Vaughn has Dixon work him over so that he can visit the emergency room, posing as a priest. Sydney lifts the swipe card, which Dixon duplicates. Meanwhile, Vaughn flirts with Kiera, telling her that he hears “confession” every afternoon at Tavern Nikolai. As they are talking, Kiera’s brother shows up--and it’s Fenton Keane.

As they’re talking, Sydney enters the secured area and collects her samples. She hides as Keane comes through and discovers that there are canisters of Ice 5 as well as vials. Through a window she sees that they are experimenting with aerosols.

They report back to APO, where they are naturally concerned with the potential of the weapon. They have re-identified Kiera MacLane as Megan Keane, but Vaughn is confident that he can turn her.

He meets Kiera in Tavern Nikolai, where she admits that she feels trapped. She tells him that she’s never been able to say no to her brother--that it’s her shame. Vaughn tells her the story of Lauren, of his rage for her, what he did, how his actions haunt him. But he tells her that there’s another way for her--to make him go away--that night.

Nadia stops by Sloane’s office to deliver a file and show him the photo. Sloane tells her how private Irina was and how brief their time was together--but he is reluctant to return the photo.

Vaughn and Kiera meet that night, but Kiera has told her brother about the meeting and Vaughn is taken prisoner. Fenton suggests injecting Ice 5 into Vaughn’s brain (something he’s never tried), but settles on having Kiera inject it into Vaughn’s eye. As Kiera hesitates and Vaughn tries to convince her to change her mind, Sydney breaks and stops her. She fights off Fenton. As she frees Vaughn, he grabs the syringe, but he injects Kiera.

“Forgive . . .” she says to Vaughn. Vaughn reminds her that he’s not a real priest. “No--I forgive--I forgive you,” she gasps.

In LA, Jack tells Nadia that Fenton Keane has been taken into custody. He asks to see the photo again, and tells Nadia that Irina showed him this picture and told him that it was her niece, and expressed her own “longing and hope to have children of her own.” Jack says the next day he proposed marriage. Jack says, “So, for me, I choose to believe. But then, I suppose each of use needs to find our own sense of closure.”

On the plane back from Montenegro, Sydney reminds Vaughn, “You can talk to me.” Vaughn falls asleep.


Analysis . . .

Ice . . . now what is frozen here? There’s always Jack, whose first reaction to something that challenges the emotions is almost always to freeze over. But “ice” might refer to the stasis of feeling trapped:

Kiera: Love the sinner, hate the sin, isn’t that what they say? . . . A long time ago, he saved me. I owe him.

Vaughn: But he scares you.

K: You don’t know Fenton. He’s done some awful things.

V: I know what it’s like to fell trapped . . . (He goes on to talk about Lauren) She betrayed me. She betrayed a lot of people. And when I found out what she had done, I let my hate for her consume me. And I began to wish the woman I loved was dead . . . . That woman was evil . . . and deserved to be punished, so I killed her. And although that woman was the worst kind of evil, I also know that killing her was wrong. I don’t sleep much. I can’t even close my eyes without seeing it--that moment, that look on her face. She never leaves me. She won’t.

K: Forgiveness is a tricky thing, isn’t it? Even God won’t do it if you won’t let him. I’ve never been able to say no too--to my brother. I’m not alone in that, but it’s my shame. It’s the one thing I can’t forgive myself for. I understand what it feels like to wish someone was-- I just wish there was a way out.

Both Kiera and Vaughn are trapped in different ways. Both feel a need for forgiveness, but Kiera is trapped inside, Vaughn outside. By this, I mean that Kiera has linked herself to someone who continually demands terrible things of her--she is inside a situation that never ends. Fenton is her cage. Vaughn, on the other hand, has put an end to his tormentor (Lauren), but that has not ended his torment. The guilt of the wrong action of killing her remains with him. His guilt becomes a wall that springs up between him and life, cutting him off from the warmth and comfort of sleep, companionship, perhaps eventually love. Kiera points out that you have to accept forgiveness--how can you ever be forgiven, if you do not accept it?

Kiera gives Vaughn his forgiveness--whether he accepts it or not. And Vaughn, at last, can find some moments of sleep. Can he at last let Lauren go?

Sydney realizes that Vaughn is telling a complete stranger the things that he felt unable (too frozen?) to tell her. What was it? The admission that he loved Lauren? That he felt guilt over killing her, no matter how he might be able to justify it? Vaughn burnt his house down, but that gesture could not erase the reality of the past. Vaughn attempted to simply move on after Sydney’s apparent death found only the disaster of Lauren; moving on from Lauren has proved even more problematic. The thought of discussing it with a woman so intimately involved with his emotional dilemmas perhaps has contributed to a sense of stalemate.

In any case, Kiera, a woman who can’t forgive herself for her devotion to her unforgivable brother, grants forgiveness to Vaughn--is it for Vaughn’s attempt to turn her against her brother, or for his crime--or both? In any case, her forgiveness grants Vaughn enough peace to relax and rest--at least for a little while.

On to the baby in Irina’s arms. Who is it? Well, good question--certainly one that isn’t answered, and one for which we have insufficient information for reasonable speculation. Jack at first rebuffs Nadia with a quick “There’s nothing to tell,” which is basically what Sloane gives her. Finally Jack returns with the tale that Irina showed him the picture claiming that it was her niece, leading Jack to propose the next day.

Jack says “I choose to believe,” which, as a sort of metatextual comment on the scene, can be said for all of us. In the limited context of facts that we have available to us, we can choose to believe what we want. We can believe Jack’s story or not--and if we believe his story, by extension, we can choose to believe Irina’s story or not.

But let’s look at the possibilities. The baby could be unrelated, a fabrication, a nice tale told by Irina to induce Jack to propose--his reluctance to tell the story simply based on his reluctance to expose his emotions to anyone, let alone someone who might have reason to dig into him at a later date. Or, the baby could indeed be a niece, just as Irina said. Or, what if the baby is Nadia herself (it somehow felt to me that Nadia was fishing around for just such an answer)? How would Jack have come into possession of such a photo? Wasn’t Irina supposed to be in prison at the time? Hm. And then there’s always the possibility that it’s Irina’s--but not Nadia or Sydney. If so, what has become of the baby?

OK, let’s assume that it is a relative and Jack knows something. What was he doing giving the photo to Sydney? That was uncharacteristically careless of him, wouldn’t you say? Sloane’s behavior was a bit suspicious in that he seemed reluctant to give up the photo.

What do I choose to believe? At this point (having avoided spoilers), that there was a baby in Irina’s arms at some point when a photo was taken. We don’t have enough to point any particular direction so far.


Random thoughts . . .

Forgiveness . . . now there’s a theme that ports beautifully from Angel to Alias.

Hm . . . relatively short column . . . guess there wasn't too much to write about.


Discuss . . .

Why do you think it’s so much easier for Vaughn to talk to Kiera about Lauren that to Sydney?

Do you think Kiera’s forgiveness helped Vaughn?

Do you think that Vaughn and Sydney were naïve in thinking that Vaughn could turn Kiera? Why or why not?

Do you think that Vaughn could have turned Kiera if he’d had more time? Or was it hopeless?

Sydney knows what it is like to be in a family in which some members do terrible things. Think of what her mother has done--and what her father has felt compelled to do in response to what her mother has done. Do you think that she is capable of considering Vaughn’s need for forgiveness and then broadening that to apply to her family? (I know, but I’m asking anyway. ;))

Who do you think the baby in the photo is?

Do you think Jack knows who the baby is? If so, why do you think Jack gave the photo to Sydney? Is that careless of him?

Do you believe Jack’s story about the photo (that could be true even if he found out who the baby is later on)? Why?

Do you think Sloane knows who the baby in the photo is? Why do you think he wanted to keep the photo?


Next:
The couple that slays together stays together?


Modifications: Rephrased discussion question regarding Sydney her ability to forgive her family.
 
Oh wow! First to reply?

~*~*~*~*~*~*

Do you think Kiera’s forgiveness helped Vaughn?

Kiera was Vaughn's key to forgiveness...I think he needed to hear it from someone in order to solidify the path of peace he seeks. The question is: Is Vaughn looking for forgiveness from Sydney?

Who do you think the baby in the photo is?

At this point... anyone. It can be Irina's niece or it could've been another deceptive plot to gain Jack's love/trust in Irina's mission/endgame with the KGB.

Do you think Jack knows who the baby is? If so, why do you think Jack gave the photo to Sydney? Is that careless of him?

Now that is a tricky question....considering Jack's actions so far....I think Jack wants to believe Irina's original explaination of the picture. Is it careless of him? Perhaps. Perhaps not. I believe that Jack is trying to fix the relationship with his daughter and perhaps Nadia is the key to unlocking that closed door of ice between them. He he'll go by any means of doing so -- whether or not they are "acceptable" means of doing so.

Do you believe Jack’s story about the photo (that could be true even if he found out who the baby is later on)? Why?


I think I pretty much covered that in the previous answer. I think there is that fine line between truth and deception. I can't always believe what Jack says...up until now (S1-present) Jack has shown numerous times that he is not always the most truthful person.

Do you think Sloane knows who the baby in the photo is? Why do you think he wanted to keep the photo?

I do think Sloane knows who the baby is and therefore this will lead him to wanting to keep the photo. A personal link perhaps?

~*~*~*~*

Those are my 2 cents worth...Great column, V!

Until next time!
^_^ Crys
 
Why do you think it’s so much easier for Vaughn to talk to Kiera about Lauren that to Sydney?
well here is an interesting thought: ok what if v was just using kiera as an outlet to talk to syd. i mean talking about those things face to face with syd would be... uncomfortable to say the least - but V knew Syd was listening so... maybe that conversation was a way for him to express those feeling to her and to try and help get Keira on their side...


Who do you think the baby in the photo is?
Let's face it: this is alias - its anybody's guess because there are sooooooooo many variables involved you'd have to make a hell of alot of assumptions to even begin to figure it out
so in summary: no i aint got no clue! lol

Do you think Jack knows who the baby is? If so, why do you think Jack gave the photo to Sydney? Is that careless of him?
Jack careless?! HA! never!
Jack could never ever be careless - well i suppose there is a first tiem for everything but... nah
i do think jack knows tho - maybe sloane does too

Do you believe Jack’s story about the photo (that could be true even if he found out who the baby is later on)? Why?
uhhh sure why not
i mean he said there was nothing to tell about the photo - he could have left it that way but he chose to go back to nadia and make a comment like that about the photo... so could it really be irina's niece? sure
could it be that sydney and nadia have an older sibling? sure -- haha now theres a family tree on crack if ive ever seen one
one thing we know for sure: irina is a woman of many secrets and we only know about.. 1/100th of them ;)

Do you think Sloane knows who the baby in the photo is? Why do you think he wanted to keep the photo?
his behavior certainly was odd... perhaps he thought it was a picture of irina & nadia and would therefore want to keep a picture of his infant daughter being cradled by her mother but... who knows

The couple that slays together stays together?
hahah lets hope so ;)
although it didn't work out that well for buffy and angel did it? :thinking: o well i was a shipper anyway :P
 
Another fabulous column, V! ^_^

Why do you think it’s so much easier for Vaughn to talk to Kiera about Lauren that to Sydney?
Their history. And the fact that Sydney was also on the receiving end of what Lauren's destructiveness. How can Vaughn talk to Sydney about his inner conflict over killing Lauren, if Sydney probably feels the same way he does toward her?

Do you think Kiera’s forgiveness helped Vaughn?
Well, that he is finally able to sleep is evidence that it did, I think.

Do you think that Vaughn and Sydney were naïve in thinking that Vaughn could turn Kiera? Why or why not?
Yes because he was going to try to do it in a period of minutes, perhaps an hour, while she has been smothered by her brother her entire life. Not to mention she has familial ties to him. I think there was no way they were going to turn her given the amount of time they had to do so.

Do you think that Vaughn could have turned Kiera if he’d had more time? Or was it hopeless?
Yes, given lots more time. Since she really did want out, eventually. But she might have needed a psychologist's help -- because Kiera's ties to her brother (other than thru blood) were psychological in nature... She felt like she "owed" him, but at the same time felt guilty for what she was doing to help him. Classic psych stuff. Vaughn himself may not have had the power to "turn" her (release her from her ties to her brother).

Sydney knows what it is like to be in a family in which some members do terrible things. Think of what her mother has done--and what her father has felt compelled to do in response to what her mother has done. Do you think that she considered Vaughn’s need for forgiveness and then broadened that with regard to her family? (Yes, and I’m asking anyway.)
Tough one... lol in case you haven't noticed I'm not very good with the psychological questions... ;) (I'm also not exactly sure what you're asking... that she forgave her father?)

Who do you think the baby in the photo is?
Nadia? Maybe? OR! Could be Yelena! :smiley: If there is a big enough age gap between the sisters... lol But I admit that's a stretch. :D

Do you think Jack knows who the baby is? If so, why do you think Jack gave the photo to Sydney? Is that careless of him?
I think he knows. So does Sloane. He either didn't think Nadia would get a hold of it, or he placed it there purposefully so that either she or Sydney would find it and ask questions... Like, it's part of his "big plan." :P

Do you believe Jack’s story about the photo (that could be true even if he found out who the baby is later on)? Why?
Nah. I dunno. His reaction was too weird. He either knows who it is, or he doesn't, but there is something very important to him linked to that picture or the fact that Nadia found it/started asking questions.

Do you think Sloane knows who the baby in the photo is? Why do you think he wanted to keep the photo?
Yes. He doesn't want Nadia to know who it is. Something in his reaction compared to Jack's tells me it has something to do with their relationship (Jack/Sloane). Maybe Jack wants Nadia to know who it is and Sloane doesn't, because of the identity of the baby... Though why, I haven't the foggiest...
 
Why do you think it’s so much easier for Vaughn to talk to Kiera about Lauren that to Sydney?

I agree that it has to do with sydney also being involved in the whole thing. i mean, one of the reasons vaughn killed lauren was not only her betrayal of vauhgn, but also that in a way, she had to do with him not being able to be with sydney. lauren obviously did not love vaughn, making it even harder for vaughn to come to the terms that he wasted his love on a woman who didn't even care, while sydney was suffering on account of him. i have no idea if this made any sense...i hope it did! anyway, sydney was just too closely involved in the whole mess...sometimes it's easier to talk to someone who doesn't judge you for your past mistakes!

Who do you think the baby in the photo is?

Ok, me personally...i think it's nadia...because i've always felt that nadia is truly syd's sister and jack and irina's daughter! my reasons: sloane loved his wife too much to EVER have an affair! i know irina is manipulative, but sloane is a smart man and i think he'd see past irina's motives. i just keep remembering the season two episode "truth takes time" where sloane was gonna give up his whole thing with rambaldi just to be with emily...does that sound like a man who has an affair??? i don't know...but that's my reason. another reason is, now don't hurt me for saying this, but i don't think irina would betray jack in that way either. she said her love for jack was not a contrivance...i know she's manipulative and has betrayed so many people, but why would she have an affair with sloane...there doesn't seem to me to be a solid reason for it! so, i think the pic is nadia...now does jack know...who knows??? i think sloane is obviously hiding something...maybe that it is nadia and that she is jack's daughter! ok, sorry for these long answers, but these are my theories! :smiley:
 
verdantheart said:
Discuss . . .

Why do you think it’s so much easier for Vaughn to talk to Kiera about Lauren that to Sydney?
partially because sydney may feel a sense of responsibility for lauren's death... vaughn did shoot lauren to save her... but also just because its often easier to confess to someone you don't know, there aren't such heavy ramifications.

Do you think Kiera’s forgiveness helped Vaughn?
i'm not sure. i suppose the obvious answer is yes, because he was able to sleep at the end of the episode. but lets not let it be lost that it was sydney he was sleeping next to. and i noticed the look on vaughn's face when kiera forgave him... he seemed confused, not relieved.

Do you think that Vaughn and Sydney were naïve in thinking that Vaughn could turn Kiera? Why or why not?
nope, not at all. it was fairly obvious that she wasn't crazy about her brothers action, and she had a heavy sense of guilt.

Do you think that Vaughn could have turned Kiera if he’d had more time? Or was it hopeless?
i think she would have turned. she wasn't cold blooded. you saw her hesitation when she was instructed to inject vaughn. i was fairly suprised that she didn't inject her brother at that moment, instead, but the writers took it a different way.

Sydney knows what it is like to be in a family in which some members do terrible things. Think of what her mother has done--and what her father has felt compelled to do in response to what her mother has done. Do you think that she considered Vaughn’s need for forgiveness and then broadened that with regard to her family? (Yes, and I’m asking anyway.)
I'm a little bit confused by this question. I'm assuming that you're asking if she understands vaughn's remorse because of her own past experience? if so, yes, she knows what its like to need to be forgiven (remember when she killed the irishman's brother at the beginning of her time as julia thorne, only to have him retaliate by putting a bomb on a plane?) and to be the one that does the forgiving. my question is this, though: whom does vaughn really need to be forgiven by to really be at peace?

Who do you think the baby in the photo is?
anna espinosa! just kidding. a third sibling that is a spy in some other country due to some variance on project xmas. wait, maybe it really IS anna espinosa. whoa, that'd be crazy.

Do you think Jack knows who the baby is? If so, why do you think Jack gave the photo to Sydney? Is that careless of him?
Jack always says he's looking out for her, but he manipulates her at times, too. my guess is that he wanted her to go digging. OR jack didn't really give it to her at all, syd found it somewhere else (jack was incredulous when nadia showed him the picture, asking where she got it... you'd think he'd know she got it from sydney, they're roommates, after all).

Do you believe Jack’s story about the photo (that could be true even if he found out who the baby is later on)? Why?
Nope. He should have had an immediate answer. He took too long to formulate it.

Do you think Sloane knows who the baby in the photo is? Why do you think he wanted to keep the photo?
I'm sure he knows. He knew Irina and Jack well at the time. As to why he wanted to keep the photo, i have NO idea.

Next:
The couple that slays together stays together?
Yeah Buddy!  :lol:
[post="1174714"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]​
 
First I must say thanks, thanks, thanks for doing these columns. I have read them all and they are still the best on Alias around to me. :flowers:

Unfortunately this year has been stretching for me were in past years very few shows appealed to me leaving most of my fan time for Alias and a bit for Joan of Arcadia.

Now I have Veronica Mars, Lost, Desperate Housewives and the New Battlestar Galactica as big interests and there are many other good shows out there now. So I have been distracted getting back in the grove with my first and biggest love Alias. I am not just talking about myself here I am also mentioning this as a recommendation for others to watch.

On prior columns and the opening secrets.

(as posted in part elsewhere)
If things are as presented in the season opener then I will end up disappointed somewhat. But to me things were so clearly off what we knew at the end of last season that I assumed we were being fed lots of red herring and so I greatly enjoyed the opener.

I don’t think the SAB documents had much if anything to do with the killing unless they contained the background of the motive for Irina killing Sydney. Lauren was clearly talking about some sort of manipulation of Sydney and Nadia and the SAB title and what we saw clearly refers to something that concerned Sydney at the time of her birth which was major news to Sydney not something she already knew like she told Vaughn. SAB is probably connected to the Rambaldi prophecy concerning Sydney and Nadia.

So the whole thing smelled very fishy in the season opener. I love fishy spy stories. So unless JJ and writers have really declined in their abilities I doubt things will turn out as stated.

Does this mean Irina is really alive? Probably depends on Lena Olin’s availability next year for season five or six. As far as the current plot wether Irina is alive or dead I am sure things are not as portrayed regardless of Irina’s status.

Sloane has had so much dirt on the US government that it was no surprise to me that along with his Rambaldi device trade that he got a job. superintelligentone did a wonderful job of explaining this more in death. I see this as just a continuation of Slaone’s pardon last year he got both job and pardon by knowing where bodies are buried and trading wanted items.

Sloane had Sydney’s fiancee kill along with France so she has just as much if not more reason than Dixion to hate him. It has been some time sense the incidents so I assume the anger is colder (maybe just as strong just not as impulsive, Sydney and Dixion are more in the revenge is a dish served cold mood now) So I believed both not walking out when confronting Sloane. As long as they make sure to show clues that Syd and Dixion still hate Sloane and are just waiting to destroy him I’ll believe the current situation.

Plus I have also wondered if one of Rambaldi’s devices is capable of subtle mind manipulation thus explaining some of Sloane’s supper worm his way back in powers.

On too current I loved the episode and the opportunity to flesh out the Vaughn character. If there had been start of the relationship flashbacks last season to establish Vaughn’s feelings at the time that he married and before Sydney was known back alive this would have been better (or an indication that the love was a result of brainwashing). With a better background I could have empathized with Vaughn better. (But as JJ said [summation of comments] last season veered away from character first to a plot focus)

I wonder about Jack’s goal her is. He gave the photo’s to Sydney. Jack told Nadia that he was told the baby was a niece. I strongly think Jack would only say that if he wanted Sydney and Nadia to realize they have an unknown niece out there unless off camera both of them have already been filed in on the status of the Irina side of the Family. I find it unlikely that when Jack did his research on Irina and found out about her sisters that he did not find out the truth of the photo of a possible niece as part of his background check.

I like the other posters jokes about it being baby Lauren or Sark. :P

I personally now have this mental image of a huge Russan Derevko clan so that Sydney has dozens of Russan relatives. ^_^

I also joke that Jack is so cool that he deserves to have at least one kid by all three of the sisters. :cool:
 
Hey V,

I can't believe we were on the same wave length...I posted a column on Thursday at another site and the title was...."Forgiveness is a tricky thing."

I'm not sure that Vaughn is ready to give up his angst so readily with Kiera's forgivness. He has a lot to think about, just as Jack has over the years. I was hoping that he could turn her, but knowing Alias's twists and turns I wasn't about to take the best.

I've watched it twice and I think Jack and Sloane may know the baby, but the picture of IRina is that of a young woman, probably 19-20. It could be her baby.
OR
It could be a relative's...older sister, Katya? Yelena? maybe...I smell another Derevko on the horizon...good or bad, probably the latter due to the dearth of female bad girls so far.

I think Jack was telling the whole or slightly partial truth. First, he doesn't and then he does. Sloane certainly looked as if he'd like to have the picture, but I don't think it was the baby. It couldn't be Nadia or Sydney. ... so we'll have to be patient because I'm sure the baby will turn up sooner or later.

:cool:
 
WHOA WHOA WHOA, JUST remembered something!!!
Remember in season three, episode 12 (crossings) when Jack meets Katya? He calls her by Yakatarina, a name she says she hasn't been called since she was a child... which then leads her to deduce that Irina didn't tell him about her. He responds (bear with me, there's a point here) with something along the lines of learning his wife was a traitor led him to find out almost everything he could about her....
SHE never told him she had sisters. thus how could she have told him she had a neice? JACK WAS LYING ABOUT THE BABY IN THE PICTURE in this episode (4x04).
WHOA. hella just put that all together.
*elf* :woot:
 
aliasbrat03 said:
WHOA WHOA WHOA, JUST remembered something!!!
Remember in season three, episode 12 (crossings) when Jack meets Katya? He calls her by Yakatarina, a name she says she hasn't been called since she was a child... which then leads her to deduce that Irina didn't tell him about her. He responds (bear with me, there's a point here) with something along the lines of learning his wife was a traitor led him to find out almost everything he could about her....
SHE never told him she had sisters. thus how could she have told him she had a neice? JACK WAS LYING ABOUT THE BABY IN THE PICTURE in this episode (4x04).
WHOA. hella just put that all together.
*elf* :woot:
[post="1175578"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]​

good point :smiley: and for a spy you would think he would figure that out so it does seem to imply he made the story up for Nadia :smiley:

and now onto verdy;s questions - fabulous column bvtw sweetie (y) .....


Why do you think it’s so much easier for Vaughn to talk to Kiera about Lauren that to Sydney?

I think it because he finds it difficult to admit he loved Lauren to Sydney. I don't think he would have ever looked at another women if Sydney hadn't dissappeared to admit he moved on after Syd's return was tough. Remembering Sydney's speech in The Two and how she said she "would have waited and found out the truth" I think this makes Vaughn feel bad for marrying Lauren at all. I also think he believes that it is not really good starting ground for recommencing his relationship with sydney as it will only bring back upsetting memories for sydney.

Do you think Kiera’s forgiveness helped Vaughn?
well yes I think that is what we were supposed to think as he was sleeping at the end.

Do you think that Vaughn and Sydney were naïve in thinking that Vaughn could turn Kiera? Why or why not?
erm no - I think Vaughn already knew how he was going to do it - find a common ground and take it from there - I also thought Sydney's belief in Vaughn was really nice.

Do you think that Vaughn could have turned Kiera if he’d had more time? Or was it hopeless?
I think if her brother had not showed up it would have been fine. Although in real life I think he swould have had a VERY tough time - turning your back on the IRA is not really something anyone would do - you woulld just be killed anyway.

Who do you think the baby in the photo is?

no idea. its definiteyl not nadia cos she is younger than sydney so how could she be in a photo from before syd was born. maybe another sister???

Do you think Jack knows who the baby is? If so, why do you think Jack gave the photo to Sydney? Is that careless of him?
hmm not sure about this one - but as aliasbrat03 said he couldn't have believed it was Irinas niece since he never knew she had sisters until he fiound out she wsa KGB - so maybe he does know since he obviously lied.

Do you believe Jack’s story about the photo (that could be true even if he found out who the baby is later on)? Why?
no as I already said i agree with aliasbrat03 that he never knew she had sisters so it would be impossible for him to believe it was her niece.

Do you think Sloane knows who the baby in the photo is? Why do you think he wanted to keep the photo?
hmm this was a weird one for sure. no idea. unless the affair was not as brief as we have been told and there are more children. :P
 
aliasfanjay said:
Jack must have known something about Irena's sisters to ask which of them Katya was.
[post="1175582"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]​


yes but this was only after he found out she was KGB. He has previously stated that he didn't know she had sisters when she was Laura Bristow - so if she had told him before they were married the photo was of her and her niece then she would have had to have brothers or sisters - hence jack must have lied to nadia ;)
 
verdantheart said:
Hm . . . relatively short column . . . guess there wasn't too much to write about.

No arguements from me on this point.... :P

Why do you think it’s so much easier for Vaughn to talk to Kiera about Lauren that to Sydney?

Because he loves Sydney and it was obvious that he loved Lauren as well after he opened up to Kiera. And this is a topic that most likely made it a little difficult for him to open up (and admit) to Syd.... But I'm liking Skygirl's theory as well -- maybe it was an easier way to let Syd know how he was actually doing....

Do you think Kiera’s forgiveness helped Vaughn?

Yea I do... and it showed in his face... he needed to do that for himself -- talk to somebody that was completely out of his situation but yet somebody that was in a "somewhat" similar situation...

Do you think that Vaughn and Sydney were naïve in thinking that Vaughn could turn Kiera? Why or why not?

Maybe a little.... It was Kiera's brother after all -- no matter what he has done, he was her family... and that's a tough thing to turn somebody against...

Do you think that Vaughn could have turned Kiera if he’d had more time? Or was it hopeless?

I don't think so... and my answer goes along with the one above it...

Who do you think the baby in the photo is?

Do you believe Jack’s story about the photo (that could be true even if he found out who the baby is later on)? Why?

Who knows who the baby is.... I have an idea though. Is it a niece? I doubt it.... It's kinda like Aliasbrat said above -- he didn't even know about her sisters until he did some digging himself... so why are we to believe that Irina would tell him about a niece....

Do you think Jack knows who the baby is? If so, why do you think Jack gave the photo to Sydney? Is that careless of him?

Yea... I think Jack does know who the baby is... I've always felt that he has known about Nadia all along and the baby could very well be her.... but that wouldn't explain Katya's story about Nadia being taken from Irina right away... if that's true, why would their be a picture of them together -- but are we even to believe Katya?.... Jeessshhh... who can you believe anymore... :lol:

Maybe Jack is giving Sydney clues to the answers she has so desperately been seeking.... about her mother, about him.....

Do you think Sloane knows who the baby in the photo is? Why do you think he wanted to keep the photo?

I don't think he does... and if he really doesn't know, maybe he wanted to do the digging himself... :confused:
 
spychica04 said:
Who do you think the baby in the photo is?

Ok, me personally...i think it's nadia...because i've always felt that nadia is truly syd's sister and jack and irina's daughter!
[post="1175128"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]​
Let me allow that answer to stand for a moment . . .

Milferd said:
First I must say thanks, thanks, thanks for doing these columns. I have read them all and they are still the best on Alias around to me. :flowers:

Unfortunately this year has been stretching for me were in past years very few shows appealed to me leaving most of my fan time for Alias and a bit for Joan of Arcadia.

Now I have Veronica Mars, Lost, Desperate Housewives and the New Battlestar Galactica as big interests and there are many other good shows out there now. So I have been distracted getting back in the grove with my first and biggest love Alias. I am not just talking about myself here I am also mentioning this as a recommendation for others to watch.
Gee, thanks for the vote of confidence! It really helps. And I know what you mean. Even though this board is devoted to Alias, I'm going to indulge for a moment in a detour to discuss this since you brought it up. I began writing these columns because Alias really drew me in and I found myself really cogitating about the themes, ideas, and story directions that were brought up by the series. Season 3 was bumpy--yes, it was still entertaining and better than most TV, but it didn't draw me in in the same way. A story needs a certain richness of character, focus, even vision, to inspire reflection upon the human condition. That's what I'm looking for, really. Enriched perspectives. I'm hoping to feel that I get more of that from Alias again this season . . . last season I felt too much like a critic, and I don't like that.

You mention Lost and Joan of Arcadia, both programs that I watch and which are among my favorites. Many people here are fans of Lost, so I won't go into that. Joan lost some viewers this season, which is too bad, because those who stayed are beginning to reap the rewards of their patience. Those of us who have known "lost causes" should respect the way Joan tackled that subject, even if it was hard . . . but I'm sorry for those who missed the zany "zombie musical" episode. ;) One of the series I most look forward to now is dust-bowl apocalyptic Carnivale--something only a minority could love, I'm afraid! It is still deliberately paced and mysterious, but it is moving more quickly than it's first season. However, I would recommend it for mature audiences only. The long wait for Alias has also given me time to discover a few anime series, which I've found to conceal well-drawn themes, concepts, and characters beneath the action, bluster, and--sometimes--gimmicry.

I like the other posters jokes about it being baby Lauren or Sark. :P

I personally now have this mental image of a huge Russan Derevko clan so that Sydney has dozens of Russan relatives. ^_^
[post="1175293"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]​
Not Lauren, please! :lol: Besides, the baby is dark-haired like Nadia, so what would Lauren be, a changeling? ;) Looks like the Derevkos are coming out of the woodwork . . . :lol:

lenafan said:
I can't believe we were on the same wave length...I posted a column on Thursday at another site and the title was...."Forgiveness is a tricky thing."
[post="1175438"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]​
I usually try to pick a quote, and there weren't many good ones--this one was obvious. ;) You know I wasn't copying because I don't have time to visit other sites. :angelic:

aliasbrat03 said:
WHOA WHOA WHOA, JUST remembered something!!!
Remember in season three, episode 12 (crossings) when Jack meets Katya? He calls her by Yakatarina, a name she says she hasn't been called since she was a child... which then leads her to deduce that Irina didn't tell him about her. He responds (bear with me, there's a point here) with something along the lines of learning his wife was a traitor led him to find out almost everything he could about her....
SHE never told him she had sisters. thus how could she have told him she had a neice? JACK WAS LYING ABOUT THE BABY IN THE PICTURE in this episode (4x04).
WHOA. hella just put that all together.
*elf* :woot:
[post="1175578"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]​
I don't remember. Did Jack say that "Laura" never told him that she had sisters or explicitly told him she didn't have sisters? Obviously if she's posing as an American, she's not going to tell him that her sister's name is Ykaterina! :lol: Need to go back & look . . . ;) (Of course, not having sisters would not preclude her having claimed to have a brother and a niece through that imaginary brother, y'know -_- . . .)

jems said:
Who do you think the baby in the photo is?
no idea.  its definiteyl not nadia cos she is younger than sydney so how could she be in a photo from before syd was born.  maybe another sister???
[post="1176075"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]​
How do we know that the photo is from before Sydney was born? Because Jack says so?
 
SkyGirl5 said:
well here is an interesting thought: ok what if v was just using kiera as an outlet to talk to syd.  i mean talking about those things face to face with syd would be... uncomfortable to say the least - but V knew Syd was listening so... maybe that conversation was a way for him to express those feeling to her and to try and help get Keira on their side...
[post="1174949"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]​

I couldn't agree more. Vaughn seemed to be using Kiera as a conduit to Sydney. For some reason I was reminded of the scene from -eek I can't remember which episode from last year- when Vaughn had to seduce Lauren with Sydney listening... (I'd go check which one, but I'm sure you all know what I'm talking about. ) Personally I hated that episode and scene... I thought they just went way too far, but seeing Syd on the coms, I had a flashback. In as much as he needs to forgive himself, I thought it a rather clever way to bring out into the light that which is so painful for him to discuss with Sydney, thereby asking indirectly for her forgiveness too.
 
WHO IS YELENA?? Someone mentioned that the baby might be Yelena?? I have watched every episode till present and have not pciked up on anyone named Yelena. Please explain!

Also about who the baby is. In episode descriptions it states that Syd learns that she may have another long lost relative, after finding nadia. Well couldnt that baby BE the long lost relative?? If someone has already said this discard my thougt. just saying. thanx.

Cat
 
verdantheart said:
...
You mention Lost and Joan of Arcadia, both programs that I watch and which are among my favorites. Many people here are fans of Lost, so I won't go into that. Joan lost some viewers this season, which is too bad, because those who stayed are beginning to reap the rewards of their patience. Those of us who have known "lost causes" should respect the way Joan tackled that subject, even if it was hard . . . but I'm sorry for those who missed the zany "zombie musical" episode.  ;)

Yes I loved the zombies and Joan’s{Amber’s} singing. And I agree those who left early missed out on a moving storyline when finished.
One of the series I most look forward to now is dust-bowl apocalyptic Carnivale--something only a minority could love, I'm afraid!

I hate that I missed out on that. I have to catch up on that on DVD if I get a chance.

Ronald D. Moore the executive producer for Carnivale is the man responsible for the new Battlestar Galactica so I am doubly interested in Carnivale now. He does spin a dark rich character story, real dark but good.
  The long wait for Alias has also given me time to discover a few anime series, which I've found to conceal well-drawn themes, concepts, and characters beneath the action, bluster, and--sometimes--gimmicry.

I agree I love how rich and adult the background themes can be in anime. I have read that anime is defiantly considered an mainstream media for adults in Japan and not considered just for kids. One I have gotten into recently Mobile Suit Gundam Seed It’s background is a war between genetically modified humans and the normal humans and I can empathize with both sides and there are noble good guys on both sides wrestling with the fact that they may have to kill each other. I don’t know if you could air something like this on US TV because even though at first glance it looks like it’s for kids the FCC would have trouble with the mass killings and things like a shooting down an unarmed shuttle with small children you had seen interacting with the hero just shortly before.
Not Lauren, please!  :lol: Besides, the baby is dark-haired like Nadia, so what would Lauren be, a changeling?  ;)

Who said Lauren was a natural blonde? :P

Yep with Jack when he was lying and when he was telling the truth is always in question. Same with Irina. Maybe as Laura, Irina made up a fake American family background for fooling Jack so the baby could just be borrowed by the KGB for the picture.

Or Jack lied to Katya about not knowing about Irina’s sisters before her betrayal. Or who knows which statement is true, false or somewhere inbetween. It is so much fun to speculate. And although JJ and staff have dropped some ideas on the other hand they have shown that they can go back a season or two and pick up some little noticed detail and make it a big deal now. So with JJ never assume just because something came up once and was never mentioned again that it cannot come up latter even if it is many seasons later.
 
verdantheart said:
Why do you think it’s so much easier for Vaughn to talk to Kiera about Lauren that to Sydney?

I think that it was so much easier for Vaughn to talk about it with Kiera becasure she was a stranger, rather than Syd. Or anyone else for that matter. Sydney was too close to what happened with Lauren. Lauren caused a lot of pain in Syd's life, and that makes her biased towards Lauren. Talking about this with Kiera was so much easier for Vaughn, IMO, because Kiera didn't know Lauren in any way. She can be objective and tell Vaughn what he did right/wrong, rather than Syd justifying Vaughn's actions saying that Lauren was a horrible person and deserved what she got. Kiera doesn't know "Syd" either, or the hell that she was put through because of Lauren. Vaughn has always loved Sydney more than Lauren, even if he did love Lauren on some level. I mean, come on, he did marry her after all. Vaughn is not the type of man to marry someone just because he feels like it. He married her because he loved her and was hoping to find happiness in his life again without Sydney. When he found out that she was working for the Covenant, he was truly upset, angry, and disappointed. If he wasn't it would show that he didn't love Lauren and didn't give a damn what she did. When he killed her this affected him so much, because he loved her and was betrayed. It only makes sense that Vaughn is haunted by what happened. It will take him a while to completely move on from this experience, but in the end I believe that he really will find happiness again with Sydney.


Megan
 
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