Season 4 Forgiveness is a tricky thing
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verdantheart
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I understand that he had to leave Carnivale for Galactica--which is too bad. I really liked his work on Carnivale and on ST: Deep Space Nine, my favorite Trek series.Milferd said:
True enough and when you see them on American TV, you generally see them repackaged: that is, cut and the stories altered for rating (Y7/G) and relatively incomprehensible reasons (apparently to provide more generic comic sidekick support? to make the hero more heroic at the cost of supporting characters?). "Uncut" versions of some anime series are coming out on DVD that include the subtitled Japanese dialog (in some cases, the voice actors are extremely good & well-cast) and a dub that closely follows the original script--and of course, everything is there, including all the violence that is cut for the US/international versions. When you watch the repackaged versions, you have to look harder sometimes to see the themes because of the tinkering . . . and that's too bad. (Knowing what's going to come up, in some cases, it's almost entertaining to wonder what the heck the censors at the licensees are going to do. :lol
True enough, but I'd say that she looks a bit more fair than that baby does.Who said Lauren was a natural blonde?
[post="1176965"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]
V posted:
Hell, I wasn't even thinking that...just that we had the same quote in mind. I read all your columns and print them off AFTER I write mine. This was the first time we matched quotes. -_-
I enjoy every single one of your columns. You are such a good writer. (nag nag...as you know) :lol: :lol:
Hell, I wasn't even thinking that...just that we had the same quote in mind. I read all your columns and print them off AFTER I write mine. This was the first time we matched quotes. -_-
I enjoy every single one of your columns. You are such a good writer. (nag nag...as you know) :lol: :lol:
V
verdantheart
Guest
Heehee, I figured as much.lenafan said:
AliasFan#1
Cadet
argh I had this typed out yesterday but when I went to reply the site went crazy and it didn't post . Here are my answers to the questions. Also please bear with me as this is my first time doing this and I can't remeber details all that well.
Why do you think it’s so much easier for Vaughn to talk to Kiera about Lauren that to Sydney?
I agree with SkyGirl5 that it's hard to talk to someone face to face and I think he used the situatuion to basically tell Syd what he was feeling. Also I think pretending to be a preist somehow helped him. It sounds a bit strange but maybe having to have a mindset of a priest somehow helped him to talk about it.
Do you think Kiera’s forgiveness helped Vaughn?
I'm not sure I think what helped more was that he told Syd what he was felling through her. It might have made him feel abit better but I think that knowing Syd was listening was more of a help.
Do you think that Vaughn and Sydney were naïve in thinking that Vaughn could turn Kiera? Why or why not? Do you think that Vaughn could have turned Kiera if he’d had more time? Or was it hopeless?
I put these questions together because I felt that it wasn't hopeless but needed more time. It looked like Kiera was scared of what her brother might do to her if she would up helping them and was having a internal struggle with that. It looked like her brother was a controling man.
Sydney knows what it is like to be in a family in which some members do terrible things. Think of what her mother has done--and what her father has felt compelled to do in response to what her mother has done. Do you think that she considered Vaughn’s need for forgiveness and then broadened that with regard to her family? (Yes, and I’m asking anyway.) :blink: Come again? I'm not good with the psycological stuff and have no idea what your trying to ask.
Who do you think the baby in the photo is?
I have no clue, but it would be friggin obvious if it were Nadia. Also Jack could be telling the truth (I highly doubt that) and it's either Katya's daughter or her other sister's daughter.
Do you think Jack knows who the baby is? If so, why do you think Jack gave the photo to Sydney? Is that careless of him?
I think Jack dose know who the baby is. I think he gave Syd the photo knowing that she most likely wouoldn't ask questions about it and if she did she would aceppt any answer he gave her so I don't think it was careless.
Do you believe Jack’s story about the photo (that could be true even if he found out who the baby is later on)? Why?
I don't think so he seemed a bit evasive at first. I think he knows something about it that he dosen't want Nadia to know so he lied to her in hopes she would NOT (edited to add that oops) presue it anymore.
Do you think Sloane knows who the baby in the photo is? Why do you think he wanted to keep the photo?
I think he either dose know something or he thinks he might know something and maybe wanted to find out who the baby was so he wanted to keep it.
Anyway that's my 2¢ on the subject.
Here are my answers to the questions. Also please bear with me as this is my first time doing this and I can't remeber details all that well.Why do you think it’s so much easier for Vaughn to talk to Kiera about Lauren that to Sydney?
I agree with SkyGirl5 that it's hard to talk to someone face to face and I think he used the situatuion to basically tell Syd what he was feeling. Also I think pretending to be a preist somehow helped him. It sounds a bit strange but maybe having to have a mindset of a priest somehow helped him to talk about it.
Do you think Kiera’s forgiveness helped Vaughn?
I'm not sure I think what helped more was that he told Syd what he was felling through her. It might have made him feel abit better but I think that knowing Syd was listening was more of a help.
Do you think that Vaughn and Sydney were naïve in thinking that Vaughn could turn Kiera? Why or why not? Do you think that Vaughn could have turned Kiera if he’d had more time? Or was it hopeless?
I put these questions together because I felt that it wasn't hopeless but needed more time. It looked like Kiera was scared of what her brother might do to her if she would up helping them and was having a internal struggle with that. It looked like her brother was a controling man.
Sydney knows what it is like to be in a family in which some members do terrible things. Think of what her mother has done--and what her father has felt compelled to do in response to what her mother has done. Do you think that she considered Vaughn’s need for forgiveness and then broadened that with regard to her family? (Yes, and I’m asking anyway.) :blink: Come again? I'm not good with the psycological stuff and have no idea what your trying to ask.
Who do you think the baby in the photo is?
I have no clue, but it would be friggin obvious if it were Nadia. Also Jack could be telling the truth (I highly doubt that) and it's either Katya's daughter or her other sister's daughter.
Do you think Jack knows who the baby is? If so, why do you think Jack gave the photo to Sydney? Is that careless of him?
I think Jack dose know who the baby is. I think he gave Syd the photo knowing that she most likely wouoldn't ask questions about it and if she did she would aceppt any answer he gave her so I don't think it was careless.
Do you believe Jack’s story about the photo (that could be true even if he found out who the baby is later on)? Why?
I don't think so he seemed a bit evasive at first. I think he knows something about it that he dosen't want Nadia to know so he lied to her in hopes she would NOT (edited to add that oops) presue it anymore.
Do you think Sloane knows who the baby in the photo is? Why do you think he wanted to keep the photo?
I think he either dose know something or he thinks he might know something and maybe wanted to find out who the baby was so he wanted to keep it.
Anyway that's my 2¢ on the subject.
V
verdantheart
Guest
Frankly, members of her family could use some forgiveness and I'm asking whether you think that Sydney is thoughtful enough to think this (the stuff with Vaughn) over and generous enough to grant forgiveness to those who could use it most--namely Irina, and (most timely) Jack. Sydney's track record in this area is that she is relatively free with forgiveness toward strangers (Shepard, et al) and stingy with those closest to her (Jack, Sloane)--therefore my comment (I'm asking anyway).AliasFan#1 said:Sydney knows what it is like to be in a family in which some members do terrible things. Think of what her mother has done--and what her father has felt compelled to do in response to what her mother has done. Do you think that she considered Vaughn’s need for forgiveness and then broadened that with regard to her family? (Yes, and I’m asking anyway.) :blink: Come again? I'm not good with the psycological stuff and have no idea what your trying to ask.
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"Vaughn has always loved Sydney more than Lauren, even if he did love Lauren on some level. I mean, come on, he did marry her after all. Vaughn is not the type of man to marry someone just because he feels like it. He married her because he loved her and was hoping to find happiness in his life again without Sydney."
However.. wasn't Vaughn brainwashed or at least I was led to believe he was during his time with Lauren. In the deleted scenes there was one with Syd that clearly stated vaughn had underwent conditioning of some sort. If that doesn't scream brainwashing then i dont know what does. However, I do agree that Vaughn is coming to grips with the fact that he killed somebody and i think it would be difficult for him to face Sydney with this. But i do not think Vaughn ever really loved Lauren, i think he feels responsible for being with her and claims that he loved her..but did he really? In one of the last episodes of Season 3 after he found out about the conditioning , he told Sydney he would take all responsibility for him moving on and being with lauren and I think this is a way of doing so. and although vaughn would not be the type to marry someone just because he feels like it..why would he in good sense and conscience move on from sydney after a relatively short period of time without a little coaxing (and by that i mean BRAINWASHING) on Lauren's part
However.. wasn't Vaughn brainwashed or at least I was led to believe he was during his time with Lauren. In the deleted scenes there was one with Syd that clearly stated vaughn had underwent conditioning of some sort. If that doesn't scream brainwashing then i dont know what does. However, I do agree that Vaughn is coming to grips with the fact that he killed somebody and i think it would be difficult for him to face Sydney with this. But i do not think Vaughn ever really loved Lauren, i think he feels responsible for being with her and claims that he loved her..but did he really? In one of the last episodes of Season 3 after he found out about the conditioning , he told Sydney he would take all responsibility for him moving on and being with lauren and I think this is a way of doing so. and although vaughn would not be the type to marry someone just because he feels like it..why would he in good sense and conscience move on from sydney after a relatively short period of time without a little coaxing (and by that i mean BRAINWASHING) on Lauren's part
AliasFan#1
Cadet
verdantheart said:Frankly, members of her family could use some forgiveness and I'm asking whether you think that Sydney is thoughtful enough to think this (the stuff with Vaughn) over and generous enough to grant forgiveness to those who could use it most--namely Irina, and (most timely) Jack. Sydney's track record in this area is that she is relatively free with forgiveness toward strangers (Shepard, et al) and stingy with those closest to her (Jack, Sloane)--therefore my comment (I'm asking anyway).
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Now that I understand I'm not sure maybe for the time being she has forgiven Irina and Jack but there seems to be more she can find out about htem that might make her hate them again and never forgive them.
AliasFan#1
Cadet
kalias said:
I can't remeber season 3 all that well but I never accept delete scence as cannon to the episoed/show. I can't remember if it was mentioned in the actuall (sp?) episoed but if it wasn't then he wasn't brainwashed which would be a better thing IMHO for the character. (sp?)
freckles3706
Cadet
kalias said:
I remember when they said that Vaughn was brainwashed...Dixon was the one that told Syd in the deleted scene (I think.) And maybe Lauren did brainwash him to get him to ask her to marry her sooner (did that make sense?), but that was never addressed yet and might not ever be. We we'll have to wait and find out. Although, I do agree that would explain how Vaughn was able to meet, date, fall in love, and marry Lauren is such a short amount of time. When you said "i do not think Vaughn ever really loved Lauren, i think he feels responsible for being with her and claims that he loved her..but did he really?" I think that he cared for her, but loved??? Good point who knows! And when you said "why would he in good sense and conscience move on from sydney after a relatively short period of time without a little coaxing (and by that i mean BRAINWASHING) on Lauren's part" I agree with you. But on the other hand maybe he knew that he would never love anyone as much as he loved Sydney, and after she "died" he just settled for anyone that accepted him the way he was, a heartbroken man that lost his one true love in life and just didn't want to be alone and was afraid that no one else would accept him the way that he was, so he jumped at the first opportunity of someone that did.
Megan
V
verdantheart
Guest
The problem is that this information comes from a deleted scene. Therefore, this scene did not happen. Therefore, there might have been "brainwashing," but there might just as easily have not. Is the brainwashing thing even more of a trapdoor for the character, relieving him of moral responsibility and shifting it to the ever-more-evil Lauren? Perhaps this scene was deleted for a reason. -_-kalias said:
Unless the subject is brought up again, it's pretty useless to discuss it--unless you have other compelling reasons to suspect conditioning.
starinmoon
Cadet
Random thoughts . . . Forgiveness . . . now there’s a theme that ports beautifully from Angel to Alias.
Hopefully the characters won't become as predictable as some of the Angel characters towards the end. :ointed look to Angel writers::
Hm . . . relatively short column . . . guess there wasn't too much to write about.
That may have something to do with the filler quality of this one.
Why do you think it’s so much easier for Vaughn to talk to Kiera about Lauren that to Sydney?
Holy whack, think of all the bull-honky-tonky that S/V have been through... How hard would it be to discuss relationship things with the person that has caused most of your baggage?
Do you think Kiera’s forgiveness helped Vaughn?
Um. No.
Do you think that Vaughn and Sydney were naïve in thinking that Vaughn could turn Kiera? Why or why not?
Yep. I don't think they took enough time to truly gauge her character. It was easy to see that while she was conflicted, she was scared of her brother more than living the rest of her life as a criminal.
Do you think that Vaughn could have turned Kiera if he’d had more time? Or was it hopeless?
I think that Kiera's fear of her brother immediately negates any opportunity to "turn" her. She has no enduring sense of loyalty, but rather a true fear of her brother and his actions.
Sydney knows what it is like to be in a family in which some members do terrible things. Think of what her mother has done--and what her father has felt compelled to do in response to what her mother has done. Do you think that she considered Vaughn’s need for forgiveness and then broadened that with regard to her family? (Yes, and I’m asking anyway.)
Um... I guess I'm not really sure what this question is asking. :
: Sorry.
Who do you think the baby in the photo is?
Does is really matter who I think it is? More Spy!Family. Possibly another Spy!Sister. More twisted plot lines to come. ::rubs hands together::
Do you think Jack knows who the baby is? If so, why do you think Jack gave the photo to Sydney? Is that careless of him?
Asking if Jack knows who the baby is, is like asking if he knew that Irina would betray the CIA. He KNOWS. Jack has his own motives and will reveal the truth at the most climactic moment possible. As for his giving Sydney the photo, I think that he was just trying to give Sydney as sense of the mother she never really had.
Do you believe Jack’s story about the photo (that could be true even if he found out who the baby is later on)? Why?
Meh. I've come to learn that you should never take one of Jack's stories at face value.
Do you think Sloane knows who the baby in the photo is? Why do you think he wanted to keep the photo?
Oh, Sloane... He's... Weird.
Hopefully the characters won't become as predictable as some of the Angel characters towards the end. :
ointed look to Angel writers::Hm . . . relatively short column . . . guess there wasn't too much to write about.
That may have something to do with the filler quality of this one.
Why do you think it’s so much easier for Vaughn to talk to Kiera about Lauren that to Sydney?
Holy whack, think of all the bull-honky-tonky that S/V have been through... How hard would it be to discuss relationship things with the person that has caused most of your baggage?
Do you think Kiera’s forgiveness helped Vaughn?
Um. No.
Do you think that Vaughn and Sydney were naïve in thinking that Vaughn could turn Kiera? Why or why not?
Yep. I don't think they took enough time to truly gauge her character. It was easy to see that while she was conflicted, she was scared of her brother more than living the rest of her life as a criminal.
Do you think that Vaughn could have turned Kiera if he’d had more time? Or was it hopeless?
I think that Kiera's fear of her brother immediately negates any opportunity to "turn" her. She has no enduring sense of loyalty, but rather a true fear of her brother and his actions.
Sydney knows what it is like to be in a family in which some members do terrible things. Think of what her mother has done--and what her father has felt compelled to do in response to what her mother has done. Do you think that she considered Vaughn’s need for forgiveness and then broadened that with regard to her family? (Yes, and I’m asking anyway.)
Um... I guess I'm not really sure what this question is asking. :
: Sorry.Who do you think the baby in the photo is?
Does is really matter who I think it is? More Spy!Family. Possibly another Spy!Sister. More twisted plot lines to come. ::rubs hands together::
Do you think Jack knows who the baby is? If so, why do you think Jack gave the photo to Sydney? Is that careless of him?
Asking if Jack knows who the baby is, is like asking if he knew that Irina would betray the CIA. He KNOWS. Jack has his own motives and will reveal the truth at the most climactic moment possible. As for his giving Sydney the photo, I think that he was just trying to give Sydney as sense of the mother she never really had.
Do you believe Jack’s story about the photo (that could be true even if he found out who the baby is later on)? Why?
Meh. I've come to learn that you should never take one of Jack's stories at face value.
Do you think Sloane knows who the baby in the photo is? Why do you think he wanted to keep the photo?
Oh, Sloane... He's... Weird.